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offgrid View Drop Down
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Posts: 5290 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: Propane Tank Issue
    Posted: 28 Sep 2020 at 5:15am
I've had gps loss of signal many many times. You have to have good signals from a minimum of 4 satellites for it to work. If you are in a tunnel, canyon, or urban building canyon that is frequently not the case. If the Hayes device depended on gps to work I doubt they could sell it, the liability risk would be extremely high. Probably the software defaults to assume the speed is >45 when there is no gps speed, allowing the system to operate when gps is not available. That might be a bit annoying if it didn't distinguish sway from turns but it would it would be safer.

Technically a moving body can have 6 degrees of freedom (pitch, roll, yaw, surge, heave, and sway). StephenH already described pitch, roll, and yaw.  Surge, heave, and sway are accelerations fore/aft, up/down, and side to side.

But I think what we call trailer sway is really yaw, at least initially, by the time it becomes actual significant side to side movement its probably getting to be too late to correct safely. So, after my previous comment on the Tucson device I rethought it and I think it probably uses a MEMS gyro to directly measure yaw. The Lippert device looks like it measures both yaw with a gyro and sway with an accelerometer.

To be clear, none of these will have old school rotating gyros, the MEMS devices are micro-electromechanical systems that use vibrating structures fabricated like IC's instead of rotating parts. Sensors measure the forces produced when the orientation of the vibrating structures changes. Cheap, small, and reliable. 

Since the motion of a swaying trailer is quite different from a turning rig I don't think should be necessary to use gps to distinguish the two.   After all, your butt certainly doesn't need to know how fast you are going to differentiate sway from turns.  And it looks like 2 of the 3 vendors take that approach.  For one thing the frequency of the trailer in sway is much higher than when turning. Unless maybe you are running a gymkhana in your rig LOL.  
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Posts: 6289 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 2020 at 7:29pm
I mounted mine up higher because I have a Stromberg-Carlsen Trailer Tray that blocks a good part of the sky above the Hayes unit if mounted on the A frame, so I mounted it on the Trailer Tray instead so it would have a clearer view of the sky. I think it would be like a navigation GPS. There are enough satellites that it might lose sight of some, but then gain sight of others. So far, it has not been a problem.
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pedwards2932 View Drop Down
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Posts: 338 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 2020 at 6:56pm
Found this:
To help narrow down the decision much quicker the Lippert has restrictions on its use so we can cut that one out of the running (it is only compatible with up to 2 axles and won't work with 2014 or newer GM trucks and SUVs equipped with an integrated trailer brake control module).

Seems like the Hayes is easier to set up.....and as you indicated it only works after 45 mph....what happens if it loses GPS signal?










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Posts: 6289 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 2020 at 6:11pm
Originally posted by pedwards2932

That sway control looks great.......I'd have to move the terminal board to make room for it.  The Hayes looks to be about $370 from the manufactorer. It uses GPS and gyro.  Lippert about same price uses accelerometer and gyro.  Tuscon is $550 somehow monitors yaw?  I would worry a little about using GPS if you lost signal?  It will definitely be my next purchase.  Thanks.
The GPS is for speed detection. The gyro is for the sway control. The Hayes needs to know how fast you are going so it does not apply the brakes in a situation where it would be counterproductive, such as low speed turns. It fully activates at 45 mph. I'm not sure how the other two handle it. I don't think a simple accelerometer would detect vehicle speed. It would detect rate of yaw, but the gyro would likely also be able to handle that.
Pitch: front to back tilting movement.
Yaw: side to side movement.
Roll: Just like it sounds rotational movement in line with the trailer.
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offgrid View Drop Down
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Posts: 5290 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 2020 at 2:45pm
I tend to agree about the gps LOS issue. The Tucson does look interesting, I hadn't looked at it before. 

I think it can probably do what it needs to with just an accelerometer. Its mounted on the front crossmember so in a sway event it measures lateral acceleration of that point relative to the axle. Displacement in mathematical terms is just the second integral of acceleration, so from the acceleration it can know how far the sensor has been displaced side to side. If it knew how far the unit was from the axle it would be able to easily calculate the yaw angle, but I don't see where it is ever actually programmed for that distance so it probably doesn't know the actual angle,. But it probably doesn't need to, it can learn what is normal yaw while turning and distinguish oscillations in yaw due to sway from that.

 Interesting device, but boy is it pricey. 
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pedwards2932 View Drop Down
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Posts: 338 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 2020 at 1:42pm
That sway control looks great.......I'd have to move the terminal board to make room for it.  The Hayes looks to be about $370 from the manufactorer. It uses GPS and gyro.  Lippert about same price uses accelerometer and gyro.  Tuscon is $550 somehow monitors yaw?  I would worry a little about using GPS if you lost signal?  It will definitely be my next purchase.  Thanks.
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Posts: 6289 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 2020 at 12:41pm
Originally posted by pedwards2932

From Ford:  Model (Option Code) (536)(1) Trailer Wiring Harness (4-Pin) X Hitch Receiver X Trailer Sway Control X (1) Available with 2.0L EcoBoost® I4 only. Available as dealer accessory with 2.5L I4 engine and 1.5L EcoBoost® I4 engine (I have the 2.0L w Ecoboost)
I think the Sway Control is varies to power to each wheel to control sway with brakes.
I had the brake controller professionally installed as running the wires on the car would be a total pain without a lift.
I was in the foothills of Penn and VA as I didn't want to take I95 around DC so it was hilly but no wind. The Aeroplus looks interesting.  I don't have racks on my Escape so I guess I'd have to add them as well.
Thank you. I am glad you do have the brake controller. A WD hitch, preferably with sway control built in such as the Equal-i-zer, the Fastway E2, or the Andersen No-Sway hitch would improve your ride quality and would make sure you have sufficient weight on the front end for steering and traction since it sounds like you have the FWD Escape like I did. Even with the Equal-i-zer well adjusted, I could still spin the tires easily if I gave it too much gas when taking off from a standstill. I avoided dirt roads because I did not want to be in a situation where I had to stop on a hill and would not be able to get going again.

An alternative to a WDH with sway control is electronic sway control such as that from Tuson, Hayes, or Lippert. I have the Hayes Sway-Master which I added after our accident. I never wanted to be in the situation where applying the trailer brakes (which the Escape won't do since the factory sway control only controls the vehicle wheels) would have helped bring the trailer back in line. In the midst of an incident, there is not always time to think about reaching for the manual control. The Hayes Sway-Master applies the trailer brakes if it detects a sway situation.
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Posts: 966 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 2020 at 12:07pm
I keep a single 30pounder on the trailer and a spare (exchangeable) 20 pounder in the pickup bed. Works well for me. Of course I can reverse that when the 30 pounder runs low. 
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Posts: 338 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 2020 at 10:26am
Now to my original issue.  I think the 1 #30 Propane is more than enough for me.  I think I can make an adapter to use the single tank.  I could cap off the unused line on the regulator or just get a single regulator?  I can't seem to find any decent looking single tank mounts?
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Posts: 338 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 2020 at 10:20am
Being retired I am neither in a hurry or time restricted so I feel uncomfortable I am pulling off and waiting.  When I checked on trading in and getting an Explorer with 5000 tw it was going to cost 10,000 plus the worse mileage I would have when not towing.  I had absolutely no sway pulling it from Penn but there was no wind and I drove between 55 and 60.  It is only me, wife, and dog.....trailer isn't big enough for anymore.  Never intend to carry water and closest I will come to boondocking is sleeping overnite while on the road.  If these conditions change or I feel uncomfortable with weights I will look into another TV.
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