Obviously, would not normally want to do this, but is the weight distribution (thinking anti-sway etc) of the R-Pods (177 in my case) designed so the weight is still appropriately tongue heavy?  The water tank is behind the axle.

If your tongue weight is less than 10%, or 11% if your cautious like I am, of the trailer weight then shift some gear forward in the trailer. When you get to that point one of us can explain how to know when you've moved enough stuff to get your tongue weight where you want it without having to weigh again. 

The individual axle weights can also be used to check against your TV and trailer max axle load limits which are on the drivers door jamb and on the front driver's side of the trailer. That and checking the max combined gross vehicle weight against the total rig weight and trailer actual against max weight will tell you whether everything is within your various TV and trailer load specs. 

I've even weighed our trailer at the two wheels and the combined measurement was remarkably close to what I got at the truck scale.  I attribute the difference to the difference low gravity where I live.  We've mined so much here that the earth is much less dense as compared to the location of the scale where gravity tends to be high. 

Creative? Tow vehicle weight with trailer - TV weight without trailer = tongue weight. It ain't rocket science, as they say. But if you want to spend $70 on a Sherline that will certainly work fine too. There is also the bathroom scale and board method if you want to try that.  The main thing is to know what you actually have, once you've got that info no need to repeat it. 

We discussed something similar in this thread.

http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=13572&PN=5&title=have-you-weighed-your-180 - http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=13572&PN=5&title=have-you-weighed-your-180

At some point, you are gonna have to weigh your trailer.  I weighed my rig as normally loaded, ready for a trip.  As I pulled away, I got the actual axle weight.  Then, I came back and weighed my SUV. That let me calculate the tongue weight for my R-Pod.  Once I got that, I crawled under it and started measuring.  Shockingly clean for a 4-y.o.  You can get the center distance for each tank by using the corners the tank has.  From the measurements I made I built a spreadsheet that will calculate tongue weight with various loads in various places.  One hundred pounds of food/clothing in the front can counterbalance a lot in the rear.  If you want it, send me a PM.  You'll have to adjust the distances for your 177.  If you start with a base loading that you always use, then the spreadsheet will give reliable changes to that base case.  And, you only need to weigh the 'Pod once. 

I had no idea a tongue scale could be had as low as $70. 

So your 177, like mine, has a thirty gallon tank, I think.  

At eight pounds a gallon for water that would be only 240 pounds from just behind the axels toward the back of the trailer. And it's low down.   

Is that such a big deal, when it's low under the trailer and spread out over a few feet?  

I think not, and I have not experienced any difficulty when towing due to the full water tank. 

 I do put some of my heavier stuff up front under the dinette seat to help offset a bit, and I pull with a ford superduty f250, but seek to have the trailer balanced with more weight on the tongue than the ass end of the trailer. 

I also always have some water in the front mounted black water tank that helps balance things since it never fills up.   

I have towed at 75 mph a lot, with no problems.  

If you are pulling with some small Suv, then yeah, you might have a concern, but if so perhaps you need a real tow rig.  Otherwise, fill up the water tank and go and have fun.  

Try this, fill up your water tank and see if you can pick up your trailer off of the jack by hand.   If it's doable, then the back of your trailer is too heavy.  Stay safe, happy camping.  

You're joking, right? How many folks on here have a F250 super duty they tow an rpod around with? Let's please get this right so we don't kill someone.

First, trailers with too low tongue weight in general are subject to sway. It doesn't matter if the weight is low or high, its the front/rear distribution that's critical.

Look at this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2fkOVHAC8Q - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2fkOVHAC8Q

Second, there are documented cases of rPod sway at tongue weights around 10% of trailer weight or less. I did a post on this a couple of years ago.  

Third, rpods are light trailers, and 30 gallons (250 lbs not 240 btw) is a lot of weight in one. In my 179 moving 30 gallons from the fresh to the gray tank changes the tongue weight by 3%, which is a lot considering that the target range is only 10-15%. 

Fourth, even if you have a heavy tow vehicle, you really don't want your trailer fishtailing around on you driving down the road. 

So, yes, getting this right is a big deal, unless you enjoy the idea of winding up facing backwards on a freeway with a semi heading straight at you. 

And so, wise one (you think), you missed my points about towing and water in the tanks to balance the trailer, to just attack me because I have great tow rigs.  

And yes, since you are so precise, water does weigh 8.34 pounds a gallon.  I roughed it off in what I wrote.  Feel better now?  Who cares besides you??  

I told the query  to balance the trailer and go forward with no worries.  I do it all the time as do thousands of Rpod owners without your input.

You decided to pick on me.  So now it's my turn.

You tend to use data in place of common sense in most of your posts.  

My point was, and try to get this in your cranium, that no matter what you pull with, be it a super duty ford or a suv, if you balance the load it will pull just fine. It might now stop just fine.  With a full water tank on board and some weight up front a balanced Rpod is no problem, mon.  

I use a friction sway bar and do also pull with an f150.  

If the trailer is balanced, then it is only stopping time with a load behind you that truly matters. Big trucks like my superduty Ford take care of that and I'm sorry you think I don't know what I'm talking about because I tow with a big truck. And a half ton. 

I truly take exception that you think I would give advice here that would cause some person harm.  I am here on occasion to help folks who have honest questions, you are her to spout your pseudo-intellectual dogma.

Your advice surely is under scrutiny.  Not mine.   

No one wants a trailer to start whipping around behind them.  That will happen no matter what the tow vehicle if the trailer is not balanced.  

Too many people pull Rpods with tiny tow rigs that can't handle any sort of quick emergency style stops, or if the trailer moves side to side in the wind it jerks the tow vehicle.  

Maybe that's why Forest river is building bigger trailers these days and have seemingly left those beautiful little trailers like my 177?  

Many folks were pulling them with little vehicles that could barely pull them, but not stop them, nor deal with it well when they swayed.

My point, and it was a fair and honest answer to the question, was to haul with a full tank with no fears, and mitigate it with some water up front in the black tank, and some additional weight inside the trailer up front. 

A trailer will sway, when it does sway, no matter the tow rig up front, but a strong rig up front can save the day, genius.  

1) F250's are great tow vehicles. Awesome. Excellent choice.

2) Lots of folks are trying to tow around too much trailer with too little tow vehicle. Specifically, the 3500 lb tow SUV category is marginal at best even for a lighter rPod.

3) No one wants to cause anyone harm.

4) The density of water is 8.34 lbs per gallon and unless you're one of us engineering/pilot nerds putting together a weight and balance spreadsheet that isn't significantly different from 8 (that's why I put it in parentheses). 

5) You have to be more careful to get everything right when you are towing with a light tow vehicle rather than a heavier one.

6) A heavy tow vehicle can save a sway incident by remaining planted even when the trailer is out of control. 

7) Trailers need to have their weight properly balanced so they don't sway, even if you are running a heavy tow vehicle. 

8) If your tongue weight is too low you can add some weight up front to increase it (as long as you don't exceed the max gross weight of the trailer). 

9) If you can lift your rPod's tongue by hand then the tongue weight is too low.  

Good so far? What don't we agree on? Here's what we might or might not disagree on, it's really only 3 items I think. If I'm wrong or missed something let me know.

1) The minimum tongue weight we should be shooting for is about 10% of trailer weight. Lots of real world info and recommendations on that one, including incidents of sway on rPods. Do you agree or disagree?

2) You can let the tongue weight be lower if the weight is low in the trailer (like in a water tank). I haven't seen anything suggesting that so I disagree.

3) You can check if the tongue weight is OK by trying to lift the trailer and not being able to. You described the opposite test (not OK if you could lift the tongue) which is certainly true, but not particularly useful for someone to decide they're good to go. So, if the implication is that someone can use this as a test to see if they are OK rather than actually getting a tongue weight, I disagree. Most folks will give up at around 100 lbs or less. A loaded 177 is going to be upwards of 3000 lbs. So you want the tongue weight 300 lbs plus. 

As for having different methods for working out solutions to problems, that is for sure true. I'm an engineer. I know, its kinda weird, but we like to do math for fun. Sorry about that, born that way, can't change it. You are of course free to ignore my posts if it bothers you. 

I am sure everyone on this board wants to travel safely and not put him/herself or others in danger.  We all agree that trailers must be properly balanced with an absolute minimum of 10% of the weight at the tongue or one can be exposed to very dangerous trailer sway.  How one achieves the balance is not important, provided they succeed.  

The same is true of the gross weight of the trailer and TV when fully loaded.  To exceed the limits is dangerous.  For those without towing experience, sometimes they are confused by the salad of letters that are used to define weight measurement terms.  The input from this board has been very helpful, I believe, in informing people of the importance of not exceeding the capacity of one's TT and TV.  It has certainly helped me.  

Trailer towing is inherently dicy, especially with the ball hitch/tongue connection as compared to a "5th wheel" system.  It requires everyone to use care in making sure both balance and load are within safe limits.  If one is not willing to inform him/herself on the basics of load and balance, perhaps that person should get some help or not tow.

I think we can all agree on the following:

1.  Trailer balance is critical, keeping at an absolute minimum 10% of the weight on the tongue (where I'm unclear is what the maximum is - apart from the hitch limit - for proper balance, but my Zen approach is to not let it go too high either, or it ain't balanced.  Maybe we need to discuss the upper limit percentage.)

2.  The gross weight limits of the TT and the TV should never be exceeded, indeed, it's probably best to have as wide a margin of safety as your pocket book and circumstances allow.

3.  Keep the center of gravity as low as possible in both the TT and the TV by putting the heavy stuff down low instead of in the upper storage cabinets.

4.  Drive a reasonable speed for conditions.  Driving at 75 with a trailer can be done, but if something goes wrong, none of us have the ability to react sufficiently fast to correct the problem.

5.  When road/weather conditions are dangerous, don't drive in them.

All of the participants in this forum have made important contributions to the load, balance, and towing safety issue.  We need to keep it up and keep each other informed, especially those new to trailer towing.

+1

Having ended up facing the wrong way on I80 with oncoming big rigs, I can fully appreciate the information given here. In my case, it wasn't sway but ice with a crosswind. However, the end result was the same.

Yes, let's discuss that upper tongue weight percentage (rule of thumb is 15%).

Seems to me that it can only be there for three reasons:

To limit structural stress on the trailer tongue

To limit load on the ball mount

To limit load and axle weight imbalance on the tow vehicle.

Class IV ball mounts which most of us have are good for 8000 lb trailers so I don't think that is going to be the limiting factor with an rPod.

Structural stress on the tongue is an issue but when I looked at the rPod frame structural stress it was significantly less in the tongue area than at the axle to frame attachment, so going for a higher tongue weight could help distribute that stress better. We know there have been problems with axle loading on the "narrow" rPods, and shifting weight forward would help that too. 

That leaves the tow vehicle load. For me, with a 5000 lb/500 tongue weight rated SUV I can't increase the tongue weight any more than it is already, but for all you folks with heavier more capable tow vehicles I don't see any good reason not to move weight forward in the trailer and load the tongue a bit more. I wouldn't go crazy but if your TV can handle it, why not let it go up to say something around 20%, which would be about 750 lbs on a 3800 lb max weight rPod. 

I don't think I'd do that and also run a WDH though, as the combination would place a significant downward stress on the tongue. But if you have a big TV and aren't running a wdh anyway, why not?  

Just initial thoughts, I certainly might have missed something... 

Another thing to check is the payload of your TV. By taking gear out of your RPod and moving it to your TV, you might find that you exceed your payload when you factor in the weight of all of the passengers, gear, and tongue weight of the trailer. The sticker inside the driver's side door should give you all of your specs (look for curb weight and GVWR)

This is in addition to water tank placement, gear loading, tongue weight etc.  

Bottom line, weigh it. Public scales don't lie. If you already have weighed without filling the fresh water tank no problem. You don't need to weigh it again. Just add 250 lbs to the total trailer weight for the 30 gal tank. 

You can also recalculate your tonque weight without going back to the scale. The full tank changes tongue weight according to the formula:

250 lbs X distance from trailer axle to tank / distance from trailer axle to hitch. Add if the tank is in front of the axle, subtract if behind.

Same formula applies for full  (or partially full) 30 gal grey and black tanks (and for any other loads in lbs you want to add in the trailer). 

Perfect! Add a half gallon of olives and Triple Sec and a decal on the back - "Shaken, Not Stirred"

Bet you would get more tours than normal!

Carry on...

EDIT: So sorry. Dumb suggestion. Don't put olives in tank. Add after. Sorry.

Originally posted by jato Offgrid helped me with this about 3 years ago as I also tow a 177 and at that time, with a Ford Explorer.  Tongue weight is critical as has been discussed.  I was at the nominal range 240 lbs on my hitch, the 177 weighs in at 2440 empty and about 2700 with a full tank of water (and HW tank) putting me on the edge of safety.  By proper loading we were able to increase tongue weight to the point that there were no problems towing even with a full tank of water using only a Curt anti-sway bar.  So here we are, 9 plus years later, 36,000 miles on 2 sets of tires, a bit older, grayer, and hopefully a bit more humble and wiser.

What did Offgrid say that helped you?  I'd like to know since I tow a 177.

Easy fix, move some cargo forward (or have dual batteries or propane cylinders) should take care of the problem. Best thing, load up, tank up (if you plan on boondocking) and weigh the trailer and tongue, then you'll know. 

What are your names again?  I forgot!  LOL!

Thanks offgrid and jato.