ELECTRIC ?
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URL: http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15579
Printed Date: 03 May 2024 at 2:21am
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Topic: ELECTRIC ?
Posted By: hogone
Subject: ELECTRIC ?
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2023 at 1:57pm
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good day all. completely a non-pod question; actually a home ?. i have done some minor electrical stuff in my days, but by no means an engineer!! i am remodeling our master bathroom and need to move the gfi outlet. at present, it is a two outlet as i am assuming most are. pam would like 4 outlets, so my question is can you wire 2 of them together and next to eachother? hope that makes sense. jon ------------- Jon & Pam 2013 RP177 2010 F150 2017 HD Streetglide 2009 HD Lowrider CHEESEHEAD |
Replies:
Posted By: Pod People
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2023 at 3:44pm
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Not a licensed electrician, but I think it is the same scenario as the pod-one GFIC outlet in the circuit is enough. simply wire the second outlet in series with the existing gfic outlet and it will be protected the same. Travel safe and often Vann ------------- Vann & Laura 2015 RPod 179 https://postimg.cc/0zwKrfB9"> 
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Posted By: hogone
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2023 at 4:22pm
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thanks vann. thats what I thought. jon ------------- Jon & Pam 2013 RP177 2010 F150 2017 HD Streetglide 2009 HD Lowrider CHEESEHEAD |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2023 at 2:44am
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Yes you can. But you can't simply remove the existing single gang box unless you have access to run new Romex from wherever it's coming to that box from, or reach you new box location with the existing wire. Anywhere you make a connection you need to have an accessible junction box, you can't conceal the junction behind the drywall. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2023 at 6:41am
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The 2020 IECC seems to allow some limited splicing without a junction box, provided approved connectors are used. Here is an article that describes these connections: https://www.jadelearning.com/blog/splicing-nm-cable-in-walls-and-other-concealed-spaces/ - https://www.jadelearning.com/blog/splicing-nm-cable-in-walls-and-other-concealed-spaces/ But, be sure to check local codes which may still prohibit these splicing systems. ------------- Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2023 at 9:45am
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2014 NEC code cycle and onward you can use that thing for repair work only, not new wiring, which this is. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2023 at 10:11am
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It is allowed in existing buildings in limited remodeling situations. It would be worth checking with your local building department, if code compliance is a concern. As for the safety issue, if it is safe to use for repairs, then it is probably safe to use in the kind of remodeling you propose. A phone call to the local building department can save you a lot of headaches.
------------- Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2023 at 11:36am
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I would take out the duplex box, and replace it with an "old work" quad. Then just connect an ordinary outlet on the secondary side of the GFCI. ------------- bp 2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River 2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2023 at 1:15pm
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LA, once upon a time I was on one of the code review committees for the NEC, so I know how the process works. First, understand that the NEC is a prescriptive code, meaning that it's not open to adjustment or expansion based on logical arguments. It's not like the law, where you can make a logical argument based on interpretation of precedent, and maybe get that accepted in court. In this case the Code says that device can only be used for repairs. Nothing else. Just repairs. If you want to add or change anything to the Code you have to make a submittal and wait till the next 3 year cycle for it to get reviewed. And the Code changed in the 2014 cycle to restrict the use of that device to just repairs. That wasn't random, something had to have gone wrong for that to happen, because there are guys on the committee representing the manufacturers who would have got that proposed change tossed out unless there was a good reason. Now all that being said, the AHJ does have the final word and can approve (or disapprove) what he wants. In my experience though, AHJs rarely knowingly approve something that is a Code violation. No benefit to them to take the risk. They very often miss things though... Of course, if the work is being done without a permit, then the homeowner can choose to do what he likes (at the risk of being the defendant in a lawsuit if something goes awry later of course). ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2023 at 2:10pm
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OG, let's leave it at simply saying we disagree. I worked extensively with many so called prescriptive codes, especially elevators, and they are all subject to interpretation of the building officials, for better or worse, and some times before a court. Few codes are well written and most are loaded with ambiguity for inartfully chosen words. I still think it is worth a call to the local building inspector's office to see their local position. If they say no, then don't do it. ------------- Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2023 at 4:33am
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LA, of course the NEC is not in itself legally enforceable, the NFPA which administers it is a private entity with no legal standing. Enforcement lies with the AHJ in each community where it has been adopted. That entity has the final word.That's why they call it the authority having jurisdiction. Anyone is free to call their AHJ anytime and ask for a waiver of whatever Code provision you want. Who knows, you might get lucky. Where it seems we don't agree is whether or not Article 334.40(b) itself is not clear regarding the use of NM cable splice products. It is. They can be used for repair or in an exposed location for new wiring, not for new wiring when concealed inside a wall. BTW thanks for the insult to all the hard working people from industry, safety, science, engineering, contracting, and government who work hard and mostly thanklessly to filter, write and maintain the Code. I guess we need to add attorneys to the committees because without them we couldn't possibly write a proper English sentence. OTOH if we did add lawyers we'd never get anything done because they would argue with each other incessantly. I think we've beaten this proverbial horse to death. We don't even know if Hogone's existing Romex will reach his new box location. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2023 at 5:44am
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Oh, please, OG, people have been trying to write rules for all of written human history and very few have succeeded in writing with perfect clarity. Engineers and technical people are no more perfect than the rest of us. Not to be religious, but they are no more infallible than the pope. And, yes, when there is lack of clarity, it's the lawyers to whom people turn to fight over it. ------------- Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2023 at 8:20am
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LA, this is what you said yesterday: "Few codes are well written and most are loaded with ambiguity for inartfully chosen words". Today's version: "....very few have succeeded in writing with perfect clarity. Engineers and technical people are no more perfect than the rest of us." While the former is both inaccurate and insulting, the latter is certainly true, so I'll happily accept that modification to your previous "inartfully chosen words". ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: Pod People
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2023 at 9:55am
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I don't want to get in the middle of this words tangle, but............... I was a Licensed General Contractor in NC for 35 years and owned a residential construction company. I can ASSURE all of you that individual city/county inspectors have a LOT of latitude in interpreting the codes they are paid to enforce. I worked in multiple cities and multiple county jurisdictions and experienced firsthand differing interpretations of the same code depending on the inspector. codes are written, but inspectors decide what is acceptable or not depending on their interpretation of what is written. Travel often and safe Vann ------------- Vann & Laura 2015 RPod 179 https://postimg.cc/0zwKrfB9">
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Posted By: hogone
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2023 at 12:37pm
you guys (OG/LA) need to go out and smoke a big old doobie and relax man!! this was meant to be a friendly/simple inquiry. now maybe thats a subject we should debate!! jpp------------- Jon & Pam 2013 RP177 2010 F150 2017 HD Streetglide 2009 HD Lowrider CHEESEHEAD |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2023 at 1:53pm
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We're all good Hogone, LA and I actually respect each other's opinions, we're just old and get cantankerous at times. As for smoking a doob, the older I get the more I feel the need to keep the brain cells I have left over from having grown up in NorCal. So I don't smoke anything anymore unfortunately.... ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2023 at 3:31pm
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Yes, OG and I are just two argumentative grumpy old men, but we don't take each other too seriously. It's just a game of the "dozens." As for smoking, never have been a fan. I did inhale a few times, but it was almost half a century ago. ------------- Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
Posted By: hogone
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2023 at 4:46pm
nazereth concerts were awesome . jon------------- Jon & Pam 2013 RP177 2010 F150 2017 HD Streetglide 2009 HD Lowrider CHEESEHEAD |
Posted By: gpokluda
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2023 at 5:55pm
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Nazareth was pretty darn good, but the Meatloaf Bat Out of Hell Tour was what rock dreams are made of. ------------- Gpokluda 2017 Rpod 179(sold 2023) 2022 Escape 5.0TA 2022 Ford F150 4X4 3.5EB Triumph T120 |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2023 at 1:31am
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The Airplane. May 67. Coconut Grove, Santa Cruz. Strobes and mesc. Surrealistic Pillow hadn't been released yet, so it was my first time hearing Grace Slick belt out White Rabbit. An experience never to be forgotten, or equalled either. I guess at this point though Im mostly just glad I survived that crazy time.... ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2023 at 6:32am
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How many of you saw Country Joe and the Fish in 1967 in Golden Gate Park in San Francisco? It was a part of a free concert. ------------- Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2023 at 7:25am
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Missed that. At 13 my folks didn't consider me to be old enough for the summer of love in SF. Because it was local the Airplane in Santa Cruz was ok tho. Shouldnt have been. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2023 at 8:13am
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Back (semi) on topic. Never having looked at one of those Romex splices I was curious how they make electrical contact. Sure enough, as I suspected the one I looked at uses insulation displacement connections, like the connectors FR uses on rpod brake lines. We all know how well those work (not). The difference is that in a brake line it won't start a fire if it loses contact, although conceivably you could lose control of the trailer if one wheel brakes and the other doesn't. Inside a wall at 120Vac it could draw an arc. So personally I wouldn't use one even for repairs where it would be code compliant. Call me old school but I'd just make my splice with wire nuts in the existing 1 gang box and put a blank cover plate on it. Not trying to restart a debate, that's just my opinion, Folks can do what they want (and their AHJs approve).
------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: jato
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2023 at 8:49am
+1 Can't beat the wire nut for splicing. However another great splice we used on the golf course were the Scotchlock, underground/underwater packs. Used those for 30+ years, never had 1 failure. ------------- God's pod '11 model 177 '17 Ford F-150 4WD 3.5 Ecoboost Jim and Diane by beautiful Torch Lake "...and you will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free." |
Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2023 at 9:10am
I had to tow ours home from South Carolina with only one side working. With a good sway control system in place, it is noticeable, but not extreme. I made sure that I left plenty of room for braking so I would not have to slam on the brakes though. ------------- StephenH Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS |
Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2023 at 10:54am
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I also like the use of wire nuts and crimp on connectors but one must be careful to size them correctly to the wire you're connecting and tighten them carefully and fully. If the wrong size is used, or if it is not properly tightened, a wire can slip out and that can create arcing and fire and shock hazards. I've personally never used the WAGO style connectors, so I have in experience on how well they work. From the videos I've watched demonstrating their use, it appears that even an idiot like me could successfully use them. ------------- Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2023 at 11:03am
Did not see them there, but I did see them when they played Fort Ord in 1970 (I think it was 1970)... ------------- bp 2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River 2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2023 at 4:31pm
I think I might just cut the other brake line if I couldn't fix the open one while on the road. Probably better to have no trailer brakes than have one wheel grabbing. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2023 at 10:21pm
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I probably should have cut the other one, but I thought some braking was better than none. ------------- StephenH Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2023 at 3:14am
Sure, any mechanical splice can come undone. Probably wire nuts are worse than those Romex spices. If I'm making a wire splice I really need to have work no matter what (like in my airplane) it will be soldered anand coverd with heat shrink. But that's not Code compliant. So in household wiring you need the splice in a box so it's strain relieved, the surrounding flammable materials are separated in case of arcing, and most importantly so theres accessibility to fix problems that occur. That is what the Code requires with the exception that the Romex splice device is allowed for repairs. I expect that's because there isn't another good option for that situation. If you drive a screw through some Romex in your wall, you typically won't have enough slack to be able to repair it in a single box, you'd need two boxes, 4 wirenuts, and a new length of romex. A real PITA with more connections that could open up in future. I haven't used Wagos either. Not sure that theyd be any better than wirenuts though and it looks like they're take up a low of valuable box real estate. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |