R-pod Owners Forum Homepage

This site is free to use.
Donations benefit a non-profit Girls Softball organization

Forum Home Forum Home > R-pod Discussion Forums > Podmods, Maintenance, Tips and Tricks
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Important - check this every time you set up
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Calendar   Register Register  Login Login

Important - check this every time you set up

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 1819202122>
Author
Message Reverse Sort Order
techntrek View Drop Down
Admin Group - pHp
Admin Group - pHp
Avatar

Joined: 29 Jul 2009
Location: MD
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 9059
Post Options Post Options   Quote techntrek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Important - check this every time you set up
    Posted: 23 May 2014 at 8:41am
Good question.  It wouldn't cost more than the already-required LPG/smoke/CO detectors.  Only catch is it would only work while you had a firm grip on it, while standing on the ground outside.  Two possible solutions - add a large touch pad just above the power connection so you could plug in, press your hand to the pad and get a read-out just above it.  And/or redesign the door handle so it is insulated, and every time you grab it you get a readout above the handle.  There are issues - would it work if the sensor was wet or had road grime on it, what if you are using a plastic step-stool in front of the door, etc.  But there are solutions - put the sensor inside a cover, and maybe only putting it above the power connector is the better location even though it would only get checked once and not every time you get in the camper.

I could see a market for this, but it would take a ton of public education to generate the demand.  Manufacturers wouldn't add it to their campers unless forced by regulations or high market demand.
Doug ~ '10 171 (2009-2015) ~ 2008 Salem ~ Pod instruction manual
Back to Top
fwunder View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 04 Oct 2013
Location: New Jersey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1676
Post Options Post Options   Quote fwunder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2014 at 8:24am
This is a great thread. I ordered my Volt-Alert this morning.

One has to wonder why a Hot-Skin alarm system isn't built in as a standard.

Thank you very much for this information!

fred
2014 RPod 178 => MyMods and Buying Habits
2008 4Runner Limited 4.0-liter V6
Yes, those are wild ponies dining on grass while dumping tanks!
Back to Top
techntrek View Drop Down
Admin Group - pHp
Admin Group - pHp
Avatar

Joined: 29 Jul 2009
Location: MD
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 9059
Post Options Post Options   Quote techntrek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2014 at 8:18am
Worth repeating in short form, so nobody misses it.  

Even if you have an advanced surge/monitor installed in your camper (or the plug-in version outside), you still need to get a VoltAlert or one of the other models Mike listed previously.

You've spent more than $30 on other camping gadgets, and few of those gadgets can save your life like this one can.

BTW, I've added this topic to the "R-pod manual" thread.
Doug ~ '10 171 (2009-2015) ~ 2008 Salem ~ Pod instruction manual
Back to Top
jmsokol View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: 21 May 2014
Location: Maryland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 89
Post Options Post Options   Quote jmsokol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2014 at 12:36am
Originally posted by Cap-n-Cray

Would a surge suppressor have any effect in this situation?

There are basically two types of surge suppressors on the market. One is a surge-only type with MOV devices that will stop voltage spikes from the power line. These cost around $100 but will do nothing to prevent hot-skin shock from an open-ground situation. The second type is a voltage-monitor/suppressor type with a relay that will disconnect your RV from the power line if the ground is open or the voltage goes above or below preset limits. This should protect you from an open-ground condition at the pedestal, but not when Cost is between $200 to $300 for a 30-amp model. See my No~Shock~Zone article at http://www.noshockzone.org/rv-electrical-safety-surge-strips/

However, note that neither of these products will detect or disconnect you from a very dangerous mis-wiring situation I call a Reverse Polarity Bootleg Ground (or RPBG). An RPBG occurs with a DIY guy or old-school electrician added grounded outlets to old (pre-1970's) wiring by adding a jumper between the Neutral and Ground screws rather than running a new grounded wire. If the Hot-Neutral polarity is correct, then this creates a normal Bootleg Ground, which is a code violation but not immediately dangerous. However, if the Hot and Neutral "polarity" is reversed somewhere in the walls or conduit, then the Hot contact is now at 0 volts, while the Neutral and Ground are both at 120-volts. Anything you plug into an RPBG outlet will operate normally, except that the chassis is now at 120-volts with full circuit breaker amperage available. And there is NO tester on the market that will find an RPBG. See my articles at the RV Doctor's website at http://www.rvdoctor.com/2001/07/friends-of-gary-mike.html or in EC&M magazine where I bring the RPBG situation to the attention of the electrical contracting industry:
http://ecmweb.com/contractor/failures-outlet-testing-exposed

Note that a basic Non Contact Voltage Tester will easily find an RPBG mis-wired outlet in seconds, both before and after plugging in your RV power cord.
 
Where do you find RPBG outlets? Certainly not in new campgrounds with proper wiring. But I've heard reports of them in very old campgrounds and boat docks that never ran new wiring when upgrading to grounded outlets. And I've personally seen them in a number of home garages as well as pre 70's church wiring that's been upgraded to grounded outlets by well-meaning or misinformed "electricians", some of whom are actually licensed. So be very careful when parking your RV in your buddy's driveway and plugging into "garage" power. That seems to be where RPBG outlets happen the most.
mike@noshockzone.org
www.noshockzone.org
Back to Top
Cap-n-Cray View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 22 Feb 2014
Location: Bainbridge Is
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 121
Post Options Post Options   Quote Cap-n-Cray Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2014 at 11:30pm
Would a surge suppressor have any effect in this situation?
Cary
2014 RP-177
Back to Top
techntrek View Drop Down
Admin Group - pHp
Admin Group - pHp
Avatar

Joined: 29 Jul 2009
Location: MD
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 9059
Post Options Post Options   Quote techntrek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2014 at 10:04pm
Interesting info in your 2nd to last post.  Sounds like that would explain why the voltage between chassis and ground dropped as I turned off each breaker on the converter, and why I never could figure out what was "wrong".  I verified the wiring on the TT-30 outlet and the end of the cord (L5-30) connected to the camper both are right (lower-left to the ground pin is hot), and the ground to chassis looked good.

I've read of high tension line voltages higher than 500,000, both AC and DC.  I think 765k is one popular voltage.  I've seen demos where a fluorescent tube can be lit while standing under them, similar to a Tesla coil.  Amazing the voltage differential can be so great, I never knew you could get an actual shock.  Yes, this stuff is interesting/fun for me.  Cool
Doug ~ '10 171 (2009-2015) ~ 2008 Salem ~ Pod instruction manual
Back to Top
jmsokol View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: 21 May 2014
Location: Maryland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 89
Post Options Post Options   Quote jmsokol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2014 at 8:38pm
Originally posted by Tars Tarkas

An additional fun feature of these testers is that when you have them on while driving under high voltage electric lines -- the kind that run from tower to tower rather than pole to pole -- they will light up and beep.

TT


True, and that's because your body or vehicle is actually elevated to several thousand volts above earth potential while standing under power lines. No kidding. In fact, if you park your tow vehicle and RV directly under high-tension power lines (yup, those big ones) you can get a pretty good shock while standing on the ground in bare feet or wet shoes and touching the door handle. I've discussed this phenomenon with a number of Power Company Engineers who say that the current is supposed to be less than 5 mA at the normal 14 ft minimum wire distance to ground suggested by the utilities. However, since that power line could have up to 500,000 volts on it (yup, half-a-million volts), then you could get up to 10,000 volts bias on your vehicle (but at less than 5 mA current). So while the shock could startle you, it shouldn't be dangerous. I'm going to do an experiment this summer showing how a car spark plug attached to the bumper of an RV will spark continuously when connected to a ground rod. Too much fun...

Interesting stuff, eh?
mike@noshockzone.org
www.noshockzone.org
Back to Top
Tars Tarkas View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 14 Jan 2013
Location: Near Nashville
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1446
Post Options Post Options   Quote Tars Tarkas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2014 at 7:51pm
An additional fun feature of these testers is that when you have them on while driving under high voltage electric lines -- the kind that run from tower to tower rather than pole to pole -- they will light up and beep.

TT
2010 176
FJ Cruiser
Back to Top
jmsokol View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: 21 May 2014
Location: Maryland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 89
Post Options Post Options   Quote jmsokol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2014 at 7:08pm
Originally posted by techntrek

Something I didn't make clear in my first post, if any camper (or an appliance, or the shell of the power pedestal at a campground) tests positive it means 2 things.  Problem one, there is a fault somewhere which has electrified the exterior metal.  Problem two, the ground ("equipment grounding conductor") is not connected properly so it isn't doing its job to prevent problem one from killing you.  So if the tester gives you a positive reading you have 2 problems to fix.  Unplug the camper immediately without touching it, or the power pedestal, only the cord.


Just a few clarifications. First of all, while you might think there needs to be an internal hot-to-ground fault to produce the voltage in the first place, that's not entirely true. ANY appliance plugged into a power plug can have some current leakage that will produce a voltage of some level. But the AMOUNT of fault current is limited by UL Labs to less than 0.75 mA for an "ungrounded appliance" such as your iPhone charger, or less than 3.5 mA for a "grounded appliance" for something like your microwave oven. Generally, anything plugged into an electrical outlet and NOT malfunctioning will have its chassis migrate to around 1/2 of line voltage. So it's perfectly normal (but somewhat scary) to measure 60 volts AC on the body of your iPhone while plugged into its wall-wart charger. But because the maximum leakage current is supposed to be under 0.75 mA, that's right below the current threshold that most people will notice a shock.

On the other hand, a microwave oven (or any other grounded appliance) can leak up to 3.5 mA of fault current and still be considered "safe" by UL standards. This will generally produce the same 60 volts on the chassis if left ungrounded, but that 3.5 mA of current at 60 volts will produce a very noticeable, but not dangerous shock. And all these leakage currents are additive, so if your RV has a broken ground wire (EGC - Equipment Grounding Conductor) then everything plugged into your RV can leak more current to the chassis, and it's entirely possible to have 20 or 30 mA of leakage fault current available even if nothing is really "wrong". I call this a low-current (high impedance) fault, which can be painful but generally not deadly. Now, if your EGC is in place, then that 20 or 30 mA of current will be drained harmlessly to the grounding point of your service panel. However, if there's no ground path in your power cord and you touch anything metal on your RV while standing on damp ground or grass, then you can feel a very big shock. Now remember that 10 mA is a pretty good shock, and 20 mA will cause your hand to clamp down on a wire or ladder rung and not be able to let go, and 30 mA through your chest cavity for a few seconds almost guarantees heart fibrillation and death in minutes if CPR isn't immediately begun, so even these "low current" leakage voltages can get dangerous.

The second type of ground fault is a high-current (low impedance) short from a hot wire to the chassis inside an appliance or your RV's electrical system. This often happens when a screw is driven through a wire in the wall, or the insulation of a wire has worn through from road vibration, or a cable was pinched in an access door, etc... This type of high-current fault can reach circuit breaker amperage level, making 20 amps (or more) of current available at 120-volts. Without a low-resistance ground connection back to the electrical service panel, touching your RV is equivalent to sticking your finger in the light socket while standing in your bathtub full of water. Since a human body has somewhere around 1,000 ohms resistance with wet hands/feet, that 120-volts will produce upwards of 100 mA of fault current through your body, which is WAY above safe limits. So unless you're pulled off the energized chassis within a few seconds and CPR started within a few minutes, you're dead from electrocution.

Now, this hot-skin test isn't something you need to do every time you walk up to your RV, but I would certainly test every pedestal receptacle ground for improper voltage BEFORE plugging in your RV power cord. Then do a quick check on the chassis/skin of your RV with a NCVT such as a Fluke VoltAlert or Klein NCV-1 to make sure your extension cord ground is good. If there's a voltage on your RV skin/chassis while plugged in, then immediately turn off the pedestal circuit breaker, unplug your shore power connection, and contact the campground manager. After your initial test while making camp, you should only have to pull our your NCVT if you feel ANY kind of shock from your RV while still in camp at the same location. And the same goes for when you visit any of your RVing buddies at their campsites. If you feel ANY tingle at all while touching their RV, then pull out your trusty NCVT and do a hot-skin test for them. If it beeps and lights up, then they have a hot-skin condition of at least 40 volts, which could be a low-current leakage condition (shocks but doesn't kill you) or a high-current leakage condition (deadly under all damp conditions). But for sure they have lost their ground connection and need to power down and unplug immediately. You will NEVER read more than a few volts above earth potential on the skin/chassis of a properly grounded RV. If you do measure more than a few volts, then your ground is broken for some reason.  

Why doesn't your GFCI protect you from these situations. That's another story, but remember there's no GFCI required on a 30-amp TT-30 outlet, it's only required on the 20-amp outlet at the pedestal. 
mike@noshockzone.org
www.noshockzone.org
Back to Top
techntrek View Drop Down
Admin Group - pHp
Admin Group - pHp
Avatar

Joined: 29 Jul 2009
Location: MD
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 9059
Post Options Post Options   Quote techntrek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2014 at 2:00pm
Only try that in very cold weather, after the camper is unplugged.  Wink
Doug ~ '10 171 (2009-2015) ~ 2008 Salem ~ Pod instruction manual
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 1819202122>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.64
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz