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Changing times

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Post Options Post Options   Quote offgrid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Changing times
    Posted: 16 Jun 2022 at 9:10am
Good questions. My main point with the article was to establish that there will be plenty of storage capacity embodied in EVs on as they proliferate as expected.

We do have some idea what the answers to your questions are going to be. First, the storage capacity is owned by the vehicle owner, at least in the EV ownership model that we expect to be most comment in the US. In some other markets many China 3rd party battery ownership is quite comment, as we've discussed in this forum before.

Regardless of who owns the storage that investor will expect to be compensated for offering access to his asset. This is capitalism in action after all. The mechanisms for doing that are already in place in many of the US electricity markets. Day ahead, hour ahead, frequency support, and time of use markets exist now. The pricing in these markets is nodal, meaning that pricing is specific to the level of congestion at different geographic locations on the grid. The prices at some of these congested nodes on some hot summer afternoons can be very lucrative if you have capacity available.

So the markets exist for electricity to be bought and sold to allow production and demand to balance out. Not only does this apply to energy producers but there are also demand side aggregators selling "negawatts" via load reduction. You can sign up to allow your air conditioner to be set back remotely under certain conditions for a given time, and get paid to do it. "Negawatts" of load reduction are the equivalent of bringing up a peaking plant to produce more energy as far as the grid managers are concerned.

Dispatch of on site battery storage works the same way. Several companies including Tesla, have business entities set up to do exactly that. So far Tesla is just doing it in a trial basis with their Powerwall customers, but the extension to EVs with bidirectional chargers is the obvious next step.

As for battery life, it is expected that Li batteries will outlive the vehicles they are in so that shouldn't be an issue. More of an issue will be to assure that the vehicle owner isnt stranded because his battery has just been fully discharged by the utility right before he wants to go somewhere. Tesla is addressing that with their Powerwall systems by allowing the homeowner to set the allowable discharge level based on his expected usage. So if you are planning a long trip the next day you should be able to opt out of the capacity program prior to your departure.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote StephenH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2022 at 7:00am
Quote from the Forbes article: "'It really needs to change the behavior of the consumer to be able to harness the synergies between mobility and wind and solar,'" [Francisco Boshell] And another quote: "There are other driver-based obstacles, such as concerns about range anxiety and battery health in a vehicle that exchanges power with the grid."

What would be the impact on battery life of such an interconnected battery in a vehicle? How much shorter would be the life of the battery? Who would bear the cost of replacing the battery when it is no longer serviceable? Would the utility company then be responsible at least in part to replace the batteries in vehicles so used?

There are lots of details that would need to be worked out before such a system is implemented.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote offgrid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2022 at 5:50am
"Though EV battery storage will be a major element of any electric grid storage system, much, much more will be needed beyond the capacity of EV vehicles"

That is incorrect. On what do you base that statement? See below.



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Post Options Post Options   Quote lostagain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2022 at 5:42am
Bottom line, lithium/nickel batteries alone can't do the job.  The supples of lithium and nickel are limited and the extraction process is very damaging to the environment.  Three quarters of the known lithium deposits are in Chile, Argentina, and Bolivia, all in very fragile ecosystems.  Nickel mining is also problematic.  Most comes from Indonesia, Australia, and Russia.  Low grade nickel ore is open pit mined with terrible environmental damage.  Though EV battery storage will be a major element of any electric grid storage system, much, much more will be needed beyond the capacity of EV vehicles.  We must keep an open mind to all viable and environmentally responsible methods for energy storage.  Putting all our eggs in one basket will not end well for humanity nor our planet.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote offgrid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2022 at 5:13am
The issue with that discussion like much of the discussion around grid storage, is that there is still a lot of old thinking. The assumption is that storage projects need to be implemented in an industrial scale. The electrical utilities think that way because that is what they do.

For the same reason utilities have always been hostile toward distributed renewables because they don't get revenue prom their energy production. Of course.

But as both solar and wind deployment and demand side management (DSM) have demonstrated, smaller scale projects, down to the residential scale, can in aggregate provide a very significant contribution to our energy mix.

Applying that same concept to energy storage will strongly favor supplying most of that requirement with the batteries in the EVs themselves because they have already been paid for. That makes them far more economical than grid scale alternatives, and favors use of Li batteries (because that is the energy storage technology of choice for mobility applications) for grid storage purposes as well. And the amount of storage available in EVs will dwarf that deployed in utility scale projects.

Put another way, why manufacture and deploy centralized grid energy storage when the EV storage capacity is already deployed? The utilities will have to either climb on board the train or get out of the way.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote lostagain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2022 at 3:50pm
Lithium certainly has a jump start on other electron storage systems, but there are other ideas being developed.  Here are a few of some other storage possibilities:
The site is filled with other discussions of alternate storage systems.  What's clear is that we can and will solve the problem of energy storage, if we make the collective decision to do it.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote offgrid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2022 at 6:18am
Nothing is perfectly green but some technologies come very close. I chose a career in PV because it clearly had the potential to be one of those, and now indeed it is, 40 years later.

If you look today it is about the only energy generation technology not subject to NIMBY. No one minds if solar is installed on their neighbors roof. Everything else raises objections, including wind turbines and worst of all nuclear.

But even solar installations can have some negative impacts. My personal gripe is installing large PV projects on farmland as is being done in many parts of the country because it's cheaper than using rooftops or brown field sites.

EV batteries, like electronic device batteries, have a key criteria which is the requirement for high energy density, because they are being dragged around in the vehicle/device. Hence the success of Li technologies over the past 30 years.

Grid energy storage doesn't have that constraint, it really doesn't matter much what a stationary battery weighs or how much space it takes up.

So why are most of the grid energy storage systems being deployed based on Li batteries? Because the technology is well developed and there cost effective products are available at an industrial scale. That's because of high demand, first for laptops, cell phones, and other electronic devices later for electric power tools, and now for EVs.

There are potentially much better battery technologies for grid storage. One interesting one is the flow battery, the most promising of which which uses iron and salt water as it's active materials. Can't get a whole lot more benign than iron and salt.

But flow batteries are big, they are deployed in shipping container sized building blocks, their footprint is measured in MWH per acre. There hasnt been a market demand for this kind of product until recently, as grids in some regions are reaching their maximum renewable penetration without storage.

Will this kind of strange system be successful? It's not as clear as with EV batteries, which fulfill a clear transportation need and which can be aggregated to also perform grid storage functions.

Then there is the incumbent technology advantage, which can't be overestimated. Li has a huge 30-30 year advantage in terms of learning curve and scale, and many pathways exist to improve it further.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote lostagain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2022 at 8:32pm
There are some YouTub videos that are sponsored by the viewers via Patreon, or so they say, that present a series of topics on renewable energy, storage of electricity, and other technical innovations.  Watching them give me some hope that we'll not run into the concerns expressed by S.Sweeper.  Here's the link:  https://www.youtube.com/c/JustHaveaThink  What is especially encouraging is that there are electron storage systems for large scale storage use that don't run into the complications of lithium/nickel.  
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Post Options Post Options   Quote StephenH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2022 at 4:50pm
The point is that "green" energy isn't always so green. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote offgrid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2022 at 4:12pm
StephenH, there are numerous studies showing that the energy requirement to produce Li EV batteries is around 50-100 kwh/kwh capacity depending on where and how they are manufactured. For a typical 65 kwh EV battery that is roughly 6 months electric consumption for the average US household.

BTW the energy requirement to refine (just to refine, not including extraction, shipment, and delivery) of the gasoline an equivalent ICE car uses over it's lifetime is a similar number.

The 50-100 kwh/kwh means that the energy payback of the battery is around 50-100 battery cycles, out of a lifetime measured in thousands of cycles.

Photovoltaic energy payback is less than 2 years, out of a lifetime of 35 years or more, only around 5% of their production. Wind is less than a year. So no, these technologies don't take "
a lot of energy to produce.

When zero carbon electricity (renewables, nuclear, hydro) are used for the manufacturing of these products carbon production approaches zero. That is very important to understand. The more low carbon electricity in the mix the better things get from a carbon production standpoint, and that is happening rapidly. The point is that together renewables, EVs, stationary batteries and aggregation and dispatch technology form a virtuous circle.

As for negative environmental impacts from manufacturing, certainly those exist. Nothing humans do at an economically significant scale is without impact. And nothing humans do has more significance or impact than energy production and transportation, except maybe food production.

Oil production, refining, and transportation have tremendous negative environmental impact as we all know.

That's not to dismiss the need to improve the extraction and manufacturing processes as much as we can. Of course we should. Just as we did semiconductor manufacturing which was horribly polluting in the early days but is much much cleaner now. I remember being told just to dump TCE down the drain in the processing lab at MIT back in the mid 70's).

Re your articles, one is in a far left publication which tends to never be satisfied unless everything is perfect. The other is in a far right publication which tends to resist any change to the status quo. Neither is where one should look for an unbiased assessment of technical or economic issues.

Re EV range anxiety, that horse has been beaten to death here and really isn't the topic of the current discussion. Either an EV makes sense for your use case or it doesn't. If it doesn't, by all means don't buy one. If it does, by all means consider it, performance, reliability, maintenance, and fuel cost are all working in the EVs favor.   Either way stay tuned, range and charging system access are increasing rapidly, and prices are decreasing as volume increases and competition among the manufacturers heats up.

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