Hi all,

TIA,

Mark

P.S.  Here's the kind of thing we're hoping to do (if we could swap an Rpod into that scene in place of our Coleman tent, that would be just about perfect)

Welcome to the forum Mark.  What area of the west is your pic from?  Very nice indeed or is that your 'private' boondock campsite?

We normally boondock as well so when we 'special ordered' our 177 back in January 2011 it came without A/C, microwave/convection oven and without entertainment system and after 10 years and 36,000 + miles - no regrets.

The factory installed a vent/skylight where the a/c would have been.  We love it as it is so much brighter/lighter inside.  Without the microwave/convection oven I was able to get 2 additional shelf areas for storage - a huge plus.  We hardly ever watch tv at home, unless streaming something off a laptop or maybe an old series on dvd's like right now we are watching some "Mission Impossible' episodes from the mid 1960's - kind of fun.  No info on the toilet although 2 years ago installed a hi-rise Thetford toilet that was about 4" taller than the one from the factory.

My biggest concern would be your tow vehicle.  Unless you only plan to go on relatively flat areas like in Michigan which I see if where we are both from, you will be sorely disappointed as well as potentially putting you in harms way.  For 8 eight years our tow vehicles were '08 and '13 Ford Explorer's with 5000 and 5500 tow capacity.  Even with that pulling a 177 (empty 2415, full with FW tank and extras 2850) there were times in the Rockies which is where we camp a lot, I wish I had more 'juice' under the hood. 

Yes, another mod we did a number of years ago was to add the 3.5" lift kit.  Used a couple of floor jacks, hand tools and just under an hour of my labor - well worth it.

Unless you plan to go 'bare bones' and not add anything to the 179 you have your eye on, IMHO I would suggest looking to upgrade to at least a vehicle that can tow a minimum of 5000 lbs.  Am sure others will chime in and give their better wisdom than I have on this topic. 

We have a 179 and boondock a lot. It is great in many ways.

As others have said, the tow vehicle is marginal at best.

I weigh our rig before every trip. It varies, but not by more than 50 pounds. we usually have a canoe or two bikes-sometimes both. We also have 2 6volt batteries which improves our boondocking power supply.  but they also weigh more.  also, if you add double propane tank, that adds.  so the weights given by the marketeers can be way off.  You will probably come close to 3900 pounds once loaded.

There are lots of great mods that can be done to the 179 and a lot can increase the boondocking experience.

so welcome, read the forum past posts -particularly mods to 179 .

Learn as you go. Be safe

Vann

As for the tow vehicle, we have both a Toyota Sienna and Subaru Outback XT, each rated for 3500#.  I'm not too worried, we've had a 26' trailerable sailboat for 20 years.  It has a loaded weight around the same as the R-pod and it's never been a problem.  We do plan to go as light as possible, though -- so no AC or microwave and probably won't ever fill the fresh water tanks.  We're used to a week of tent camping requiring a 6 gallon jerry can of water -- maybe with a refill (having been sailers, we're good at 'marine' showers -- wet down, soap up, rinse off).  

It looks to me that with the AC and microwave removed, we should be able to get the dry weight down to around 2700# or a bit less before we start adding things -- or are the placards showing GVW and max cargo really way off?

I love Big Bend!  But you're getting a lot of advice from experienced people about towing with a heftier vehicle.  It's good advice in my opinion.  You're right on the line with a 3500 lb towing capacity.  You really don't want to be on the line. It's your safety and you peace of mind while towing that are on that line.

And Pods are great, but I also agree with the idea of why by a trailer with air conditioning, a microwave, a flush toilet, if you don't want that stuff?!  There are other good trailers out there without those things that you might be able to buy new for the same amount as a used Pod with them.

TT

https://www.rvtrader.com/listing/2021-Gulf-Stream-Vista-Cruiser-17RWD-5014071221 - https://www.rvtrader.com/listing/2021-Gulf-Stream-Vista-Cruiser-17RWD-5014071221

If we ordered without the AC, microwave and awning that we don't want, that should knock off another couple of thousand.  If the 179 doesn't work out, we might go that way.  Although I'm a little allergic to a brand new TT (lots of folks seem to have niggling problems in the first couple years that require return visits to the dealer and it sounds like often the warranty work is really slow).

I believe pedwards info is spot on for consideration in response to the OP's questions. The OP knows his equipment and has experience towing with his vehicles. I am more concerned with the frontal drag effect of the rpod vs a sailboat than I am the weight. Having towed our 179 in a strong head wind and becoming a safety hazard on the hwy when I couldn't maintain 55 mph once with a tow vehicle rated to tow substantially more weight, it is a real item to ponder. If he wants to adjust his travel plans and speed to fit his available equipment, he can do so knowingly. His questions are about his mod's. My $0.02 

https://safaricondo.com/en/caravanes-alto/ - https://safaricondo.com/en/caravanes-alto-serie-f-1743/

Beautiful and lightweight. And 3-4x the price of a used pod

You seem determined to go ahead, so go ahead.  Sounds like you have a good deal and your plan is doable, little doubt.  For safety and enjoyment, there are probably better options. 

I know people ask questions like yours hoping to get a lot of positive reinforcement.  It might be worth paying attention when that's not what you get.

TT

+1 !!!!   This was an item I forgot to mention in my first post Mark and is of utmost importance.  The "frontal drag" effect is a huge item to consider.  Whereas you could haul a sailboat or pop-up camper with weights that may come close or even surpass that of the rpod, frontal drag effect will be deal breaker in my mind once you start cruising at 45 + down the highway.  You will definitely 'feel' the difference and may want to re-consider a vehicle that is more stout in its towing ability.

Your own TV (a 2012 Highlander) has almost exactly the same HP (270), curb weight (3900#), and wheelbase as our 2020 Outback (vehicles do keep growing don't they)?  The OB is also a turbo, so more power at altitude.  My wife's Sienna, on the other hand, is more powerful still, weights another 400# and has 10 more inches of wheelbase (always a benefit when towing).  Neither vehicle is going to be overpowered or pushed around if a 2012 Highlander isn't.   

Before we make a deal on the 179, I'll get the dealer to put it on a scale.  If it's hundreds over the sticker, we'll pass.  But if it's close then I think we'd be able to stay right around 3000-3100# loaded given how we want to use it (just the two of us, single battery, single propane tank, empty water tanks).  The travel trailer we really want doesn't actually exist -- roomy and comfortable with heat but otherwise spartan with no AC, no plumbing, and maybe even a really well-insulated icebox instead of a fridge.  Oh, and not too pricey (I don't really want to spend $40K -- we just aren't going to use it THAT much).  I briefly pondered building one but quickly decided there wasn't any way I could make it worthwhile compared to buying used and modding. 

But we've probably beaten this one to death -- here's another question.  Any experience with the Curt wireless brake controller?  I was planning on going that route to avoid having to install and to be able to move between tow vehicles.

That's a nice trailer! 

I went with a Redarc, wired, inertia sensing brake controller to reduce fiddling.  I can still push the button/dial to apply the trailer brakes.  I like it. 

I run a Scanguage II to monitor tranny temp. 

Trying to be very weight conscious, I have added 175 pounds of pots, dishes, sheets, towels, cleaning supplies, coffee supplies, toaster, rugs, hoses, cables, hitch .... everything I'd need but food for a trip to a disaster.  You'll likely not need to carry cables to boondock, but the rest you'll probably want.  It's just too comfortable to have them. 

In my case, Forest River's Unloaded Vehicle Weight of 2950 lbs, was just about spot on.  It's listed dry weight of 2760, or so, wasn't close. 

I do not need a weight distributing hitch, but I did install a friction anti-sway control.  It was cheap and light.  i don't know if I need it, but it makes me feel better. 

i also recommend a wireless rear camera.  It helps parking and changing lanes. 

I built a spreadsheet based on actual weights and positions of various bits in my trailer.  You can have a copy to modify, if you like. 

Keep up with this board.  It has loads of useful information no matter what brand trailer you have.

https://www.mikejonesmotors.com/--xInventoryDetail?id=9817089

Ready to roll (batteries, food, water, propane, pots and pans, clothes, etc) I bet that trailer is gonna be right at 3500 pounds with 300-500 pounds tongue weight.

Good luck.

I for one think you've looked at things pretty closely and with your previous experience will have a good time doing what you enjoy. Be safe and all the best!

We towed with empty tanks in the trailer (in fact, since it was predicted to dip below freezing a couple of nights, we never filled up with water at all -- using jugs and our pressurized insect-sprayer shower).  In place of the blackwater system, we used a porta pottie -- now permanently installed with a floorplate -- which we dumped in the vault toilet (handy because the campground had no hookups or dump station).  All in all a dry camping success even with the cold nights.  I was a bit worried the furnace blower would eat the battery, but a brief recharge every morning using jumper cables kept us topped up.  All in all a success, and Red River Gorge is highly recommended if you're anywhere in the region -- lots of really great scenery and hiking trails and not very crowded (in March anyway).

The only reason I have not done that so far, is because at the LTVA's in Arizona and California, you are required to have on-board, permanently mounted, black water holding tanks of at least 10 gallon capacity if you camp more than 500 feet from one of the vault toilets. Rangers do enforce this, although I have never heard of one of them actually inspecting inside and underneath a rig for compliance. When they come around and run off the 'scofflaws' (usually tent campers or vandwellers with a portapottie or a bucket)  we end up calling these rangers 'pottie cops' (and a few other names I wont repeat here, you get the idea).... I guess SOMEONE has to do it.  

Typically I camp about 2 miles from the vault toilets, since the areas close to the facilities tend to be more crowded than I like.

So I'm still not sure that I want to make the change to my r-pod, and if I did, I would also be reducing the resale value...not sure I want to do that either.

Decisions, decisions.

Yes the LTVA's do have these rules, but the normal BLM land (with no vault toilets anywhere)...well, you are kinda on your own to figure it out and buckets/portapotties are OK. So there is that.

 A few days ago I got a text from him that this oversized (but still within the mfg tow ratings) trailer was swaying in the wind from every passing truck, and yes, he has wdh and sway control... and should he be buying a 3/4 ton truck? Yikes! He said he could hear me saying 'I told you so'...reason he waited before telling me...and I never said that, cuz I didnt even know he went and bought the trailer and hit the road with it. 

It's just that a good sized travel trailer will cause a 'wagging the dog effect' if the tow vehicle is simply 'outgunned' by the trailer.

'Towing authority' is what you want, and pushing the weight ratings of the trailer right up to the last digit allowable, is not how you achieve that.

Good luck.

I'm quite confident that U.S. auto manufacturers don't overestimate towing capabilities and that RV manufacturers don't underestimate dry weights -- if for no reason other than the U.S. has an enormous army of trial attorneys who would love nothing better than to bring class-action suits against big corporations like auto and RV manufacturers.  

Have you ever seen the European tow ratings, BTW?  Because of $8 gas, pickups and huge SUVs are rare, and people tow large 'caravans' with ordinary passenger cars.  Here, for example, are the UK tow ratings for a VW Passat:

2200KG is....4850 LBS!  For a midsize sedan.

So no, I'm not worried about being near my much longer, heavier, more powerful van's towing limit at  1350# less than a Passat.  But for insurance/liability reasons, I don't want to go over the 3500# rating (and I want to keep it on the lighter side until we've had more experience towing the RV and gotten things dialed in with the TV and trailer loading and tongue weight, etc).

Which isn't to say that you can't have problems with trailers within the limits.  Not every vehicle rated for, say, 5000# can tow every trailer under 5000#.  Often wheelbase is a culprit:

There are two things to keep in mind though. One is the amount of margin you have. For example, if the vehicle is rated at 3500 lbs, how much of that do you consider safe for a cross-country trip? I would argue that you don't want to go over ~~ 75% of the total "rated" weight, which would be in the 2600-2700 lb range.

The other issue, is that the dry weight of most TTs is NOT the weight you're going to be towing at, especially if you're boondocking. It's probably going to be much closer to the GVWR of the TT than most people are willing to admit. In the case of our RP179, the dry weight is 2860, which is more (to begin with) than I would be comfortable pulling with a vehicle in the "3500 lb tow capacity". Add the fru-fru that most people are probably going to bring along, and you will most likely see yourself exceeding even the 3500 lb rating.

I never stated there was a hard line. I'm using a rule of thumb, and everyone has a different line. If your line is at 100% of rated capacity, go for it, and good luck.

Thankfully, most civil engineers design bridges with significantly more capacity than they anticipate the bridge will be subjected to.

I think what MarkW is saying is that it's a continuum from definitely no problem to definitely a problem.

At 20% of "capacity" most of us feel pretty good.  At 120% of capacity, most of us don't feel good.  In between, we have various levels of comfort.  

The capacity number is not a black-and-white threshold, but the higher the percentage of capacity we're using up, the more likely there will be problems - from minor to catastrophic - and less room for error or ability to recover from "accidents."

The problem with getting too close to the limit is that many people often over estimate their driving skills and the condition of their rigs, thus leading to an unintended outcome.  If these choices were made in a vacuum and only the person choosing to take the risk was affected, it wouldn't be such a problem.  But rarely do bad decisions leading to an "accident" affect only the decision taker.  S/he often has family that is affected, not to mention unrelated people sharing the road or otherwise obliged to bear the cost.  Or, stated more bluntly, don't think just of your self when you engage in risky behavior because you may end up hurting someone else.

I frequent that forum and I don't think that for the most part those folks are quite as pedantic as you suggest (plenty of times they say a 1/2 ton is fine for a relatively short, light trailer).  They do respond bluntly, however, when folks say that they're going to tow their 45-foot 5th wheel with a Tacoma.

Kind of like here...

http://www.kenworth.com/media/v3mndduq/kenworth_w900_brochure.pdf - https://www.kenworth.com/media/v3mndduq/kenworth_w900_brochure.pdf

'Buy a F250 at the minimum ( Dodge or Chevy 2500 ) and then go get a trailer. DO NOT put your family or anyone elses at risk with too little tow vehicle. Look through this forum and you will find the same question over and over about a tow vehicle. Always the same answer."

Good engineering practice is to build into any structure a safety margin above the anticipated use to reduce the probability of failure.  When people tow weights at or near the absolute capacity of their TV, they have no margin of safety.  The will experience premature failures, whether it's the in the drivetrain or in control of the rig.  Something will inevitably and prematurely go wrong.  The greater the percentage of over capacity in the TV, the lower the lower the probability of failure will be.  

Yes, one can tow 3500 pound travel trailer with a TV having a 3500 lb. towing limit, but it is certain that something will sooner than later break resulting in costly repairs.  More importantly, there is the issue of vehicle control and the risk of an accident.  Driving on a flat road at low speeds may be relatively safe.  On the other hand, trying to navigate a curvy mountain road with steep ascents and descents or high speed freeway conditions, the risk of an accident is high.  As I said before, if only the driver and his/her vehicle was involved, it would be simply a matter of personal choice.  But when it puts others at risk of harm, then one should be more cautious in testing the limits of one's TV.

If you take what I said too literally, using "absolute" capacity, then it would be more analogous to the median failure point as being the "absolute" capacity.  When you reach that point, things start to break.  If a bolt has a tensile failure point of 2000 pounds, typically you do not see it used in applications where it would be subjected to 2000 pounds under normal working loads.  The working load would be a percentage of the failure point.  Our engineers can discuss this safety margin far better than I, but from a lay point of view, it is safe to say that sh*** begins to happen when you exceed the working load limit. Certainly, the TV manufactures' engineers are not recommending working loads that are equal to the failure point, but we don't know how wide the margin is and when it comes to safety, it's better to err on the side of being a little overly cautious.  

Human nature is such that people make all kinds of excuses why the rules of Nature don't apply to them.  Whether it's denying the existence of contagious pathogens or the laws of physics, when you test Mother Nature, she gets the last laugh.

You logic seems to be that if you don't know all the variables, then it's just fine to push the manufacturer's limits.  No, you don't know all the data, but more than likely the things you don't know are not things that will enhance safety.  Many people who drive trailers with marginal TV's are not always the best drivers and don't realize the limits of their skills or their vehicle.  Driver fatigue, wear and tear on the hitch and chasis, poorly balanced loads, poor brakes, bad electrical connections in the brake system, etc. etc. etc. are all things that can justify erring on the side of caution.

We don't have all the real world data, but we do have some pretty smart engineers on this board who have wisely cautioned us, based on their engineering experience, that it is good idea have an adequate margin of safety.  It's is unfortunate that NTSB doesn't offer a database that specifically addresses travel trailer towing accidents, but that does not mean we can use math and science to calculate the risks of towing.

I didn't say that if you don't know all the variables then it's ok to push the manufacturers' limits.  I said just the opposite.  There are many variables that we don't know that make it judicious to take the limits of the manufacturer seriously and not push them.  I suggested that many of those variables reduce the safe load capacity and that one should, as the engineers on this board have suggested, try to have a margin of safety below the manufacturers' limits.  

Your suggestion that the logical conclusion of my statements is that manufacturers are hiding the true load capacity and that it is really much lower, couldn't be more wrong.  Again, you are engaging in sophistry by misstating what I said.  I take the manufacturers' load limits seriously and unlike some, believe that they (and the government regulators and even lawyers), have my best interests in mind, though it may not be for the altruistic motivations I'd like.  My point is that we should accept those load limits and add to the margin of safety other considerations that effectively reduce load limits such as a driver's skill, reaction time, experience and so on, not to mention the condition of the vehicle, road conditions, etc., all of which mitigate in favor of a wider margin of safety.

OG and GlueGuy have both stated that we should have a wider margin of safety than less.  OG has been nice enough to have given us the math that supports his advice.  Both are engineers and I, as a lay person, am going to take their advice seriously and keep my towing loads below what Ford tells me is the limit.  

Agreed -- for insurance / liability reasons if no other.

Weighing as suggested and plugging the data into the calculator that OG has often linked is a good way to know how you stand weight wise.  

Hit the scales dude! You'll be happy in the long run for the effort. Check with your town, you may be able to get weighed for free. 

https://rv.org/blogs/news/short-wheelbases-and-accidents-go-hand-in-hand

Interesting article.  I've never seen the "back-of-ball ratio" discussed before.  I believe that's the ratio of hitch ball-to-trailer axle/hitch ball-to-rear bumper.  50% = marginal-to-bad whereas 75% = good-great.

Not sure how that's measured on dual-axle trailers...maybe halfway between the axles?

High BOB potentially equates to higher tongue weights as well, so that would also contribute to more stability.

Here is another trailer weight calculator that may be of use:

http://www.engineersedge.com/calculators/trailer-weight-balance.htm - https://www.engineersedge.com/calculators/trailer-weight-balance.htm

https://www.tiktok.com/@lapipadelapaz/video/6914467092867730694 - https://www.tiktok.com/@lapipadelapaz/video/6914467092867730694

That happens to be one the calculators used for axle placement in the builder's forum.It'sused quite a bit!

But, the all time overloads are in the coffee country of Colombia where the ubiquitous Willys is the ultimate pack mule.   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKf2GlFnwfI - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKf2GlFnwfI   In fact, when I lived in Colombia, I lost a friend who was taking is coffee down from the mountain to sell and went off a cliff from being overloaded.

First you say "to make sure that your weights are within specs", yet then "I think it's a mistake to think that if you have sufficient 'reserve capacity' ".

Dude your going both ways here.. You're either with factory spec's or your not. The mistake is believing you can go beyond 'comfortably'. There's a reason for those 'spec's'! 

Take the time and hit the scales. My town on Saturdays has no issues at all. Free if they don't print a ticket. They had fun with me and what I was doing! I know what my dry weight is of trailer alone (not stated, actual) telling me how much I can load. I know what the trailer hitched is and combined weight. No guessing, no "it works for me", no BS, actual weights.

It's worth the time..