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P-pod for dry camping? |
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MarkW 
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Joined: 25 Jan 2021 Location: Michigan Online Status: Offline Posts: 54 |
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 Topic: P-pod for dry camping?Posted: 01 Apr 2021 at 12:30pm |
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Bottom line is that you have a marginal TV for that trailer
Yeah, I really don't see it that way. Besides the manufacturers rating, the TV weight, power, GVWR, and wheelbase all matter. And the TV in this case is probably as high on those factors as anything you could buy with a 3500# rating (120" wheelbase, 4460# curb weight, 6000# GVWR, 296HP). I might worry about towing it with a Ford Escape or RAV4 with a 3500# limit (yes, they do exist), but those are much less substantial vehicles.
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offgrid
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Joined: 23 Jul 2018 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5290 |
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Posted: 01 Apr 2021 at 3:40pm |
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Yep I'm sure you're right, your vehicle is probably as good as you can get with any 3500 lb TV. But if you didn't think 3500 was getting marginal you probably wouldn't be working hard at bringing your trailer weight down, which I was commending you for doing. I wasn't trying to start an argument.
I personally wouldn't tow any but the possibly the smallest rpod with any 3500 lb rated TV, I like a good margin between the manufacturers specs and my actual weights. I don't know enough about why the manufacturer rates them as they do to try to second guess them or know how agressive or conservative they have been in their specs. They certainly don't sell more vehicles by giving them a lower tow rating than they need to, so I'm sure the engineers are under pressure to set things higher rather than lower. As I said, it's entirely up to you what you do as long as you're legal and comfortable, no arguement here. All I'm suggesting is that you get your actual weights to be sure you're in spec and have a good tongue to trailer weight percentage for stability. |
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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
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podwerkz
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Joined: 11 Mar 2019 Location: Texas Online Status: Offline Posts: 966 |
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Posted: 01 Apr 2021 at 5:30pm |
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A few months back a friend (actual friend, not an online friend) was asking me about a new travel trailer he was about to buy to haul with his half-ton pickup...This trailer (not an r-pod) was right at the top of the weight range for the pickup. I advised him to look for a smaller trailer, or else deal with the 'tail wagging the dog syndrome'...He shrugged at me and and said yeah, ok, whatever..
A few days ago I got a text from him that this oversized (but still within the mfg tow ratings) trailer was swaying in the wind from every passing truck, and yes, he has wdh and sway control... and should he be buying a 3/4 ton truck? Yikes! He said he could hear me saying 'I told you so'...reason he waited before telling me...and I never said that, cuz I didnt even know he went and bought the trailer and hit the road with it. It's just that a good sized travel trailer will cause a 'wagging the dog effect' if the tow vehicle is simply 'outgunned' by the trailer. 'Towing authority' is what you want, and pushing the weight ratings of the trailer right up to the last digit allowable, is not how you achieve that. Good luck.
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r･pod 171 gone but not forgotten!
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MarkW
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Joined: 25 Jan 2021 Location: Michigan Online Status: Offline Posts: 54 |
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Posted: 02 Apr 2021 at 8:26am |
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I'm quite confident that U.S. auto manufacturers don't overestimate towing capabilities and that RV manufacturers don't underestimate dry weights -- if for no reason other than the U.S. has an enormous army of trial attorneys who would love nothing better than to bring class-action suits against big corporations like auto and RV manufacturers. Have you ever seen the European tow ratings, BTW? Because of $8 gas, pickups and huge SUVs are rare, and people tow large 'caravans' with ordinary passenger cars. Here, for example, are the UK tow ratings for a VW Passat: 2200KG is....4850 LBS! For a midsize sedan. So no, I'm not worried about being near my much longer, heavier, more powerful van's towing limit at 1350# less than a Passat. But for insurance/liability reasons, I don't want to go over the 3500# rating (and I want to keep it on the lighter side until we've had more experience towing the RV and gotten things dialed in with the TV and trailer loading and tongue weight, etc). Which isn't to say that you can't have problems with trailers within the limits. Not every vehicle rated for, say, 5000# can tow every trailer under 5000#. Often wheelbase is a culprit: The biggest factor to consider when towing a long trailer with a short wheel base tow vehicle is trailer sway. There is no standard ratio for wheelbase to trailer length, but the general rule is a longer trailer and a shorter wheelbase will increase the severity of trailer sway. https://www.etrailer.com/question-301694.html |
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podwerkz
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Joined: 11 Mar 2019 Location: Texas Online Status: Offline Posts: 966 |
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Posted: 02 Apr 2021 at 9:13am |
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Yes, you're right Mark, the manufacturers, the government, and the lawyers all have your best interests in mind. Carry on.
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r･pod 171 gone but not forgotten!
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Pod_Geek
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Joined: 04 Dec 2019 Location: Colorado Online Status: Offline Posts: 260 |
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Posted: 02 Apr 2021 at 10:41am |
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2020.5 R-Pod 195 Hood River
2018 RAM 2500 6.4L |
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offgrid
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Joined: 23 Jul 2018 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5290 |
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Posted: 02 Apr 2021 at 12:20pm |
+2 I'm well aware of the European towing differences. In fact, I have a European horse trailer because it is so much better balanced and easier to tow than the US ones. Europe has very different driving conditions than the US, shorter distances, better roads, more benign weather, no huge trucks blowing past you on the interstate at 80 mph. In any case, it doesn't matter what they do in Europe. All kinds of standards and regs are different there. The US specs and regs are what they are. The towing standards assume an unloaded tow vehicle, obviously you can't put a full payload in the TV and simultaneously tow the max trailer. In reality, we all have load in our TVs, which reinforces the advisability of getting actual weights and checking against axle, hitch, trailer, and the MCGVW ratings. If you're towing an rpod with an F250 then don't bother, but with a 3500 or 5000 lb rated TV it's very easy to be close or over the limits. As for FR's numbers, they do a better job now than on my 2015 (the 179 empty weight has gone up about 130 lbs for the same trailer), but that is still under what mine weighs. What is included in empty weight and what's not changes over time. Trailer manufacturers want to sell trailers so like all manufacturers they take advantage of opportunities to make their specs look better. Lighter looks better. There are all sorts of ways to do that, it's called specsmanship, and it is entirely legal as long as it's properly documented. Caveat Emptor. Not sure what this debate is about at this point. Either go weigh your rig or don't. Tow with what you want. These are entirely your decisions to make. Either way don't expect everyone here to agree with you, it's a forum after all. |
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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
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GlueGuy
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Joined: 15 May 2017 Location: N. California Online Status: Offline Posts: 2630 |
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Posted: 03 Apr 2021 at 12:35pm |
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I don't think the issue is with vehicle manufacturers over-stating the vehicle capabilities, although there is a bit of that. Anyone who thinks our F150 can tow the stated 11,700 lbs should look at the real issues (like GVWR). It is probably more in the 9,000-9,500 lb trailer zone if that is adhered to.
There are two things to keep in mind though. One is the amount of margin you have. For example, if the vehicle is rated at 3500 lbs, how much of that do you consider safe for a cross-country trip? I would argue that you don't want to go over ~~ 75% of the total "rated" weight, which would be in the 2600-2700 lb range. The other issue, is that the dry weight of most TTs is NOT the weight you're going to be towing at, especially if you're boondocking. It's probably going to be much closer to the GVWR of the TT than most people are willing to admit. In the case of our RP179, the dry weight is 2860, which is more (to begin with) than I would be comfortable pulling with a vehicle in the "3500 lb tow capacity". Add the fru-fru that most people are probably going to bring along, and you will most likely see yourself exceeding even the 3500 lb rating. |
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bp
2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River 2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost |
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MarkW
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Joined: 25 Jan 2021 Location: Michigan Online Status: Offline Posts: 54 |
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Posted: 05 Apr 2021 at 8:20am |
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Yes, you're right Mark, the manufacturers, the government, and the lawyers all have your best interests in mind.
I'm not counting on that -- I'm counting on the manufacturers having their own best interests in mind which very much includes not paying out huge legal settlements for printing obviously false information about the weights and capacities of their products. Europe has very different driving conditions than the US, shorter distances, better roads, more benign weather Meh. I've driven a lot in Europe in multiple countries. The autoroutes are more like U.S. expressways than not (enough that it's pretty easy to forget where you are). It's true that the trucks mostly take secondary roads (which presents its own problems), but they certainly have plenty of steep grades to handle. The most important difference is speed limits -- in most EU countries and the UK, caravan speed limits are lower than in the U.S. (despite non-towing limits being higher). But physics is still physics on both sides of the Atlantic. |
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MarkW
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Joined: 25 Jan 2021 Location: Michigan Online Status: Offline Posts: 54 |
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Posted: 05 Apr 2021 at 10:23am |
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One is the amount of margin you have. For example, if the vehicle is rated at 3500 lbs, how much of that do you consider safe for a cross-country trip? I would argue that you don't want to go over ~~ 75% of the total "rated" weight
There's no hard line for safety with 'safe' on one side and 'unsafe' on the other. If you truly care about maximum safety going across the country, you shouldn't drive at all, you should fly (commercial aviation is about 750 -- yes 750! -- times safer per passenger mile than driving). And if you are driving, you shouldn't tow a trailer at all (since obviously that reduces safety). You probably also shouldn't be driving a pickup, since they're less safe (more likely to be involved in a fatal rollover accident), and you should probably also not be driving an older vehicle (since newer vehicles have much improved safety -- except for pickups, which still get poor crash ratings). I know of no data, however, that says 75% of the manufacturer tow rating is any kind of safety 'sweet spot' with safety levels falling off quickly from there. |
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