Mysterious Electrical Issues
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Forum Name: I need HELP!!!
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URL: http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=14896
Printed Date: 15 May 2024 at 10:45pm
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Topic: Mysterious Electrical Issues
Posted By: Giernan
Subject: Mysterious Electrical Issues
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2021 at 12:39am
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Good evening. My husband and I purchased a 2021 192 about a month ago. It has the power inverter and factory-installed solar panel. We have it plugged into 30A at the house (properly wired), with a southwire 34930 surge guard 30A at the receptacle. For about a week I have been losing the lights at night if I leave them on. They dim over a few hours and then go out… as though they are running off the battery and it is drained. I’ve tried turning the inverter off and on again, and I tried to reset the breaker on the inverter but I can’t seem to make the switch do anything. Tonight I went to the camper to get something and it is 90% dead. AC is off, no lights work, fridge doesn’t work (I have propane turned off at the moment). Control panel for the solar panel is black, as is the thermostat. However. The outlets all work, the microwave clock is on, and the vacuum works. I reset the GFI outlet and flipped all the breakers off and back on. I don’t see any fuses inside the camper that are blown. The southwire says all is well with the shore power. What on earth is going on?? Also, I know there’s no manual for this, but could someone please explain conceptually how this cockamamie trailer’s electrical works? What requires the battery, even if I’m plugged in?? What runs off the 30A? What does the inverter DO in the overall schematic? Does the solar panel run anything or just charge the battery?
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Replies:
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2021 at 5:19am
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Lots of questions...
The basics: The lights, furnace fan and ignition, fridge controls and ignition, stereo, water pump, water heater thermostat and ignition all run off the 12v battery. The inverter gets it's power from the battery too, and runs some 120vac receptacles. There is an automatic transfer switch in the inverter which allows shore power to bypass the inverter to run those receptacles directly when shore power is available. The battery is charged by the converter which is under the electrical panel which in turn gets it's power from the shore power inlet. The solar also charges the battery through it's controller. When towing the battery also gets charged from your tow vehicle alternator. So the battery has 3 charging sources. The micro, a/c, and (I think) fridge 120V get their power from the shore power inlet directly but the fridge also needs 120v control power from the battery even when in 120vac mode. Sounds complicated huh? Not so bad once you get to know the systems involved but definitely more complex that your home wiring. So what you are seeing is a dead battery, that would leave outlets working long with the a/c and micro. So why is your battery dead even though you have shore power? First place to look is to see if the converter operating. There are both a breaker for 120vac in and fuses for 12v out. Check those. It can be hard to see if the fuses are blown. A multimeter would really help with that and multiple (pun intended) other troubleshooting steps. I suspect your solar is working fine but your converter isn't which would explain why you have 12v power in the afternoon but at night it dies. That still leaves the question of what is using all that battery power. While everything should work ok if you're on shore power and the converter is running I would still make sure all your 12v stuff and the inverter are off when your rpod is not in use, so you don't wind up with a dead battery again. One thing to check besides all the obvious stuff we've talked about if you can't figure out what's using 12v power is to check to be sure the breakaway brake pin hasn't accidentally been pulled. That would drag your battery down quickly. Its the pin attached to the cable on the trailer tongue that you loop through the tow vehicle hitch and connects your rpod battery to the trailer brakes if your trailer gets unhitched. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: Ghost1671
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2021 at 1:30pm
This information is very helpful. Would you say that the below are the basic components of solar? Is there anything that I am missing?
I'm still a little hazy about the interchangeability of the different types of batteries. ------------- Cassandra 2019 Rpod 190 |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2021 at 2:58pm
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The ac to DC converter doesn't have anything to do with solar. We all have one in our rpods, whether we have solar or not. If you go with Li batteries you will need to change it because Li batteries are charged differently. This is very important for safety because under no circumstances do you ever want to overcharge a Li battery. A fire can result.
The solar charge controller manages charging from the solar module(s). so needs to be set up for Li, many charge controllers can often be set for either lead acid or Li batteries The solar charge controller only manages solar charging, not tow vehicle charging. If you want to charge a Li battery from your tow vehicle you will need a DC DC converter for that. That's because normally when you connect your 7 way plug you are just connecting your tow vehicle battery directly to your trailer battery. That's ok as long as they are both lead acid but if the trailer battery is Li you need better control of the voltage you're charging at. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: Ghost1671
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2021 at 10:44pm
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Thank you!!! 😃 ------------- Cassandra 2019 Rpod 190 |
Posted By: john in idaho
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2021 at 8:06am
| Is the fridge on 12v or 110? |
Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2021 at 10:16am
Depending on your model of Rpod, yes. For example, the fridge in our 2017 RP179 can run on 12VDC, or 120VAC, or propane. Some newer models have fridges that are only 120VAC/propane. Which model of fridge do you have? ------------- bp 2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River 2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost |
Posted By: jato
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2021 at 8:00pm
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The smaller 3.5 cubic foot fridges are all 3-way. On the newer pods with the larger fridges they are all 2-way, either 120 electric or propane. ------------- God's pod '11 model 177 '17 Ford F-150 4WD 3.5 Ecoboost Jim and Diane by beautiful Torch Lake "...and you will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free." |
Posted By: Giernan
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2021 at 10:30pm
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This was tremendously helpful. Thank you! It's been sunny for a few days and all is well, so I assume you nailed the problem on its head and we have a converter problem. I have checked all the fuses and all were intact. The manual for the converter has a detailed troubleshooting process that we will follow tomorrow to see what we can track down. One thing I couldn't see easily is whether or not FR installed an inline fuse anywhere. Do you have any ideas on any non-obvious places to look? Thank you again!
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Posted By: Giernan
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2021 at 7:06pm
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Update and two questions
I’m still having this issue, and still have not managed to track down the source. The converter is working properly, assuming the troubleshooting instructions in the manual were correct. The converter is in fact sending 13.6 V to the battery as designed. At this point I have two additional questions. One: does the power INverter (not converter) have anything to do with the battery draining too quickly? A Facebook group I follow had a post that indicated if the inverter is turned on the battery will drain VERY quickly. I turned the inverter off a week ago and so far I haven’t noticed any effect. Two: Is there a minimum amperage size needed on the battery? I looked briefly and didn’t see one, but I’ll keep looking. I ask because I disconnected the battery tonight and took it up to AutoZone to have them test it, and they said it was not charged enough to test (it was only at 16%). This would make sense if the battery is only being charged by the solar panel, because it’s been overcast and raining all day. A gentleman at Auto Zone overheard my question and came forward to peek at the battery and suggested it was too small to run much of anything at all because it was only a 500 amp “super start” battery. He thought I would need a 750 amp battery. |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2021 at 8:44pm
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Your battery does sound like it's too small, but the units your friend at the Autozone suggested are wrong. Battery energy capacity is measured in amp hours, not amps. Amps is a measure of how much power can be provided, not how much energy can be provided. Amp hours tells you how much energy. Starters need lots of power, so batteries meant for starting engines are designed to make lots of amps. RVs need energy, so the best batteries for RV house loads are designed for deep cycling at relatively low amp draw.
Many people get dual 6V deep cycle golf cart batteries in order to have more amp hours available, especially if they are running an inverter.It's not the inverter itself that's consuming all the energy, it's the stuff people try to run with it. Dual 6V golf cart batteries wired in series will give you more than 200 amp hours nominal capacity. Since you should avoid cycling batteries too deep, in practice you can get around 100 amp hours. Those are the largest batteries that will fit on the to the rack of an rpod. They are heavy, so you need to keep the increase in tongue weight in mind, which could be as much at 70-80 lbs higher. But back to your charging problem, you need to sort that out before you get new batteries. If your converter is getting shore power continuously and is working properly your battery should not be getting drained, solar or no solar, so something is wrong. It's got nothing to do with your inverter, because that is turned off. So, either you have a big 12V load on somehere which is taking more current than the charger can produce or the charger isnt working right. I suggest you get a multimeter with a DC current clamp on so you can troubleshoot more deeply. Make sure you get a DC, not just an AC clamp on, which are more common. The Chinese ones are around 35-40$ on Amazon. Well worth the investment. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: Pod_Geek
Date Posted: 16 Sep 2021 at 2:19pm
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Assuming that 2021 192s don't come with Lithium batteries then the OEM battery system has been replaced. If so, two questions: 1) Has the solar charge controller been set to charge a lithium battery? 2) Is the OEM converter appropriate for a lithium battery? I have read (here and elsewhere) that when going to a lithium battery system a new converter is advisable. I'm not the expert here so let's see how they respond.
------------- 2020.5 R-Pod 195 Hood River 2018 RAM 2500 6.4L |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 16 Sep 2021 at 4:58pm
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I hadn't heard anything about FR putting Li batteries in rpods. Knowing where they sit in the market I can't see them incurring the cost to do that. I dont see anywhere in this topic where the folks with questions had changed over to Li.
But yes you need a different charging protocol for Li batteries. This is typically done by swapping the charger but there is tvlsst on mm e who has added device in between the charger and then battery. I can't recommend the latter approach. Some solar charge controller can be set for Li some can't. Check this manual for the ones FR is installing to be sure. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: Giernan
Date Posted: 16 Sep 2021 at 6:37pm
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You are correct - we have not switched to a lithium battery. Interestingly enough, I had considered looking into it until another user asked in this thread about battery interchangeability and your answer made me think that was more than I wanted to bite off right now, when our RPod is still new and we are still getting “the basics” set up. However, FWIW, the solar controller that forest river installed can be set to charge Li. That doesn’t fix the tow vehicle or converter compatibility issues though.
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Posted By: Pod_Geek
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2021 at 8:18am
This is the post I was going off of:
Apparently you were asking if you had a lithium battery rather than asserting that you do, eh? So I misread it. ------------- 2020.5 R-Pod 195 Hood River 2018 RAM 2500 6.4L |
Posted By: Giernan
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2021 at 12:08pm
| No sir/ma’m - Ghost1671 is a different commenter who was asking a related question on the same thread. :) |
Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2021 at 2:06pm
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It may be that Ghost671 did as I did an installed an LiFePO4 battery. The stock converter is made for Pb-Acid batteries, and is not suited for LiFePO4 chemistry. The charging profile is different. What model of power center do you have? That will make a difference in what to look for. The WFCO 8055 has a converter module that can be changed. Other models may not have a separate module. Here is something to consider. When you park your R-Pod and are not using it, do you have it plugged in? If not, do you disconnect the negative battery terminal? If not, do you have a battery disconnect switch that you turn off? The reason for the questions is that there are phantom power draws that you might not be aware of draining your battery when you are not using your R-Pod. One is the TV booster. If you are not watching TV, turn it off. A second is the LP/CO detector. It can't be turned off as it is hard-wired with no breaker or switch. This is a safety item. The only way to stop it from drawing power is to turn a disconnect switch off or disconnect a terminal. A third is the electronics for the AC/furnace and the refrigerator. These are always powered, even if they only draw a minuscule amount of current. These all will serve to drain the battery if it isn't disconnected or if the R-Pod is not plugged into shore power. Even a 15A outlet will serve if you are not running the AC or other high-draw items. The goal is to keep your battery charged. Last, I don't know if the solar circuit has any drain to it if there is no sunshine. You will need someone more experienced with solar to answer that one. Also, if you are not boondocking, you don't really need a huge battery. You need one adequate to power the trailer during the short times when you are not connected to shore power or your tow vehicle. If you have shore power, use that to run the refrigerator. If not, then use propane. Trying to run the refrigerator on 12V will drain the battery very quickly (ask me how I know  ).------------- StephenH Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS |
Posted By: Pod_Geek
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2021 at 2:33pm
Doh. Well never mind then. ------------- 2020.5 R-Pod 195 Hood River 2018 RAM 2500 6.4L |
Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2021 at 2:56pm
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I was under the impression that FR doesn't install ANY batteries; it's a dealer-installed feature. That kind of makes sense, because you don't really know how long a trailer is going to sit around waiting to be shipped, and then shipped. I would expect that when it becomes cost-effective, savvy dealers may offer LFP batteries as an option. ------------- bp 2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River 2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2021 at 9:51pm
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Li batteries are cost effective now if you do a lot of boondocking. Many upscale expedition style RVs come with them now. The cost issue is not the batteries as much as it is the charging circuitry. That can be an expensive proposition if you need to convert it, as we have to do with rpods. Also pretty involved for an inexperienced owner.
As for solar charge controller drain, that is generally very small or zero, most are set up so their electronics are powered from the solar side not the battery side. If there's no solar energy available they don't need to work after all. But I do agree that disconnectinv the battery is a good idea, as long as you remember that you can't leave lead acid batteries disconnected for long periods. They will self discharge just sitting there, so you need to put them on charge at intervals ranging from a few weeks to a few months depending on the battery and the temperature (high temps more often than cold , deep cycle batts more often than auto batteries). In this case though it sounds like the battery is going down even though the rpod charger is running which suggests that there might be a big load on somewhere, not just a small parasitic draw. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 18 Sep 2021 at 8:59am
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Check the brake emergency disconnect switch to make sure the pin is inserted all the way. It could be that the pin was pulled which would be activating the brakes at full power constantly. Use chocks and stabilize to make sure that the RPod does not roll. Don't use the disconnect switch. That is a big load that will drain the battery. I'm not saying that this is the case, but it is something to check.
------------- StephenH Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS |
Posted By: wthoms2000
Date Posted: 28 Sep 2021 at 11:28pm
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I believe you still need 12V to run the control panel under propane though. ------------- Porta Poddy Wil and Luz, Orange County, CA 2017.5 179 HRE 2021 Ranger XLT FX4 REDARC Brake Controller |
Posted By: JR
Date Posted: 29 Sep 2021 at 6:56am
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+1 wthoms2000 and also you need 12v to run the furnace so if you have totally drained batteries you can't run your fridge or furnace. ------------- Jay 179/2019 |
Posted By: Giernan
Date Posted: 29 Sep 2021 at 8:56am
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I appreciate all the brainstorming. Still not resolved - We have a drip charger connected directly to the battery at night now, which is keeping it charged enough to keep things running if I’m not working late in there. If I’m working and have all the lights on (and the speakers for music), I drain the battery by about 2am.
It seems like the only thing left it could be is a bad battery. I took the battery to autozone once to test but the charge level was too low for their tester to work. We’ve double checked the brake cable. We’re definitely not running the electrical outlets off the inverter. Still plugged into shore power. Tested the output from the converter and it was fine. No blown fuses, no tripped breakers. During the day the button on the sensor panel inside will say the battery is 3/4 charged. But before we buy another battery, I am wondering… is there any way to test the actual load being pulled from the battery? Not what the battery is capable of, but what is actually being used? Just thinking through this, either there’s a problem with the battery getting power to charge, storing power to be used later, or provding more power than it can handle. I feel like we’ve run through the tests on the battery getting power and that’s fine. We haven’t been able to effectively test it storing power, but my assumption right now is that this is the problem. But I would love to test whether the power the battery is unreasonable. Googling isn’t working (or my search terms are wrong) because all I’m getting is how to test the voltage the battery can provide - not what it IS providing. |
Posted By: john in idaho
Date Posted: 29 Sep 2021 at 9:28am
| For $10 you can have your own volt meter. A fully charged 12v battery should read 12.6 or.7. Unhook the neg terminal and with the meter set on amps, measure the current thru the neg terminal. With the meter connected, start turning off breakers until you find the one that reads 0. that circuit is where your drain is. Let us know what that is. |
Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 29 Sep 2021 at 9:43am
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A clamp-on ammeter that you can get will do that for you. You need to get one that will test both AC and DC amperes. I have a Southwire AC/DC one that works well for me. Here is one similar to mine which I purchased at Home Depot. https://www.southwire.com/tools-equipment/test-measurement/400a-ac-dc-clamp-meter-with-true-rms-built-in-ncv-worklight-and-third-hand-test-probe-holder/p/p-65031840 - https://www.southwire.com/tools-equipment/test-measurement/400a-ac-dc-clamp-meter-with-true-rms-built-in-ncv-worklight-and-third-hand-test-probe-holder/p/p-65031840 As for the sensor panel, disregard the numbers. Look at the boxes around the lights. The numbers are for tank levels. The letters refer to battery charge. If all are lit, then the battery is being charged. Then you have good, fair, low (if I recall correctly). To get a good reading, you need an actual meter. I have a meter that monitors voltage and amperage that I installed for use with the LiFePO4 battery. One can also be used for Lead-Acid batteries. It just has to be set accordingly. The meter I installed is this one: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07FGFFHC6/ - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07FGFFHC6/ It is probably what would serve you best to get your electrical issues sorted out. There are other models, but this one is very reasonable in price and will work well. See my mods for pictures of my installation. ------------- StephenH Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2021 at 5:59am
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Yes, a multimeter with clamp on DC current measurement is what you are looking for. If you clamp that on one of the cables at the battery terminals you can see directly what is going in and out of the battery. If you turn off all your loads that should be the charging current, and if you turn off all your charging sources that should be your load current. If you leave both loads and charging on you will see the net current flow in or out of the battery depending on whether the loads are larger or smaller than what the charger is putting out.
What you will be seeing is current flow (in amps) at that moment. To understand capacity issues you have to look at battery current flow over time which is measured in amp hours. For that you'd either need to estimate it by the current measurement from your meter multiplied by how many hours you are discharging or charging, or you'd need to install a battery monitor, but let's take it one step at a time. I bought this inexpensive multimeter pon Amazon, works fine and gets the job done. https://www.amazon.com/KAIWEETS-Multimeter-Auto-ranging-Temperature-Capacitance/dp/B07Z398YWF/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?adgrpid=54938837486&dchild=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwwNWKBhDAARIsAJ8Hkhfxo9FsOEDhbCDyUJGsJrT_1ee362LTNu8DAd5nl8oQ-142AVSVbooaAkFsEALw_wcB&hvadid=274898351497&hvdev=m&hvlocphy=9008824&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=b&hvrand=604478120698989029&hvtargid=kwd-298724042089&hydadcr=12187_9467456&keywords=dc+amp+meter+clamp&qid=1632998438&sr=8-3 - multimeter ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: Ben Herman
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2021 at 4:21pm
| Going back to the beginning of your post, I believe you said that this was a new unit, purchased within the past few months. I'd haul it back to the dealer and let them solve it. |
Posted By: SC for Huskers
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2021 at 6:09pm
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+1 ------------- Happy Traveling, Tom 2017 172pod 2011 F150 STX |