Changing times

  I think perhaps the moderator should step in. This definitely is changing into a unfriendly discussion far from happy campers!

Though it pains me to say this because I am an argumentative grumpy old geezer:

tottally concur.........your guys storys are very boring,,,,,,,,how about some real issues ........go pack

sorry forum...........ther both freaks that really doesnt care,      sorry but i had to repond .jpp

Your statement "in other words" explicitly means that you are attempting to put words in my mouth. As is usual in certain professions, the best defense when losing a technical argument is to attack.

If all buildings were built in a standardized way optimizing the use of available materials, they would obviously require less resources than customized buildings do. It would make for a really boring built environment and deprive the people who are making those design decisions of any freedom of choice.

At some point when these decisions are taken to the extreme and involve environmental elements they become greenwashing, or otherwise absurd behavior. Where that point is is in the eye of the beholder.

For example I think electric Hummers step over the absurd line. Others might think that theyre fine.

But is this fraudulent behavior?

"a person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities."

I think most of the deception is probably self deception in these cases, the decision makers usually want to do the right thing but get carried away. And generally if corporations are involved the engineering staff gets a chance to keep the marking folks' claims at least somewhat in line. I wouldn't accuse GM of fraud for producing the Hummer EV. I doubt GM claims that an electric Hummer is actually greener than a gasoline fueled Prius.

The Thyssen Wonkavator and Schindler solar elevator are both somewhere on this same spectrum. Niether is fraud, but also neither is the best use of resources.

I won't argue where on the spectrum each of these is, although I would certainly expect the Wonkavator to be much closer to the absurd than the solar elevator. OTOH, I bet the Thyssen product is a whole lot more fun to ride in than the Schindler one. Unless of course it breaks while you're riding it.....

Either one is ok with me if the owner wants to pay for it.

As for the engineering involved sure
my viewpoint is opinion but it is expert opinion based on years and years of experience in the solar field. It applies to any load device, there is nothing special about elevators that would make them suddenly need far less energy in the winter than the summer so their consumption matches the seasonal solar output in northern Europe and allows them to operate efficiently without grid connection.