Changing times
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Forum Name: Miscellaneous / Off-topic
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URL: http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104
Printed Date: 28 Apr 2024 at 1:04am
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Topic: Changing times
Posted By: David and Danette
Subject: Changing times
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2022 at 12:13am
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While camping I met a older couple who have been coming to Florida for many years from the New England area to camp for the Winter. And we talked about the restrictions and changes that have been made for camping in the Federal parks like reservations only and limited days you can camp and this past week a $7.00 rate increase per night for camping. They don't own a computer and now they have to call and make reservations and take what ever site is given to them. And I thought about all this and the direction camping at campgrounds is going with greater restrictions. With higher prices for campers and fees to camp I thought camping is becoming less accessible for some campers especially older retired people with limited income and younger families. Then I thought about with more government restrictions with vehicle emissions in the amount of pollution they produce campers will become smaller liter weight with smaller vehicles with less power to tow them. The big fifth wheeled campers will become like dinosaurs fading away in the past and small campers will become more popular and maybe more people choosing to camp in a tent rather owning a trailer to camp in. I am curious as to the direction camping may go in the future I myself have been giving thought to a smaller liter weight camper than we have now. The older couple that I met from New England have been camping in a old 13 foot Scamp camper towing it with a Hyundai 2.0 engine and they are very happy with their camper and do not want to change.
------------- 2018 Vista Cruiser 19BFD (2018- 2012 Vibe 6503 (2014-2019) 2009 r-pod 171 (2009-2014) Middle Tn 2014 Ram 1500 Quad cab |
Replies:
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2022 at 3:05am
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The more people there are the more congested the parks are going to be. When I was a kid my family could just drive up to Yosemite Valley from the CA coast and get a campsite, no reservations required. You can't get within miles of the place now. The population of CA has more than doubled over that time.
I agree those behemoths will likely go the way of the dinosaurs. I for one won't miss them at all. The little Tab and Tag trailers from Nucamp are very nice if you want to go smaller. Depending on what your expectations are they have everything a couple would need. Most of the energy use towing is due to aerodynamic drag not weight. The teardrops, Airstream, Casita and rPod shapes are not really very aerodynamically efficient, so there is going to be a new generation of highly aerodynamic trailers as we transition to electric vehicles. Check out the Alto line from Safari Condo as an early example of what is possible. I particularly like the A2124 model. Designs like the smaller Hi-Lo's might make a comeback, and the old standby tent trailer isn't a bad way to go for family camping. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: jato
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2022 at 7:04am
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At this point I have great doubts about the sensibility of owning an electric vehicle. Using a lot of rare earth materials to produce, they have a much higher carbon footprint on our ecology than the old gas powered vehicles. Where and how does one recycle all these batteries when they expire? Seven years ago a neighbor of ours had to get new batteries on his 8 year old Prius. Pricetag back then (2015) was just south of $ 6000. Those batteries don't just evaporate or go away. Also if you're an American citizen who owns an electric car 80% + of that electricity
comes from non-renewable resources (or fossil fuels) such as coal, oil,
and gas, you're most likely going to be charging your electric car
using resources that damage the planet. Not an easy fix regardless of which path you take. I appreciate the concerns about camping. Until retirement 3 years ago we only camped April-May or September-November and until the last couple years never had problems going to national parks or having to reserve to get a spot. Not any more unless you boondock or go to national forest campgrounds or similar which is what we normally do now.
------------- God's pod '11 model 177 '17 Ford F-150 4WD 3.5 Ecoboost Jim and Diane by beautiful Torch Lake "...and you will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free." |
Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2022 at 4:21pm
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A couple of things to add to what jato is saying. First, an EV makes a whole ton of sense if is mainly a commuter or get around town kind of vehicle. Save your ICE vehicle for longer trips, but if your round trip is < 180 miles or so, the EV is a great way to go. You will never have to stop at a gas station again. How much of the energy you use depends a lot on where you live and/or if you have solar panels on your home. Several of the people we know with an EV recharge their EV for free (sort of) with the solar they get from their roof. If you don't have solar of your own, a large percentage of it is from renewable sources if you live in California (wind, solar, and hydro). The technology to recycle lithium batteries is evolving. Clearly if they are not recyclable, that is a loser in the long term. I believe recycling will become viable in the next few years. Finally, the cost of lithium batteries has come down by more than 50% in the last 5 or so years. It's following a similar curve as solar (which is now < 50 cents a watt in usable quantities). ------------- bp 2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River 2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost |
Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2022 at 5:10pm
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"Thirty Foot Trailer" The old ways are changing you cannot deny The day of the traveler's over There's nowhere to gang and there's nowhere to bide So farewell to the life of the rover Goodbye to the tent and the old caravan To the tinker, the rover, the traveling man And goodbye tae the thirty foot trailer Farewell tae the cant and the traveling tongue Farewell tae the Romany talking The buying, the selling, the old fortune telling The knock on the door and the hawking You got to move fast to keep up with the times For these days a man cannot dander There's a bylaw to say you maun be on your way And another to say ye can't wander Farewell to the blossom and besoms of broom Farewell tae the creels and the baskets The folk of today would far rather pay For a thing that is made oot o plastic The old ways are passing and soon will be gone And progress is aye a big factor Its sent to afflict us and when they evict us They tow us away wi a tractor Farewell tae the pony, the cob, and the mare The reins and the harness are idle You don't need a strap when you're breaking up scrap So farewell tae the bit and the bridle Farewell tae the fields where we've sweated and toiled At pulling and hauling and lifting They'll soon have machines and the traveling queens And their menfolk had better be shifting http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Uq30FeeLTM - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Uq30FeeLTM ------------- Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2022 at 6:54pm
The reality is that EVs produce less GHGs (greenhouse gasses) over the life of the vehicle than ICE vehicles. That includes both manufacturing and plant emissions, even in countries like China which are heavy coal users. That's because power plants are more efficient than ICEs are. Using renewables and nuclear in manufacturing and charging of course greatly improves this. That's one problem with a lot of the fossil fuel industry funded studies, they assume business as usual on the energy production side. That is not what's happening, renewables are the cheapest source of electricity now and are displacing fossil plants rapidly. Then there is the opportunity to aggregate and utilize the EVs' storage capacity as a resource for grid storage. That is coming soon and will create a virtuous circle, a grid with dispersed storage to absorb more renewables which in turn reduces GHG emissions in the manufacture and operation of the EVs. In any event, the EV ship has sailed . All the major auto manufacturers have committed to EV production, and there is lots of investment in technology development in battery chemistry and charging infrastructure. 20 years, probably sooner, ICEs will be a rarity. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: furpod
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2022 at 1:04pm
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They won't be rare at my house. Ever.  Just picked up an Excursion. 6.8 liters of comfy leg room for 8. Why? you might ask.. Because I CAN! LOL The beast.. https://postimg.cc/68hbbQ70">  And it came with this.. more ICE action.. 8 straight holes of fun.. https://postimages.org/">  ------------- |
Posted By: jato
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2022 at 1:39pm
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Love that Excursion. It makes a Suburban look small by comparison. That thing is so long it won't fit in my garage. Looks like you will have your hands full with the 'older' vehicle on the trailer. ------------- God's pod '11 model 177 '17 Ford F-150 4WD 3.5 Ecoboost Jim and Diane by beautiful Torch Lake "...and you will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free." |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2022 at 6:23pm
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There will always be afficionados of outdated technologies, that's fine. Heck, my wife has a horse, but she sure doesn't use it for commuting.
A Tesla S Plaid can run the quarters in 9 sec. There is only one "production" car faster, the Rimac Nevera, maybe. So EVs can most definitely be fun. I for one will not miss pistons, valves, camshafts, crankshafts, oil pumps, carburetors, ignition systems, etc. It's amazing that all those mechanical parts work together at all. I'm overhauling a Continental O200 aircraft engine right now, what a mess. I look forward to never having to worry about all that stuff ever again. Unfortunately I doubt I'll live long enough to see adequate batteries for aviation use, so I'm stuck with babysitting a 1950's era ICE out on the nose. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2022 at 8:19pm
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Until I can recharge in the same time it takes to refill, an EV will not be practical for when we are towing and traveling out to see our daughters. It takes 5 days to get there already since my wife does not drive and I do all the driving. Adding charging time onto that would mean another day or two to get there. Also one thing not mentioned is that most charging stations are set up for nose-in charging. Unhitching to charge and then re-hitching to continue the trip is not a viable option. ------------- StephenH Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2022 at 5:30am
I think "not practical" is the incorrect term. What you are saying is "unless I can add range as fast as I can with gasoline then I don't want an EV". That's ok as a personal choice but it doesnt make EVs impractical if it takes a little longer. It's not going to add another day or two to a 5 day trip. Gas pumps run at about 8 gallons per minute so with a 15 mpg rig with a 20 gallon tank you can add range at the rate or about 240 miles in 2 minutes or about 120 miles a minute while keeping a 20% (60 mile) reserve. Those were about the numbers I got towing my 179 with my Highlander at 60 mph. That will never happen in an EV, but you can get close enough I think. A gallon of gasoline contains 33.7 kwh of energy. A good modern ICE is about 30% efficient fuel to wheels (just the way heat engines-all heat engines- are) so 1 gallon of gas can deliver 10kwh of energy and 15 mpg is the equivalent of 670 watt hours per mile, assuming no increase in rig efficiency with an EV, which is probably wrong but it's conservative. The new crop of EVs with 800V battery architecture and 200kwh batteries can charge at around 250kw for about 60% of battery capacity (to 80% while leaving the same 20%/60 mile reserve) above which they taper the charge rate. With a 200kwh battery (equivalent to a 20 gallon fuel tank at 10 kwh per gallon) you can get a 120kwh recharge in just under 30 minutes. 120kwh divided by 670 wh per mile is 180 miles of range towing, or about 6 miles a minute compared to 120 miles per minute with gas. Not even close? Well maybe it is. Look at it as 180 miles in 30 minutes. Good enough? For me yes. I would start out fully charged with 200kwh, drive 4 hours or 240 miles (I like to start early), just like in a gasser. Then I would stop and recharge for 30 minutes while making and eating breakfast and taking a break Then I would drive another 3 hours or 180 miles, and recharge for another 30 minutes while making and eating lunch and taking another break. Then another 3 hours/180 miles, total 600 miles. I'm done for the day, just as I would be driving a gasser. Stop and recharge overnight at a campground with 50A receptacles. I am normally in much less if a hurry so I would just do the one breakfast fuel stop and go 420 miles, stop at lunch for the day, get a campsite, also just as I do with the gasser. Easy peasey. I agree on the pull through chargers, there are only a few now but that will change, it's not a technical hurdle. Those have been solved. And when I consider that I go on long trips no more than 10% at most of the miles I drive my vehicle I'm waaay ahead with an EV I can charge at home with no time spent going to a fuel station ever, and refueling costs about 1/3 of gasoline. Not to mention all the other ev benefits like very low maintenance, high performance, better stability, ability to maintain power to your house in an emergency, low or no (with residential solar) greenhouse gas emissions, etc. BTW if I want to go to visit west coast friends and relatives in a hurry I'll fly my airplane. I'll get there in an easy 2 days at about 200 mph with 3 or 4 refuelings burning about 120 gallons (roughly equivalent to about 25 mpg driving). Now that's fun traveling, and no airport lines, sardine can seating, and hassles. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2022 at 6:57am
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It looks like electric vehicles are going to eventually take the place of internal combustion engine vehicles. That is almost a given until someone comes up with a better idea. But, it's going to take a long time for electric vehicles to become practical for many vehicle uses. The infrastructure for generating the electricity and distributing it in a non-CO2 producing way is in its infancy and has a long way to go before it will be truly functional. According to the US Energy Information Agency, 66.6% of our electricity is from fossil fuel. To that one must add another 1.4% of biomass that is burned and generates CO2 as a byproduct, so we really have 68% of our electricity coming from burning stuff. Until we have electricity mostly coming from non-CO2 producing sources, we're really just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. We also have to deal with the environmental damage of battery production. Lithium extraction has very significant environmental challenges, in addition to the fact that it is a finite mineral and may not be available in sufficient quantities to supply meet demand for batteries. Recycling lithium is a good idea but it urgently needs to be implemented or that lithium will be forever lost in landfills. In the long run, lithium battery storage is a bandaid on on the electron storage problem; another form of storage is needed. None of these issues should stop us from urgently moving toward the elimination of fossil fuels, but we'll have to contend with human nature to take the easy way out, and the easy way doesn't always work out. Fossil fuel is easy and the interests promoting its use are powerful. It is going to be a big challenge to get people to switch to developing and using other sources of energy and by the time we get people to do it, it may be well past the tipping point. ------------- Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2022 at 9:26am
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I had hoped that fuel cells would become a more viable option. The down side is hydrogen storage. I have read of some storage techniques for storing hydrogen on a disc that can be easily changed and the depleted one can be refilled. However, what was not mentioned is how much hydrogen could be stored. Cryogenic storage or high-pressure storage is not practical as driving a rolling Dewar flask is probably unsafe (what happens in a crash when the Dewar flask is punctured or otherwise compromised) or the weight of a very high pressure tank that also has risks if a crash happens). Also, the hydrogen would be generated by natural gas reforming or electrolysis. The one is still using fossil fuels and the second takes energy that has to be generated, again using fossil fuels. Battery technology needs to move away from Lithium but there is as of now, no alternative that has developed enough to take its place. There are some prospects, but they are not ready for the market yet. ------------- StephenH Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS |
Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2022 at 10:26am
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Once again, we have to keep in mind that "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch." Another issue in these changing times is the consequence of not adequately funding the state and federal forest and park services to maintain and develop new camping camping facilities. Existing campgrounds are often over used and far too crowded, making the camping experience less pleasant and damaging the environment that we all want to enjoy. Campgrounds need better maintenance and we need more of them. So many date back to old WPA projects and they're just pain worn out. ------------- Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2022 at 1:10pm
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+1 ------------- StephenH Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS |
Posted By: David and Danette
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2022 at 5:23pm
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I think a middle ground producing less pollution camping would be smaller lighter weight campers and smaller tow vehicles or just buy a tent. I agree with Federal campgrounds in need of repair we just left one that several structures and boardwalks were closed to the public because they were unsafe to use. The daily camping rates just went up $7.00 a night hopefully that extra money will go to repairs and maintaining the campgrounds. It's sad I just could only imagine what the campground looked like 40 years ago in that it would have been a more enjoyable place to camp. We were camping in the Ocala National Forest in central Florida the oldest National Park east of the Mississippi River the campgrounds were built back in the thirties approaching a hundred years old.
------------- 2018 Vista Cruiser 19BFD (2018- 2012 Vibe 6503 (2014-2019) 2009 r-pod 171 (2009-2014) Middle Tn 2014 Ram 1500 Quad cab |
Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2022 at 8:44pm
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For some of us, a tent is no longer viable. We gave up tent camping when I fell on my wife trying to get up and put a bruise on her leg that lasted a really long time. I can't argue though that these behemoth RVs are a bit much. If one wants to have all the comforts of home, then stay home. The RP179 is the right size for the two of us. ------------- StephenH Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS |
Posted By: Rpod-Couple
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2022 at 10:19pm
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An EV for around town is fine. But not all of us are retired and can afford to wait 30+ minutes to fill up every 90 minutes. And that assumes you don’t have to wait for someone else at the fast charger who just plugged in and has 30 minutes to go. The Ford Lightning is only going to get about 150 miles towing a TT and you don’t want to drive it more than 70% charge (105 miles) to prolonged battery life. The other problem is the fast chargers aren’t always where you need them. You may have to stop early or drive out of the way to get to one. I know of EV panel trucks that some days got stuck because they ran into big head winds and couldn’t finish their routes and had to be towed back to their depot. I really, really want a Ford Lightning but range anxiety towing my TT is a real concern. My BIG dream is mini-nuclear plant to fit in a pickup truck so you can drive for years, power, heat, and cool your TT. The ultimate boondocking TV. 😉 ------------- Steve & Elaine 2021 R-pod 2023 VW Atlas Cross Sport |
Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2022 at 6:29am
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Though I am not opposed to the responsible development and construction of nuclear power plants, I am a hesitant to put such a potentially poisonous system into the hands of individuals who may or may not comply with maintenance and safety guidelines. In addition, what happens in a crash if radioactive material is spilled onto the roadway? We have taken the step to substitute electric powered vehicles, now we have to urgently develop adequate infrastructure for rapid charging and for better battery technology. Lithium is a temporary fix and is not sustainable. Heck, who knows maybe we'll figure out how to make charging pads like those charging pads for cell phones, where you just set the phone on top of the little pad thingy and viola, your phone is charged in no time. But we still have to deal with the adequate funding of state and federal camping facilities. The fad back in the 70's was to cut all funding for that sort of expenditure and raise user fees to the point where they'd pay for all of the facilities expenses and any new development that might come along. Unfortunately, that philosophy persists and we are looking at campground fees that are prohibitive for many, especially those on fixed incomes. I saw in the internet, so it must be true, that we will soon develop a perpetual motion machine to provide energy for all our needs, so our troubles will soon be over.  ------------- Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2022 at 7:26am
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I would not expect expect another technology to replace Lithium batteries anytime soon. That is magical thinking. Time-frames in energy technology changes are my h much longer than in IT tech. They are not comparable. The typical time duration of core energy tech is a century or two. It took well over 100 years for coal/steam to replace water power. And another century for oil to become dominant over coal. Cual is still around now although it's on life support. Oil has peaked and is beginning it's decline. Solar and wind have been with us well over half a century and are just now becoming dominant.
lsolar cells are basically the same as they were 50 years ago. It and wind are not at all in their infancy, they are very well understood mature technologies. Why does energy technology take so much longer to change than in other fields? It's the scale required. Enormous investment, which won't happen unless the technology has been proven. For this reason it is a grave mistake to simply say we need to move away from Li batteries. Instead we need to continue to optimize what we have and increase investment in it. Otherwise it just becomes another excuse to do nothing. And you can ignore all the announcements of new battery or solar technologies. These fall into one of two categories. Startups trying to pump up their company value with pie in the sky claims or academics announcing some lab "breakthrough". Very few academics have the first clue how to efficiently manufacture anything much less how to achieve the enormous scale required to have a measurable impact on the energy economy. We can safely ignore all that stuff till you actually sée someone build a "giga scale" plant to produce it. As for Li manufacture, it is far less damaging than oil and gas extraction. The materials can either be recycled or disposed of safely unlike lead and other battery types. The biggest problem with Li is water usage, but it's a localized problem. Nothing has zero impact, and it never will. Nuclear falls in the same category, as does hydro. Right now we need to decarbonize, that is the biggest threat. We just need to do our best for the folks bring impacted and move forward with what we can scale and implement now. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: David and Danette
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2022 at 9:50am
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They came up with LED's that use a lot less electricity than previous light bulbs maybe a new electric motor that uses a lot less electricity than the current electric motors that would help extend the range of a electric vehicle. ------------- 2018 Vista Cruiser 19BFD (2018- 2012 Vibe 6503 (2014-2019) 2009 r-pod 171 (2009-2014) Middle Tn 2014 Ram 1500 Quad cab |
Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2022 at 10:56am
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I just talked to a nuclear engineer with whom I work at our local Habitat project and he mentioned that iron pellet batteries are making surprising progress. Though it will certainly take some time to develop that may be a technology that could supplement lithium and the attendant environmental damages associated with it. As for magical thinking, I still like the idea of perpetual motion. ------------- Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2022 at 12:59pm
Unfortunately, that is an apples to elephants comparison. Lights generate light. They don't have to contend with things like inertia, rolling resistance, aerodynamic drag, and a whole host of other things. There are more efficient electric motors. However, the motor is only one part of a vehicle that impacts the amount of energy needed to move people and items down the road safely. Years ago I read an article in one of the motor magazines. The author was comparing cost of transportation between him in his vehicle and him on a bicycle. His contention was that it was a lot more economical to run a car on gas than to power him on his bicycle. He said the cost of the meal he had was more than the cost of the gasoline. However, he failed to state that he would have eaten the same meal anyway even when he was driving. His cost comparison was meaningless. Unless one also comes up with better ways to transmit the power of the engine through the transmission, drivetrain, wheels, and tires to the ground, better engines will help, but won't fix the problem. ------------- StephenH Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2022 at 5:53pm
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Electric motors are already in the high 90s in percent efficiency, so expect no dramatic increases there Ditto drivetrain efficiency.
ICEs and alternative heat engines have an upper limit in efficiency of (t hot - t cold)/ t hot, where t hot is the temp of the ignited gasses in the cylinder, and t cold is the exhaust gas temp. Temps above absolute zero. This is called the Carnot limit, basic thermodynamics, you can't get around it. Put another way it is the expansion and cooling of the gasses during the power stroke that provides the horsepower. That might be something like (3000-1500)/3000 for an ICE, so it's best theoretical efficiency might be around 50%. Some very large stationary diesel engines are in that range, most advanced automotive engines are around 30-40%. So there is some room for improvement in ICE engine efficiency, but not like 2x. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2022 at 6:18am
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For those who feel they must keep their ICEs a bit longer but don't want to continue to spew additional carbon into the air, consider getting a diesel and modding it to run on straight veggie oil (SVO). Vegetable oil production unlike corn ethanol has a very low fossil fuel input. heck, you can get an oil press and make it at home. So it can be quite close to carbon neutral.
Depending on the vehicle and the climate you live in the conversion can be pretty simple. There are two issues, first, the viscosity of SVO is higher than dino diesel so you need to heat it before running it through your injectors. Typically this is done by having a dual fuel setup so the vehicle starts and warms up on dinodiesel, with the SVO tank getting heated by the engine coolant before switching over. Second, because it is less volatile and doesnt boil off as easily as dino diesel,some of it winds up in your engine oil. Solution is more frequent oil changes. The engine itself will run just fine, Rundolf Diesel's first engines ran on peanut oil, that's the fuel he designed them for back then. You can also use waste veggie oil from your local fried food place. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2022 at 8:24am
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It isn't as simple as making vegetable oil and dumping it in the tank. Biodiesel is made by a process of transesterification by using methanol and sodium or potassium hydroxide. This separates the glycerin from the oil, making it less thick. https://www.thoughtco.com/make-biodiesel-from-vegetable-oil-605975 - https://www.thoughtco.com/make-biodiesel-from-vegetable-oil-605975 ------------- StephenH Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2022 at 3:16pm
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Biodiesel is not vegetable oil. It has been chemical converted. But that conversion is not necessary. You can just run the straight vegetable oil, as Rudolf Diesel originally intended. You need a dual tank system because you have to heat the SVO to reduce it's viscosity. The SVO can be raw or used veggie oil waste that has been filtered. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: furpod
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2022 at 4:17pm
Or.. drive something that gets good mileage, or even a hybrid or EV, when appropriate (my parents both drive hybrids, at my house it's a VW as a "daily driver").. And then Drive the ICE TRUCK when you need.. say.. a truck to haul something. Exactly what my family does.. That's the reason our Super Duty has under 30K at 5 years old.. and dad's eX only has 90K at 17 years.. 20K of which were put on since Sept, delivering old cars to his sons.. (an MGTD, a Jag, a Duster 340 6-pack, a 53 Chevy one ton PU, and the big buick I brought home)LOL. Mine was the last delivery, and he saw no need to keep the eX after that was done.. so we drove it here, he flew home. BTW.. 5 days of driving cross country with your 84 year old, stage 4 cancer having dad, is a trip of a lifetime.
------------- |
Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2022 at 6:37pm
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I ran biodiesel in the engine of my sail boat 40 years ago. It worked great, but stunk like rancid french fries. ------------- Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2022 at 11:45am
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We drove through Saratoga (CA) yesterday for an errand, and I would estimate at least 10% of the cars we saw were some kind of Tesla. Seems to work for a noticeable percentage of those people. I happen to have about 6 (or more maybe?) friends and/or relatives who have Teslas and they are without exception quite happy with them. One relative drives theirs to the cabin in the Sierra and back (~~ 250 mile trip). They charge it while they're there (on 110 no less), and cruise on home (where they charge it on solar after they get home). ------------- bp 2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River 2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost |
Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2022 at 1:38pm
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I'm not saying that EVs won't work for some people. For some, they are great. I just don't think they are in any way suitable for everyone or for all situations. ------------- StephenH Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS |
Posted By: David and Danette
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2022 at 2:11pm
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We have our Ram 1500 Hemi for our tow vehicle and our Kia Soul 2.0 for our run about vehicle. I have been giving thought to a small camper we could tow with the Kia Soul which has a hitch with a two hundred pound hitch capacity and the Kia having a two thousand pound towing capacity. Have looked at the Mypod Little guy campers but not sure we could adjust to that small of a camper. Would be nice though having a small camper that's easy to tow and that gets good MPG.
------------- 2018 Vista Cruiser 19BFD (2018- 2012 Vibe 6503 (2014-2019) 2009 r-pod 171 (2009-2014) Middle Tn 2014 Ram 1500 Quad cab |
Posted By: jato
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2022 at 4:01pm
Would work if you don't have any issues with small areas or not being able to stand up if you are stuck inside due to inclement weather. Have seen these and smaller ones over the years, some are not much larger than climbing into a casket! ------------- God's pod '11 model 177 '17 Ford F-150 4WD 3.5 Ecoboost Jim and Diane by beautiful Torch Lake "...and you will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free." |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2022 at 4:53pm
Certainly EVs dont work yet for all uses. But the problem I see is that there is a tendency to view the merits of a particular piece of technology based solely on what it doesn't do as well as what it replaces, and not to give enough credit for what it does better. In the case of EVs there are so many benefits over ICE vehicles, not even counting the environmental ones, that the case for them is compelling. Once you view it that way it becomes much easier to accept a few minor inconveniences in order to get the benefits the rest of the time. Long trips are the one area where EVs fall short, but they're still quite doable. And long trips are a small part of most folks vehicle usage. The average daily vehicle use in the US is 29 miles. Heck, for most folks you could just rent an iCE or hybrid vehicle for that rare long trip and still be ahead cost and time wise driving an EV the rest of the time. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: PilotPodder
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2022 at 7:41am
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Tony Barthel of RVTravel.com had an interesting article yesterday on how the RV industry is anticipating the new world of EV tow vehicles. It sheds light on the early thinking of the industry and their approach to tackling towing range declination for EVs. Basically, the trailer itself would become an EV with below-floor batteries and motors that power the trailer's wheels. This would then lessen the drag on the TV and potentially give back full range. Here is a link to the article if interested: https://www.rvtravel.com/powered-trailers-speak-future-ev-towing-1035b/ - https://www.rvtravel.com/powered-trailers-speak-future-ev-towing-1035b/
------------- Portage, MI — 2017 RPod 179 - sold / 2017 Toyota Tundra — https://johnmarucci.com/r-pod-video-list/ - My RPod YouTube Videos |
Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2022 at 8:05am
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I think that is a non-starter for any light-weight trailer. It would also likely bring the cost of a trailer up to the cost of a motor home. It compounds the charging problem as then not only the tow vehicle would need to be charged, but the trailer's battery would need to be charged also. How long would that take? I think anyone in line to charge behind such a rig would be very unhappy.
Edit: Some interesting points were raised in the comments. Campgrounds would most likely install meters so that those who wanted to charge such vehicles and trailers would be paying for that privilege. As it is, a lot of campgrounds have power systems that are inadequate now. Add electric vehicle charging to the mix and what happens to the rates as owners now need to spend even more to upgrade the power in the parks. As for boondocking, the trailer might help get you there, but then you might be stuck since there would be no way to recharge either the vehicle or the trailer. As for using solar to charge them, how many panels would be needed to charge the batteries in a reasonable time? I am pretty sure my RPod would not be able to carry enough panels to charge such a setup. Carrying a generator to charge the batteries would seem to defeat the purpose of going with an EV also. ------------- StephenH Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS |
Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2022 at 8:23am
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Unless we start taking care of our state and national forests and parks, the whole issue may be moot. You can have the most environmentally correct TV and RV available, but if all the campgrounds are full, there may be no place to go. Parks have been neglected or made unaffordable for the common person for many years. "There's nowhere to go and there's no where to bide, so farewell to the life of the rover." ------------- Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2022 at 11:22am
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People worried about range and charge times are not (yet) fully cognizant that you just don't drive and "fill up" an EV like you may have had to with an ICE vehicle. First you need to realize that you will never go to a gas station again. You will never change the oil or filters again. All of the people I know with an EV rarely use a "charging station", as they can fill up other places as part of their usual routine. They charge at home, they charge at the grocery store, they charge at work. Generally, charging happens when you're doing other things and you don't have to carve out time to do it. Long distance trips will be different, but that will be more the exception than the rule. ------------- bp 2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River 2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost |
Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2022 at 12:23pm
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I agree for in-and-around town driving near home that EVs can be a good option. However, I have one vehicle. I do not have the room or the budget for two vehicles and don't want to pay the taxes (NC charges property tax annually on vehicles in addition to registration and license fees). It makes more sense for us to stick with ICE vehicles until such time as I feel that alternatives are viable for us or until I have to quit driving due to age and abilities, whichever comes first. ------------- StephenH Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS |
Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2022 at 12:56pm
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StephenH touched a problem that many of us face. Lots of us are retired and our vehicle purchase options are limited. I'd love to go out and buy one of the Ford EV -f-150's, but I'll be driving my Ecoboost until I stop towing a trailer because the purchase of a new $50K+ vehicle is simply not possible on my retirement income. The same applies to our 2015 Mazda CX-5, I'm hoping it'll last until I'm no longer able to drive because I can't afford to replace it with an EV. As Woody Guthrie once observed, it all boils down to: "if you ain't got the do re mi." ------------- Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2022 at 4:04pm
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I too have a limited retirement transportation budget. Much of that is absorbed by my airplane, which cannot be electric at this point. Unlike road vehicles, where the weight of the vehicle does not have a great impact on efficiency, in aviation it's all about weight (drag governs as in road vehicles but drag is a function of weight and speed, unlike for road vehicles where it is independent of weight). Batteries are just too heavy and need to increase in energy density by at least a factor of two or three to be viable.
OTOH my towing requirements are no longer significant, mostly just local farm utility towing, so towing range is not a big deal. So I will be looking for either a used EV with moderate towing capacity and range, or alternatively an EV passenger car and a beater ICE pickup which here in Virginia I can simply label for farm use and avoid taxation issues. I can sell our two ICE vehicles while they still hold velue to limit the expense involved. My concern is that when the tipping point in the transition to EVs the value of used ICE vehicles will drop precipitously. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2022 at 4:41pm
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Then I would be able to purchase one of those ICE vehicles and the taxes would not be that high either. ------------- StephenH Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS |
Posted By: David and Danette
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2022 at 4:09am
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As Bob Dylan wrote the song The Times They Are A-Changin the population has grown camping has become more popular and there's more concern for the environment and seems like in some ways the government has not been able to keep up with the changes. And besides campgrounds Rest Areas are another example there is not enough room for trucks and RV's if you arrive after the sun goes down you may not find a place to park. I feel sorry for truck drivers they are tired and have no place to park and they are having to deal with this all year long.
------------- 2018 Vista Cruiser 19BFD (2018- 2012 Vibe 6503 (2014-2019) 2009 r-pod 171 (2009-2014) Middle Tn 2014 Ram 1500 Quad cab |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2022 at 4:56am
We are all readily able to come up with justifications for either continuing to do what we are doing or for changing. Humans are very very good at that. So as always it boils down to what motivates one personally. These motivations are either helped or hindered by policy/incentives. Having worked in renewable energy for my whole career energy generation, transmission, and use is an area I both understand well and am passionate about. Others are indifferent or actively oppose changes. I'm not passing judgement on what's right or wrong here. In the case of EVs however as I said before that particular ship appears to have sailed. There is a whole global economy in the midst of changing and the US is not leadng the charge. Asia and Europe are. Sadly we as a country no longer appear to be able to align ourselves in the same direction (whatever that direction may be) as we used to be able to do. What might change that I don't know. As for park congestion and deferred maintenance, that is the inevitable result of global population growth combined with a massive increase in affluence. It is the same with pretty much all of our environmental resources, CO2 buildup, fresh water, fertile land, forests, fisheries, you name it. In most of these areas humans are now depleting resources 3 or more times faster that they are getting regenerated. Obviously that is not sustainable, but, being humans, we are not well equipped to make the needed changes (some combination of more efficient use, reduced affluence, an/or reduced population) to try to solve these problems. So it will be solved for us at some point. Simple as that. In the meantime expect parks to become yet more crowded and degraded. Placing more emphasis on visits to the less popular destinations helps spread out the demand. Leave the high season visits to the Yosemites, Yellowstones, and Smokies to others it's still possible to have a great experience at less popular destinations, many of them National Forest, state or local. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2022 at 6:19am
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Indeed, Mother Nature is making it clear that we face a "pay me now or pay me later" situation. Human nature being what it is, we all want to put off until tomorrow that which we can manage effectively today but at a cost. The cost later will be vastly more dear, but it means less pain today. Though our individual efforts are important in protecting our world, absent enormous institutional changes, it's a bit like trying to reverse the course of the Mississippi with teaspoons. We will all find excuses for why our own conduct doesn't matter and say that it's up to the other guy to individually bear the cost, while the big institutional polluters churn out more plastic every year for us to "recycle." We have been underfunding our state and national forests and parks for the last 50 years. Of course they cannot handle the increased demand. We should be expanding parks and national forestland but there is tremendous pressure to reduce public lands which we all depend upon for camping and other recreation. If we don't be careful, there'll be no places to camp without paying high private RV park rates for a space in a paved parking lot. ------------- Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2022 at 7:57am
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While you are right LA about human nature, I for one am not going to use that as an excuse to give up. We can do what we can do, and our choices as consumers do matter in terms of the industries that thrive and the ones that disappear.
As for the relationship between park funding and access it is inevitable that development be restricted in the most popular parks. All that would be accomplished by funding further development is more environmental degradation of these special places. Yosemite visitors for example experience as much as 3 or 4 hours of traffic delays in summer, nor is any parking available after around 9AM. The trails are jammed. And that's just day use, nothing to do with camping. So I don't really see a viable alternative to restricting access in those cases and in our dedicated wilderness areas. As for providing more camping opportunities in less desirable areas that would be fine with me, but would be fought by the commercial park operators under the argument that it places public parks in competition with private enterprise. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2022 at 10:40am
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A few years ago there was a ballot proposition here to add a $15 fee per vehicle to pay for California state parks. It did not pass. We, OTOH, pay several times that amount for our annual "parks pass". When we drive by the nearby Castle Rock State Park, we see dozens of cars parked along the side of the road (often BMWs, Teslas, & other higher-priced cars) so they can avoid paying the entrance fee. It seems the general population does not want to contribute to park maintenance. ------------- bp 2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River 2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost |
Posted By: PilotPodder
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2022 at 1:28pm
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Most people are unaware that the GAOA passed last year adding $9.5B in National Park infrastructure funding. Fully bipartisan so it rarely made the news in 2020, yet many of the projects are underway and/or continuing into 2022 and beyond. I put together a visualization of the spend and projects by state if anyone is interested: http://johnmarucci.com/great-american-outdoor-act-budget-map-and-data/ - http://johnmarucci.com/great-american-outdoor-act-budget-map-and-data/ It is best viewed on desktop. If you hover over the project dollar amounts you can see detail on each project. Pretty interesting spend by state and park/property. ~PP ------------- Portage, MI — 2017 RPod 179 - sold / 2017 Toyota Tundra — https://johnmarucci.com/r-pod-video-list/ - My RPod YouTube Videos |
Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2022 at 2:45pm
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I personally think none of us should give up on trying to make the world a better place and to protect our planet. But, the reality of the economics of retirement limits our choices. We are probably not going to be making any large purchases, be it a vehicle, trailer, etc. for the duration of our turn. John, I was one of those unaware of the GAOA bill. California state parks have been unaffordable for many years. Maybe the fact that most of the public can't afford to visit [not counting the folks mentioned by GlueGuy with the BMW's and so on] is leading to funding hostility on the part of the public. Who wants to pay more for their car registration when they still won't be able to afford to visit state parks? Maybe CA should institute a program where people could work as volunteers on park maintenance and earn credit for park use? Just an odd idea.
------------- Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
Posted By: jato
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2022 at 5:15pm
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The GAOA was an amazing passage of a bill! Wow, bipartisan, how about that, miracles do happen. The old adage says, How do you eat an elephant? The answer, one bite at a time. We too can do our part as individuals to help the mess we are in. Recycle, recycle, recycle. All glass, paper, plastic, metal (washed clean of course) and cardboard is recycled. Seeing that we live in the country we have the luxury of having a burn barrel to burn items that recyling doesn't take or junk mail that is too cumbersome to recycle. That being the case last year we added a total of 3 garbage bags for the entire year to the landfill. Sad thing is we have neighbors across the street from us that generate more than that every week and no they don't have children in diapers. We aren't that old, but used cloth diapers for all our kids. It was a rare moment when disposable were used, convenient yes, but we felt guilty when they had to be disposed of, they don't break down - they are like cigarette butts - or tootsie rolls - "last a long time, last a long time."
------------- God's pod '11 model 177 '17 Ford F-150 4WD 3.5 Ecoboost Jim and Diane by beautiful Torch Lake "...and you will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free." |
Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2022 at 5:52pm
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A lot has to do with where one lives, and the rules for recycling that one has to observe. For example, we just got an updated guidance for recycling that rules out things like take-out containers, even if they have recycle marks and are not polystyrene and are the same material as the bottles and jars that are allowed. It has to do with shape and the automated sorting equipment used. ------------- StephenH Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2022 at 6:42pm
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If you can't recycle the paper then it's better to put it in the landfill than to burn it. It is sequestered in the landfill but if you burn it you will be putting CO2 and pollutants in the atmosphere. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2022 at 6:44pm
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The plastic "recycle" marks on the bottom of plastic containers are a big scam by the plastic producers. Most of the plastic they produce is not recyclable. They put the little marks on it to simply identify the type of plastic and make us think it means it is recyclable when it isn't. ------------- Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2022 at 7:19pm
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+1. The plastic numbering system is a scam. Most places will only accept type 1 (PET) any type 2 (HDPE) plastics. PET is used in your standard soda/water bottle, cooking oil container, some other food products. HDPE is used in your milk jug, detergent and shampoo bottle. All the rest of the numbers just go in the landfill (if we're lucky) or the ocean (if we're unlucky).
Where I live they won't even accept glass, which is downright ridiculous. In the meantime CA is implenting a separate food waste recycling system. Recycling varies so much by jurisdiction it's crazy. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: jato
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2022 at 7:29pm
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Same here where I am in northern Michigan. They accept type 1 and type 2 only. Pop (or as you call is soda) bottles and cans are worth 10 cents each so they don't even make it to the recycle bin, they are returned at the store. Same goes for beer bottles and cans regardless of size - 10 cents each. If the plastic container isn't a type 1 or 2 it is a simple thing for us - we don't purchase it! Simple. That way it isn't a problem as to burn it or throw it in the trash. That is unfortunate to hear of places that don't recycle glass, amazing. ------------- God's pod '11 model 177 '17 Ford F-150 4WD 3.5 Ecoboost Jim and Diane by beautiful Torch Lake "...and you will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free." |
Posted By: David and Danette
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2022 at 8:49pm
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Recycling is something that is in progress and that everyone should do according what their community ability allows. What I have heard too that very little plastic is actually recycled but they are making progress and I think it is good to recycle your plastic waste to keep it together in one place for when the ability to recycle all plastic becomes possible. I know in different communities that I have lived they each had different recycling abilities. Plastic lumber for boardwalks and park benches are some uses I have seen for recycled plastic in recreation areas. But still for now only a small part of plastic collected gets recycled and I read they are working on some kind of bacteria I think that eats up plastic and turns it into a non toxic biodegradable matter. And I agree what has been said about baby diapers they are a huge problem cloth diapers are definitely good to use. I think the younger generation understands pollution and recycling and the environment a lot better than my generation and the younger generation will make some progress in time in making things better.
------------- 2018 Vista Cruiser 19BFD (2018- 2012 Vibe 6503 (2014-2019) 2009 r-pod 171 (2009-2014) Middle Tn 2014 Ram 1500 Quad cab |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2022 at 3:53am
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Moving to rural SW VA from Santa Cruz CA was an eye opener for me with regard to variation in recycling by jurisdiction.
Best to worst. In SC we had 3 curbside bins, recycling, trash, and green waste. There is now a 4th, compostable food waste, just starting this year as required by CA law. The trash bins are only 20 gallons to incentive you to recycle. That's less than 2 kitchen garbage bags a week for a family. In comparison, here in SW VA everything but clean cardboard, steel and aluminum cans, and HDPE containers gets trashed. And it's not curbside, you have to take your materials to the collection centers. So most people around here don't bother with recycling, many just burn whatever they can to reduce the volume they need to take in, if they dont just bury it on their own property. Worst of all worlds. Here is a good video from SC City explaining what is recyclable there and what is not and why. This is likely more than what is recycled pretty much anywhere else. For example, the stretchy plastic bags are LDPE (type 4). They go in the trash most places. Re burning non recyclable trash. This is not good, even paper. If you can't recycle it it's better to sequester the stuff in the landfill than it is to dump it in the atmosphere. The trouble is that unless you live in a polluted city it looks like the atmosphere is an infinite sink for pollutants while landfills are local eyesores. If we can't see it it's not a problem, right? But atmospheric pollution is a more critical problem than landfills are. We need to get past the idea that we can just dump stuff in the air and forget about it. Yet another area where humans aren't well equipped to make the right choices. https://youtu.be/YHRZoWXPUrI - Recycling ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2022 at 6:08am
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Where I used to live in rural NV, there was no recycling. One's only option was to collect the "recyclables" and drive 30 miles round trip to a recycling center to drop them off, thus putting even more carbon into the air, not to mention unnecessary waste of time. Plastic film, foam products, and plastic food trays could be easily eliminated in many cases, but retailers, big box stores, and food shops continue to flood us with them. There is no reason the produce you purchase has to come in a plastic tray wrapped in plastic. There are many plastic products that can be eliminated simply by using paper. For the geezers among us, we all remember buying produce in the grocery store using little paper bags, wax paper sandwich bags, paper grocery bags, refillable drink bottles, and the butcher wrapping the chicken or ground beef in a piece of paper. Perhaps some basic rules about the production and use of plastic are needed. We could require that all single use plastic be made of biodegradable ingredients. We could require plastics manufacturers to implement recycling programs to recover a large percentage of the type of plastic they produce for reuse in their manufacturing process. If they don't do it, then they have to limit their production proportionately. There are many ways to make those responsible for pollution accept that responsibility and deal with the consequences, but personal responsibility is not something humans are inclined to accept. ------------- Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
Posted By: David and Danette
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2022 at 7:16am
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I retired from Walmart six weeks ago and I have seen the amount of waste they produce but they have a goal to produce zero waste by 2025. If they achieve that time will tell but they are one of the few stores that collect used plastic upon entering the store which they make plastic bales to be sold. We collect all our clean flexible plastic at home which adds up to a lot and discard and drop off at Walmart in the containers they have. Walmart is using or planning on large trucks that are electric for transporting their merchandise to stores so times are changing for the good but it will take time. I think people need not to buy so much stuff and live a simpler life and try not to generate so much waste live with what you have. I am guilty of this but opening my eyes to seeing all the stuff I have bought that I can live without. But I think manufacturers are realizing this and are making changes. Fertilizers and pesticides can be limited where we lived in south Florida they have made restrictions on their use especially around water ways where they run off into them when it rains and cause environmental harm. These are changing times and our enjoying nature and future generations to enjoy the wonderful things on this earth we all need to be responsible.
------------- 2018 Vista Cruiser 19BFD (2018- 2012 Vibe 6503 (2014-2019) 2009 r-pod 171 (2009-2014) Middle Tn 2014 Ram 1500 Quad cab |
Posted By: StreetSweeper
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2022 at 6:30am
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The nations electric grid absolutely will not handle more than a couple electric vehicles per city block and that would strain it. The grid can barely handle air conditioners now. ------------- "SWIZZLE STICK" '22 #171 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon |
Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2022 at 10:14am
Maybe if you live in Texas. Oh wait. You do. All the friends and relatives we have (with EVs) tend to do most of their charging overnight when the load is lower. Some charge their EVs with solar when they have surplus power. It may be an additional strain, but not as bad as many might think. ------------- bp 2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River 2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2022 at 10:23am
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+1 to GG.
EVs can be recharged overnight when electrical demand is low. Many utilities are already providing time of use EV tariffs for their EV owning customers. Air conditioners OTOH peak operating period conicides with the grid peak load in the late afternoon and early evening, and there's nothing than can be done about that. Furthermore the next EV generation, starting with the Ford F150, will enable bidirectional charging, so a portion of the EVs storage can be dispatched to provide grid support, as well as used to provide autonomous household operation during outages. Distributed EVs and renewable energy systems will form the backbone of the future grid and make it more robust, rather than burden it. All the tech for this exists today and is being tested in numerous locations around the world. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: StreetSweeper
Date Posted: 13 Jun 2022 at 11:53am
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Having worked in the industry in another state I am very familiar with electric generation nationwide. The national grid will not be able to sustain more than a couple EV's per city block no matter when they are charged. ------------- "SWIZZLE STICK" '22 #171 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 13 Jun 2022 at 6:05pm
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Sorry but you are not incorrect. I have worked in the renewable industry for over 40 years and have been deeply involved in development of these technologies. Aggregated battery dispatch works identically to aggregated load shedding, which is widespread now. EVs will be part of the solution not part of the problem.
It ain't your daddy's electrical grid. Read this for example as it is directly applicable to the ERCOT situation. https://cleantechnica-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/cleantechnica.com/2022/06/10/ercot-tesla-how-virtual-power-plants-can-help-texas-electricity-grid-save-lives/amp/?amp_js_v=a6&_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw%3D%3D#aoh=16551612251358&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&_tf=From%20%251%24s&share=https%3A%2F%2Fcleantechnica.com%2F2022%2F06%2F10%2Fercot-tesla-how-virtual-power-plants-can-help-texas-electricity-grid-save-lives%2F - ERCOT Aggregated Energy Storage Demo ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 13 Jun 2022 at 6:44pm
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Seems to me the issue is a moving target. Years ago, the three basic electric grids, east west and Texas, may not have been able to support EV charging in a massive scale. But so what? Electric vehicles are gradually being phased in and there are some pretty smart people making all kinds of changes to our electric grids, such as the ERCOT system, proffered by OG. But, there are a whole lot more and as EV's achieve greater and greater numbers, more and more changes to the grids, such as storage systems, more wind and solar generation, and even nuclear, that will be coming on line. We really need a national grid to fully take advantage of the wind and sunlight variations across our beautiful country. As we expand EV's, we will also evolve our grid to meet the demand. ------------- Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 13 Jun 2022 at 7:00pm
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The problem is that we don't really have a national grid in this country. We have a set of independent system operators (ISOs). ERCOT is the system operator for most of TX. It it unique in that it isn't even interconnected with the rest of the country.
Essentially TX decided to go it alone. As such they are not subject to FERC regulations, which are intended to provide grid security and reliability. The results of that decision are now pretty obvious. This is a pretty good explanation of how are grid is structured for anyone who wants to dig into it a bit. https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/electricity/delivery-to-consumers.php#:~:text=In%20the%20United%20States%2C%20the,customers%20all%20across%20the%20country. - US Grid Explained ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: StreetSweeper
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2022 at 1:34am
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I never worked in ERCOT though I am in Texas now. Curious where this excess energy will come from. It isn't windmills, those will never generate the power it took to create them. It's been made too expensive to build new coal fired plants. Nuclear, though safe and reliable has a bad reputation. Hydro is great but there isn't enough water in most of the country besides the uproar that would ensure building them. Solar has promise but it isn't there yet. It isn't just the generation either. The 12.5 distribution system couldn't handle the massive load draw. 34.5 can handle more but it's dangerous in distribution. The transformers at the subs will likely need upgrading as will the feeder transformers. Then there's the home. The vast majority of existing homes will need to be rewired for charging. Again, yes the existing system can handle the 1's and 2's but every home charging an EV? No, not presently; to make it work expect huge rate increases for a long time. ------------- "SWIZZLE STICK" '22 #171 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon |
Posted By: David and Danette
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2022 at 3:19am
I had been recently shopping for a new walk behind mower and was surprised to find the number of electric mowers. More electric mowers on display than gasoline mowers but after researching and reading reviews electric mowers made no sense for our 1/2 acre lot. As with motor vehicles the range of operation is the problem and the lifespan of batteries and the cost to replace them. I ended up buying another gasoline mower that's what sense. And mentioning power grids capable of handling charging motor vehicles you will have electric mowers needing to be charged too!  ------------- 2018 Vista Cruiser 19BFD (2018- 2012 Vibe 6503 (2014-2019) 2009 r-pod 171 (2009-2014) Middle Tn 2014 Ram 1500 Quad cab |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2022 at 5:09am
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Not sure what research you did but when I did mine several years ago I bought a self driven walk behind electric mower which easily did my 1/2 acre suburban lot. Steep slopes too. If you need to do a larger area then just buy a second battery, takes 2 seconds to swap. Zero maintenance and no stinky messy fuel cans to fill.
Then we moved to a small farm and I bought an electric riding mower which easily does my 1 acre lawn area, also steep. I now have an electric string trimmer, chainsaw leaf blower, limbing saw, and hedge trimmer. All of them work great, use the same batteries, and are more than capable of the maintainance demands of my 25 acres. Well maybe not the chainsaw it has an 18 inch bar so if I ever have a really large tree to cut up then I might need to borrow something larger. Electric splitter and pressure washer too but those are plug ins. The only gasoline tool I still have is a chipper, it's old and I'll probably replace it soon with an electric one, or fit it with and electric motor. Electric mowers aren't ready for my 14 acres of pasture though, I have an old Ford diesel tractor with a 6 ft bush hog for that. Electric tractors are coming, multiple companies are working on them, electric motors are idea for tractors because of their high torque. But new tractors are too expensive for my budget. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2022 at 6:32am
Wow I haven't seen so much misinformation in a single paragraph in a long time. Here are some facts, Google them up yourself if you want. Energy payback period (the time it takes for the project to return the energy used to produce it) of wind generation: less than 1 year Energy payback period of photovoltaic (solar) generation: less than 2 years. And of course if the equipment was produced using renewable energy to being with then there is zero net carbon production. So the answer to where the energy will come from is renewables. It is happening as we speak. Renewables (wind and solar) accounted for 81% if the 28 GW of new installed electrical capacity in the US in 2021. Renewables are over 25% of total capacity now. An additional 30 GW of renewables is expected this year of which more than half will be solar. These prohects are private investments, no one would be installing them if they wasn't "there yet", whatever that means. Far from considering new coal projects coal plants are being retired rapidly, they are not economically viable relative to renewables or natural gas. I agree with you re nuke plants, it is possible for them to be operated safely, the French and the US Navy have demonstrated that with the right management structure and training it can be done. It is human error that has caused the infamous accidents that have led to the demise of that industry (except for Chernobyl which was caused by both human error and a terrible plant design). Whether this could be done properly in our deregulated and highly fragmented electrical generation system is highly debatable. You do know that the TMI operators were indicted for falsifying safety test results? I wouldn't want to rely on ERCOT to manage more of them for example. But the bottom line is that no one wants a nuke in their back yard. They are extremely expensive plants as well, far more expensive than renewables (about 5 to 10x higher just in installed cost, not counting operation and fuel costs) so investors won't touch them. There have been zero new nuke plants started in this country since Three Mile Island. So coal is dying and nuclear is dead, the good hydro sites are already in use, or are simply not available in many parts of the country. New generation will be renewables and natural gas for the forseeable future. Even if all US cars changed to EVs overnight the grid can easily handle charging them. You are assuming that all EVs will be charged at the same time and that will coincide with the afternoon and evening load peak. That is simply not the case, EVs can charge overnight when demand is low. Many if not most utilities have tariffs set up for for that already. And of course it will be many years before the transition to elecric is completed. The transmission and distribution infrastructure can handle it fine. https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesmorris/2021/11/13/electricity-grids-can-handle-electric-vehicles-easily--they-just-need-proper-management/?sh=4f3e40497862 - EV transition Charging EVs at home is done via a level 2 charger which requires a 50A 240V circuit. Not a big deal to install unless you only have a 100A service. The "holy grail" is using EVs as distributed energy storage. This will allow much deeper penetration of renewables because the storage mitigates the intermittency of the renewable resources. The typical EV battery has enough capacity to run a residence for several days and far more than enough to shift solar output a few hours so it can councide with the late sfternoon load peak. This requires a bidirectional charger/inverter. Ford will be the first in this country to offer this equipment along with the F150 Lightning. Nissan has been doing this in Japan for many years, but not here. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2022 at 9:16am
And there's the rub. Production of the lithium used in batteries requires LOTS of fossil fuel as does the copper, nickle, and other materials. Plastics needed to make things lighter (those batteries are quite heavy) take petroleum products. Solar panels take lots of energy to produce also, even if they now do return more energy than they used to. Then there is the water use, the environmental damage, and the conditions under which these materials are mined/produced. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jan/03/child-labour-toxic-leaks-the-price-we-could-pay-for-a-greener-future - https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jan/03/child-labour-toxic-leaks-the-price-we-could-pay-for-a-greener-future And another article. https://www.heartland.org/news-opinion/news/is-it-ethical-to-purchase-a-lithium-battery-powered-ev - https://www.heartland.org/news-opinion/news/is-it-ethical-to-purchase-a-lithium-battery-powered-ev Not to mention that the range issue of EVs still is an issue. They are still best for in and around city use, not for the cross-country trips like the 6,100 mile one we just completed. ------------- StephenH Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS |
Posted By: StreetSweeper
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2022 at 9:34am
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I worked in the industry for decades, I guess we'll see who's mis-informed. ------------- "SWIZZLE STICK" '22 #171 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon |
Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2022 at 10:01am
That is so very wrong. In this area, we already have way more than 2 per block. In fact, in several areas I know there have almost an EV in every other house. I know a few people who own two EVs by themselves. You need to get informed before making such obviously wrong proclamations. ------------- bp 2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River 2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2022 at 1:22pm
We don't have to wait. We already know. I've already provided multiple links to actual data refuting your statements, and I've worked as an engineer, project manager, and business development manager in this specific field for over 40 years. You have provided zero supporting evidence for your statements. As GG says, it is best to do a little research before making obviously incorrect proclamations. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2022 at 4:12pm
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StephenH, there are numerous studies showing that the energy requirement to produce Li EV batteries is around 50-100 kwh/kwh capacity depending on where and how they are manufactured. For a typical 65 kwh EV battery that is roughly 6 months electric consumption for the average US household.
BTW the energy requirement to refine (just to refine, not including extraction, shipment, and delivery) of the gasoline an equivalent ICE car uses over it's lifetime is a similar number. The 50-100 kwh/kwh means that the energy payback of the battery is around 50-100 battery cycles, out of a lifetime measured in thousands of cycles. Photovoltaic energy payback is less than 2 years, out of a lifetime of 35 years or more, only around 5% of their production. Wind is less than a year. So no, these technologies don't take " a lot of energy to produce. When zero carbon electricity (renewables, nuclear, hydro) are used for the manufacturing of these products carbon production approaches zero. That is very important to understand. The more low carbon electricity in the mix the better things get from a carbon production standpoint, and that is happening rapidly. The point is that together renewables, EVs, stationary batteries and aggregation and dispatch technology form a virtuous circle. As for negative environmental impacts from manufacturing, certainly those exist. Nothing humans do at an economically significant scale is without impact. And nothing humans do has more significance or impact than energy production and transportation, except maybe food production. Oil production, refining, and transportation have tremendous negative environmental impact as we all know. That's not to dismiss the need to improve the extraction and manufacturing processes as much as we can. Of course we should. Just as we did semiconductor manufacturing which was horribly polluting in the early days but is much much cleaner now. I remember being told just to dump TCE down the drain in the processing lab at MIT back in the mid 70's). Re your articles, one is in a far left publication which tends to never be satisfied unless everything is perfect. The other is in a far right publication which tends to resist any change to the status quo. Neither is where one should look for an unbiased assessment of technical or economic issues. Re EV range anxiety, that horse has been beaten to death here and really isn't the topic of the current discussion. Either an EV makes sense for your use case or it doesn't. If it doesn't, by all means don't buy one. If it does, by all means consider it, performance, reliability, maintenance, and fuel cost are all working in the EVs favor. Either way stay tuned, range and charging system access are increasing rapidly, and prices are decreasing as volume increases and competition among the manufacturers heats up. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2022 at 4:50pm
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The point is that "green" energy isn't always so green. ------------- StephenH Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS |
Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2022 at 8:32pm
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There are some YouTub videos that are sponsored by the viewers via Patreon, or so they say, that present a series of topics on renewable energy, storage of electricity, and other technical innovations. Watching them give me some hope that we'll not run into the concerns expressed by S.Sweeper. Here's the link: http://www.youtube.com/c/JustHaveaThink - https://www.youtube.com/c/JustHaveaThink What is especially encouraging is that there are electron storage systems for large scale storage use that don't run into the complications of lithium/nickel. ------------- Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2022 at 6:18am
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Nothing is perfectly green but some technologies come very close. I chose a career in PV because it clearly had the potential to be one of those, and now indeed it is, 40 years later.
If you look today it is about the only energy generation technology not subject to NIMBY. No one minds if solar is installed on their neighbors roof. Everything else raises objections, including wind turbines and worst of all nuclear. But even solar installations can have some negative impacts. My personal gripe is installing large PV projects on farmland as is being done in many parts of the country because it's cheaper than using rooftops or brown field sites. EV batteries, like electronic device batteries, have a key criteria which is the requirement for high energy density, because they are being dragged around in the vehicle/device. Hence the success of Li technologies over the past 30 years. Grid energy storage doesn't have that constraint, it really doesn't matter much what a stationary battery weighs or how much space it takes up. So why are most of the grid energy storage systems being deployed based on Li batteries? Because the technology is well developed and there cost effective products are available at an industrial scale. That's because of high demand, first for laptops, cell phones, and other electronic devices later for electric power tools, and now for EVs. There are potentially much better battery technologies for grid storage. One interesting one is the flow battery, the most promising of which which uses iron and salt water as it's active materials. Can't get a whole lot more benign than iron and salt. But flow batteries are big, they are deployed in shipping container sized building blocks, their footprint is measured in MWH per acre. There hasnt been a market demand for this kind of product until recently, as grids in some regions are reaching their maximum renewable penetration without storage. Will this kind of strange system be successful? It's not as clear as with EV batteries, which fulfill a clear transportation need and which can be aggregated to also perform grid storage functions. Then there is the incumbent technology advantage, which can't be overestimated. Li has a huge 30-30 year advantage in terms of learning curve and scale, and many pathways exist to improve it further. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2022 at 3:50pm
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Lithium certainly has a jump start on other electron storage systems, but there are other ideas being developed. Here are a few of some other storage possibilities: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QaZmoh4K7E - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QaZmoh4K7E http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHNELRnJ_4Y - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHNELRnJ_4Y http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tEkRRec3NE - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tEkRRec3NE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DFKxoD_a3k - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DFKxoD_a3k The site is filled with other discussions of alternate storage systems. What's clear is that we can and will solve the problem of energy storage, if we make the collective decision to do it.
------------- Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2022 at 5:13am
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The issue with that discussion like much of the discussion around grid storage, is that there is still a lot of old thinking. The assumption is that storage projects need to be implemented in an industrial scale. The electrical utilities think that way because that is what they do.
For the same reason utilities have always been hostile toward distributed renewables because they don't get revenue prom their energy production. Of course. But as both solar and wind deployment and demand side management (DSM) have demonstrated, smaller scale projects, down to the residential scale, can in aggregate provide a very significant contribution to our energy mix. Applying that same concept to energy storage will strongly favor supplying most of that requirement with the batteries in the EVs themselves because they have already been paid for. That makes them far more economical than grid scale alternatives, and favors use of Li batteries (because that is the energy storage technology of choice for mobility applications) for grid storage purposes as well. And the amount of storage available in EVs will dwarf that deployed in utility scale projects. Put another way, why manufacture and deploy centralized grid energy storage when the EV storage capacity is already deployed? The utilities will have to either climb on board the train or get out of the way. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2022 at 5:42am
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Bottom line, lithium/nickel batteries alone can't do the job. The supples of lithium and nickel are limited and the extraction process is very damaging to the environment. Three quarters of the known lithium deposits are in Chile, Argentina, and Bolivia, all in very fragile ecosystems. Nickel mining is also problematic. Most comes from Indonesia, Australia, and Russia. Low grade nickel ore is open pit mined with terrible environmental damage. Though EV battery storage will be a major element of any electric grid storage system, much, much more will be needed beyond the capacity of EV vehicles. We must keep an open mind to all viable and environmentally responsible methods for energy storage. Putting all our eggs in one basket will not end well for humanity nor our planet. ------------- Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2022 at 5:50am
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"Though EV battery storage will be a major element of any electric grid storage system, much, much more will be needed beyond the capacity of EV vehicles"
That is incorrect. On what do you base that statement? See below. https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2020/01/29/electric-vehicle-batteries-could-dwarf-the-grids-energy-storage-needs/ - EV storage capacity ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2022 at 7:00am
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Quote from the Forbes article: "'It really needs to change the behavior of the consumer to be able to harness the synergies between mobility and wind and solar,'" [Francisco Boshell] And another quote: "There are other driver-based obstacles, such as concerns about range anxiety and battery health in a vehicle that exchanges power with the grid." What would be the impact on battery life of such an interconnected battery in a vehicle? How much shorter would be the life of the battery? Who would bear the cost of replacing the battery when it is no longer serviceable? Would the utility company then be responsible at least in part to replace the batteries in vehicles so used? There are lots of details that would need to be worked out before such a system is implemented. ------------- StephenH Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2022 at 9:10am
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Good questions. My main point with the article was to establish that there will be plenty of storage capacity embodied in EVs on as they proliferate as expected.
We do have some idea what the answers to your questions are going to be. First, the storage capacity is owned by the vehicle owner, at least in the EV ownership model that we expect to be most comment in the US. In some other markets many China 3rd party battery ownership is quite comment, as we've discussed in this forum before. Regardless of who owns the storage that investor will expect to be compensated for offering access to his asset. This is capitalism in action after all. The mechanisms for doing that are already in place in many of the US electricity markets. Day ahead, hour ahead, frequency support, and time of use markets exist now. The pricing in these markets is nodal, meaning that pricing is specific to the level of congestion at different geographic locations on the grid. The prices at some of these congested nodes on some hot summer afternoons can be very lucrative if you have capacity available. So the markets exist for electricity to be bought and sold to allow production and demand to balance out. Not only does this apply to energy producers but there are also demand side aggregators selling "negawatts" via load reduction. You can sign up to allow your air conditioner to be set back remotely under certain conditions for a given time, and get paid to do it. "Negawatts" of load reduction are the equivalent of bringing up a peaking plant to produce more energy as far as the grid managers are concerned. Dispatch of on site battery storage works the same way. Several companies including Tesla, have business entities set up to do exactly that. So far Tesla is just doing it in a trial basis with their Powerwall customers, but the extension to EVs with bidirectional chargers is the obvious next step. As for battery life, it is expected that Li batteries will outlive the vehicles they are in so that shouldn't be an issue. More of an issue will be to assure that the vehicle owner isnt stranded because his battery has just been fully discharged by the utility right before he wants to go somewhere. Tesla is addressing that with their Powerwall systems by allowing the homeowner to set the allowable discharge level based on his expected usage. So if you are planning a long trip the next day you should be able to opt out of the capacity program prior to your departure. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2022 at 10:46am
I'm not as worried about lithium as I am about cobalt and nickel. All the EV manufacturers are experimenting with battery technologies that reduce and/or eliminate the need for those metals. Lithium has many alternative sources (EG geothermal vents, seawater, dry lake beds). Another thing I heard about on Science Friday was the idea of polymer batteries. They are not as energy dense as lithium, but the possible recharge cycles is astronomical compared to lithium. https://www.sciencefriday.com/segments/plastic-battery-grid-storage/ - Science Friday ------------- bp 2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River 2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2022 at 1:58pm
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So here's my question.
We have an excellent EV battery technology available today. Does the job well for most uses, and is undergoing continuous improvement and enjoying the benefits of economies of scale due to massive investment. But it, like all large scale industrial activity, has it's issues. But those are nowhere near comparable to the enormous environmental and social impacts of oil extraction, transportation, refining, more transportation. and all the pollution associated with those. That's not even mentioning the GHG emissions from the vehicles thenselves or the dependence of oil prices on the geopolitical situation du jour. Putin sneezes and we have $5.00 gas... Would you actually choose an ICE vehicle with all those problems over an EV with Li batteries, assuming range was not an issue for you? If so then IMO that is a case of the perfect being the enemy of the good, and falls into the same category as those who reject nuclear power because you have to deal with the radioactive waste, wind turbines because they can kill birds, or solar because it uses what otherwise could be farmland. Nothing is or ever will be the perfect solution, the scale needed to meet humans' energy needs is just to big. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2022 at 4:45pm
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Add to that, And fusion energy is always just over the horizon. ------------- StephenH Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 17 Jun 2022 at 5:47am
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Let's hold out for this: https://youtu.be/ptlhgFaB89Y - Mr Fusion  ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 17 Jun 2022 at 6:59am
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That lithium batteries in EV's can alone provide enough storage for the world's electrical grids is utopian thinking. Such a proposition fails to take into account that the approximately 2B ICE vehicles will be replaced gradually as they become affordable for individuals and institutions. Until there is adequate density of EV batteries available to share on a "smart" charging system, there won't be enough storage to meet the storage requirements created by wind and solar generating systems (provided we construct these as fast as we should). Such a proposition also assumes that everyone who has an EV will connect it to a "smart charging" system and share their batteries. In as much as batteries have a life cycle of charging and discharging, there may be those who don't want to put their costly batteries through charge/discharge cycles on a public shared grid. StephenH points out this problem and I think he is probably correct. The article OG cited is an opinion, not a fact. I hope it is true, but we cannot, as I stated before, put all our eggs in one basket. And, as I previously stated, the environmental issues of lithium, nickel mining need to be mitigated. It is easy to dismiss these concerns provided you don't live in one of the countries being affected by this activity. I doubt anyone would welcome such a mine on the property next to his/her farm. We can overcome many of these issues, but to be on the safe side, we need to keep exploring new possibilities. ------------- Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 17 Jun 2022 at 10:28am
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I personally don't believe that EV batteries are "the" solution. What I do believe is that there is a wide array of little solutions to the much larger problem. No one thing will fix this for us, but each and every one of the little solutions will hopefully add up to a way out of the problem we've drilling ourselves into for the last century. ------------- bp 2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River 2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 28 Jun 2022 at 7:16am
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Distributed battery storage for grid support tests are expanding. Note the compensation and opt out incentives for the storage owners.
https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2022/06/24/pacific-gas-electric-calls-for-participation-in-tesla-virtual-power-plant-pilot/ - CA grid storage test 90+ percent of grid battery storage utilizes Li batteries, driven by volume and cost Li battery reduction from EV demand. 2.8 TWH Li battery annual production capacity is expected by 2025. All other battery options will be at best a tiny fraction of that figure. For the US grid to be essentially 100% renewable we would need about 6TWH of storage capacity by 2050. Li is the only battery technology able to deliver the kind of scale needed soon enough, to think there will be any other alternative battery technology of sufficient scale in the next decade or longer is magical thinking. Investors have already placed their bets on Li. To fill out the picture over 90% of grid storage is pumped hydro. Unfortunately, hydro sites are limited and dams and reservoirs suffer greatly from NIMBY so are hard to get approved and built. The DOE projects grid battery storage to become dominant by around the end of the decade. If you think it's urgent to get battery grid storage in place at scale then you should strongly support dual use of EV batteries for grid storage, otherwise the environmental impacts will be significantly worse because battery capacity will be duplicated and far more batteries will be needed. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 28 Jun 2022 at 10:13am
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I don't disagree that currently the best storage option is Li. However, it is also my personal belief that the long-term solution will be a much more distributed storage and generation scheme. At present, most utilities are heavily invested in selling power, and not their distribution system. It is the primary reason that solar grid-tie is such a big issue all over the country. If they can change their mind set, and start charging for distribution in some fashion, they might be much more receptive to distributed storage and generation. ------------- bp 2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River 2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 28 Jun 2022 at 1:33pm
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Having spent much of my career in solar fighting the utility companies' antiquated mindset, I completely agree. The traditional utilities are stuck with the idea that their revenue must come from power generation and so have usually viewed distributed renewables as competition and resisted them.
But that is different now in the open energy markets, PJM being the largest example. In those markets transmission, distribution and production of electricity have been separated, so it is very possible for an aggregator (for example Tesla) to sign up and sell distributed power and/or grid support services. That is likely going to be where the innovations happen first. I also agree that while grid connected Li batteries can be deployed either distributed or centralized, it makes sense to distribute them. That way they can perform both a grid support function as well as provide their owners with autonomous operation when there are grid failures. My point here is that if those batteries are also serving as EV storage, we have minimized the economic and environment impacts of deploying storage. The storage is needed so it's going to happen one way or another. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2022 at 5:49pm
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Here's the answer we've been looking for.
Grid energy storage using elevators in skyscrapers, with robots storing wet sand ballast in the corridors. And the robots will be programmed to get out of the elevators if ppl need to use them. https://interestingengineering.com/turning-skyscrapers-into-storage-devices - Skyscraper energy storage. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2022 at 6:09am
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Someone should talk to some elevator engineers about this. The proponents don't seem to be clear on how elevators work, not to mention the complexities of moving their wet sand. I assume this is satire. For a good overview of new energy storage technology, there is a great series on YouTube, which I mentioned before, called Just Have a Think, that reviews emerging technologies for energy capture and storage. http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=just+have+a+think - https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=just+have+a+think ------------- Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2022 at 7:26am
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not satire, apparently. someone spent quite a lot of time looking at this.
Here is a link to the researchers published study 0 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360544222010052 - Lift energy storage My thought is that post Covid everyone wants to work from home anyway. So why not just vacate the top half of all those high rise office buildings and use half of each building and half the elevators for energy storage? That still leaves half of each building for human use, let the robots and sand have the rest so nobody's feet need to be run over. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2022 at 8:27am
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Like I say, the author proposing this approach best talk to some elevator engineers. He's not quite clear on how elevators utilize energy. The heavy lifting for elevators is in the down direction because the counterweights weigh 1.6 times the weight of the cabin, with a cargo/passenger load evening out the balance of the weight. It also fails to account for the wear and tear, with the need for increased maintenance that would result from such heavy loads. And we haven't even touched on the energy consumed by the robots moving back and forth with heavy loads of the wet sand, which will inevitably get spilled into the elevator are leading to extraordinarily expensive repairs. This is a very complex "solution" that can be achieved by so many other simple means. It is a violation of the KISS rule in spades. When a quality elevator company, such as Otis, Schindler, Kone, Mitsubishi, or Thyssen buys into such a "solution." It will have some credibility. Until then, it's pretty much pie in the sky.
Here is a little more realistic approach: http:// schindler-solar-elevator-powered-exclusively-by-sunlight-1765 - schindler-solar-elevator-powered-exclusively-by-sunlight-1765 http://www.pv-magazine.com/2019/09/10/solar-powered-elevator-unveiled-in-spain/ - https://www.pv-magazine.com/2019/09/10/solar-powered-elevator-unveiled-in-spain/ http://us.schindler.com/en/media/news-press-releases/schindler-introduces-advanced-solar-elevator.html - https://us.schindler.com/en/media/news-press-releases/schindler-introduces-advanced-solar-elevator.html http://www.transparencymarketresearch.com/solar-powered-elevator-market.html - https://www.transparencymarketresearch.com/solar-powered-elevator-market.html
------------- Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2022 at 4:55pm
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From what you describe as the energy profile of conventional cable based counterweighted elevators, it sounds like the skyscraper storage concept would work much better with the cable-less Thyssen maglev elevator technology the article refers to. The only problem I guess is it costs 5x what a normal elevator costs. But it can go sideways as well as up and down. Willy Wonka anyone?
As for a solar elevator, it's going to be better to just grid tie the solar instead. That way none of the energy is wasted when the batteries get full and elevator usage is low, it can get used elsewhere in the building or by other grid customers. Same problem happens with solar powered EVs, better to put the solar on the roof and grid tie it rather than on the car itself. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2022 at 5:37pm
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The Thyssen mag-lev system has been an unmitigated disaster. It is phenomenally expensive to maintain, breaks more often than an R-Pod, is a true Rub Goldberg of moving parts that fails frequently. I've been away from the elevator business for a bit, but the hourly rates for a weekend call back is about $1,500 an hour for a repair team of 2 mechanics, portal to portal. I don't have any information on the energy consumption, but I doubt it is more efficient than a modern traction elevator with a VFVV drive ac gearless machine. Another thing that is being missed is the fact that the busy time for elevators is mostly during daylight hours. So the sun doesn't shine very well when they want to spill the sand in the doorway. At night is the time when the elevators in most places are quiet. Not much direct solar is available at 2 am. Robots are another thing that is complication. I worked with a number of jobs where hospitals used robotic drug dispensaries. They drove all over the hospital and rode the elevators. It was wonderful. At least a couple times a month, usually on weekend nights, they'd crash into the hatch doors and knock them off the tracks so they couldn't close. Elevators don't run with open doors in ideal circumstances. The callback for the emergency repair team was usually around $8K or $9K. Helped pay for my friends boats and motorcycles, not to mention their very reasonable dues to IUEC Local 8. As for solar elevators, the left over electrons from the day's running are usually stored in batteries and used at night during times of low usage. Code limitations also restrict mixing elevator operation with other building systems. It may not be permitted to share the battery storage with other building systems. Solar power for solar elevators is roof mounted. Schindler has been one of the leaders of solar vertical transportation research. That was one of the reasons they were one of the sponsors of the Solar Impulse project. They learned a great deal of technical information they were able to transfer to vertical transportation systems.
------------- Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 07 Jul 2022 at 4:05am
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I was kidding about the Thyssen Wonavator.
It's not a day/night problem, batteries do take care of that. It's a summer/winter problem. Trust me I designed these systems for a living for 40 years. Off grid solar is never anywhere near as efficient as grid tied because of seasonal solar insolation variation. If you size the PV array for winter operation when the available insolation is low you will waste the excess energy production in summer to avoid battery overcharging. There is no way around that unless there is another place for the excess production to go, eg the grid. To do it with batteries you would need to install enough battery capacity to carry the load for smany months, which is totally cost and resource prohibitive. This is especially true in a northern climate like Europe where ppl tend to be most interested in this kind of thing. In northern Germany there is more than a 5x difference between June and December for example. So the Schindler solar elevator is going to appeal to architects and building owners who want to appear to be green more than they actually are green. If they really want to be green they'll install a conventional grid tied solar array and a conventional grid connected elevator system. As with Thyssen's Wonkavator, Schindler's off grid solar elevator sounds really cool but makes no practical sense. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |