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P-pod for dry camping?

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pedwards2932 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pedwards2932 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: P-pod for dry camping?
    Posted: 06 Apr 2021 at 8:07am
I have the Hayes Sway master which applies trailer brakes when the TT starts to sway and it pulls the trailer back straight.  Part of what I am seeing in the video is the trailer gets out of control very quickly.  If you could manually put on the trailer brakes it would cause the trailer to straighten but under the panic of the trailer swaying more violently it is hard to think to put the breaks on the trailer.  It also appears a lot of these incidents involve driving too fast which can cause a TT to get out of control really fast.
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MarkW View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote MarkW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Apr 2021 at 8:21am
Umm. 100% of your tow vehicle's load ratings is indeed a hard and fast rule. Above that is unlawful operation of a motor vehicle on a highway, which is a crime. So don't do it, and it's is a violation of forum rules to support it.

I think you've missed the point.  For liability reasons, I don't intent to exceed the ratings or recommend anybody else do so -- and I've said that throughout this thread.  

What the difference between European and U.S. ratings (even for exactly the same vehicles sold in both markets) suggest, however, is that U.S. manufacturers are relatively conservative, so I don't see a need to take the U.S. ratings and then subtract 25% 'just to be safe because you know how car manufacturers always play fast and loose with safety'.  

And more than that, the rating doesn't even seem to be the most important factor vs having a properly balanced rig.  A pickup with a 10000# tow rating is still going to get pulled sideways (and probably then roll) if a 3000# trailer goes into uncontrolled oscillations behind it.

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offgrid View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote offgrid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Apr 2021 at 8:56am
I understand your point perfectly. Do you follow mine?

I have said about 3x now that you will get no argument from me as long as you're withing your specs. Do what you want, it's your choice.

But I haven't seen any evidence from you or anyone else towing with a 3500 lb TV demonstrating that. Go weigh your rig with everything and everybody on board and then let's talk. Until that happens it's a waste of time discussing it.

Of course you need to get sufficient weight on the tongue to avoid having an inherent trailer sway problem. While that can be more readily controlled with a heavier TV, that is not a condition anyone should want to encounter. That number for rpods based on my research is right around 10%, which is why I recommend 11%. Because that is the minimum and my weight moves around to the tune of about 3% as I consume water, I start out around 14% and end up around 11. Since my trailer weighs 3700 lbs loaded I start at 500 on the tongue, which is my max limit. Most TV hitch limits are 10% of trailer limits.

You are only as good as your limiting spec. I can't tow with anything lighter than 5000 lbs even though I have significant headroom on trailer weight (26%)and MCGVW (10%).
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pedwards2932 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Apr 2021 at 9:57am
As you know I have an Escape with 3500 lb load and 350 lb tongue weight.  I check the tongue weight when loading.  I have weighed at CAT scales and am within specs.  I carry no water and we pack light.  Would I like to have a 5000 lb tow vehicle yes but as long as I can stay within specs and I never exceed 63mph I can hold on for a while before I upgrade.  So it can be done but you have to be aware of the limits.
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offgrid View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote offgrid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Apr 2021 at 10:02am
Are you within your MCGWVR? All axle weights? Fully loaded? Some actual numbers would help folks here know what they can and can't do.
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lostagain View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote lostagain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Apr 2021 at 10:16am
TV capacity has been an ongoing debate on this forum for years and it's never really going to be resolved.  There are folks who have invested a lot of money in their travel trailers and don't really want to, or can't, incur the expense of buying a TV that has towing capacity higher than the trailer salesperson told them they needed to tow their 2200 lb. dry weight trailer.  The result is they engage in a form of denial of the reality of the physics and engineering principles.  

Good engineering practice is to build into any structure a safety margin above the anticipated use to reduce the probability of failure.  When people tow weights at or near the absolute capacity of their TV, they have no margin of safety.  The will experience premature failures, whether it's the in the drivetrain or in control of the rig.  Something will inevitably and prematurely go wrong.  The greater the percentage of over capacity in the TV, the lower the lower the probability of failure will be.  

Yes, one can tow 3500 pound travel trailer with a TV having a 3500 lb. towing limit, but it is certain that something will sooner than later break resulting in costly repairs.  More importantly, there is the issue of vehicle control and the risk of an accident.  Driving on a flat road at low speeds may be relatively safe.  On the other hand, trying to navigate a curvy mountain road with steep ascents and descents or high speed freeway conditions, the risk of an accident is high.  As I said before, if only the driver and his/her vehicle was involved, it would be simply a matter of personal choice.  But when it puts others at risk of harm, then one should be more cautious in testing the limits of one's TV.


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pedwards2932 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pedwards2932 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Apr 2021 at 10:20am
When I weighed I had about 140 lbs (3 - 5 gallon buckets of water} that I didn't know was in there, an extra full propane gas tank, and the heavy table that comes with the rp189.  At that time the trailer weight was 3400.  I have 829lb capacity for the car which with the 350 tongue and my wife and I in the car gives us about 130 lbs of leeway.  When I get a chance I will reweigh at CAT scales but I did weigh everything that I took out of the trailer which would put me at 3225 and all I have to do at that point is weigh what I add and weigh my tongue weight and balance the trailer for 350 lbs which is at least the 10% of total weight.  I always empty the water out before we travel.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote MarkW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Apr 2021 at 10:58am
When people tow weights at or near the absolute capacity of their TV, they have no margin of safety.

That's not a proven fact (that there's a quantifiable 'safety margin' that goes to zero right at the rated weight).  It's not like, say, fuel in an aircraft where you know what your fuel reserve is for the trip and where there is a sudden catastrophic failure when you exhaust the reserves (and, yes, sadly, running out of fuel is one of the most common causes of general aviation accidents).

If somebody new to towing said that they felt their trailer was swaying, and were worried they might lose control, would your first advice be to buy a bigger TV?  Or to make sure that there was sufficient tongue weight, add an sway-control system, and consider reducing speeds?  Mine would be the latter.  I'd also probably tell them that if they couldn't resolve instability problems by adjusting the load and installing anti-sway, they probably shouldn't be towing that trailer with anything.  The reason to go bigger, in my view, would be if they couldn't get enough weight on the tongue to reduce the sway without exceeding the TV's max tongue weight rating.  
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Post Options Post Options   Quote offgrid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Apr 2021 at 11:57am
Originally posted by pedwards2932

When I weighed I had about 140 lbs (3 - 5 gallon buckets of water} that I didn't know was in there, an extra full propane gas tank, and the heavy table that comes with the rp189.  At that time the trailer weight was 3400.  I have 829lb capacity for the car which with the 350 tongue and my wife and I in the car gives us about 130 lbs of leeway.  When I get a chance I will reweigh at CAT scales but I did weigh everything that I took out of the trailer which would put me at 3225 and all I have to do at that point is weigh what I add and weigh my tongue weight and balance the trailer for 350 lbs which is at least the 10% of total weight.  I always empty the water out before we travel.


Good to have some real world numbers.

Does your vehicle list axle weights and MCGVWR? Should be on the driver's door sticker. If you have those then run through the scale with your wdh untensioned and get the weights on all 3 axles.

You don't need to worry about max cargo weight of the tow vehicle. Specs are intended to be taken literally and you don't have much actual cargo weight. What matters are axle weights and max combined weight, because that is what the drivetrain and brakes have to deal with.

The hitch and trailer weights can be gotten by going through the scale a second time without the trailer. Leave the wdh in the reciever, it is considered to be part of the TV not the trailer.

If you really are within 130 lbs then you can't take any gear to speak of, but maybe using MCGVWR will help you.


350 ÷ 3225 is about 11% and I'd recommend keeping your tongue weight there if you can, around 10% the trailer can exhibit marginal stability.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote lostagain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Apr 2021 at 2:03pm
MarkW, when I stated that there would be no margin of safety, my reference was to the traditional concept of maintaining a desired percentage below the stated capacity as a margin of error.  

If you take what I said too literally, using "absolute" capacity, then it would be more analogous to the median failure point as being the "absolute" capacity.  When you reach that point, things start to break.  If a bolt has a tensile failure point of 2000 pounds, typically you do not see it used in applications where it would be subjected to 2000 pounds under normal working loads.  The working load would be a percentage of the failure point.  Our engineers can discuss this safety margin far better than I, but from a lay point of view, it is safe to say that sh*** begins to happen when you exceed the working load limit. Certainly, the TV manufactures' engineers are not recommending working loads that are equal to the failure point, but we don't know how wide the margin is and when it comes to safety, it's better to err on the side of being a little overly cautious.  

Human nature is such that people make all kinds of excuses why the rules of Nature don't apply to them.  Whether it's denying the existence of contagious pathogens or the laws of physics, when you test Mother Nature, she gets the last laugh.
Never leave footprints behind.
Fred & Maria Kearney
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