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Propane Tank Issue

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Forum Name: I need HELP!!!
Forum Discription: Perplexed/need help with a problem - ask here
URL: http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=14053
Printed Date: 21 May 2024 at 8:30am
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Topic: Propane Tank Issue
Posted By: pedwards2932
Subject: Propane Tank Issue
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2020 at 2:30pm
Just got a RP189. The original owner was using it to live in for extended periods so it has 2 - #30 tanks in the front so it added a lot to tongue weight ~400.  I don't think I need that much propane/weight.  I could cut it back to 2 - #20 tanks they weigh ~38lbs each filled.  The 30s are 54lbs each filled.  I would have to get a new shorter threaded rod. So that is about 32lbs off the tongue.  I could go with one 30 but I have a bracket set up for 2.  Is there a way to set up the mount to hold just one tank?  



Replies:
Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2020 at 4:15pm
You could remove the double mount and install a single tank mount. However, your tongue weight of 400# is not excessive. The weight on the tongue should be 10-15% of the loaded trailer's weight. Let's say the trailer weighs 3000# loaded. That means between 300 and 450 is okay for tongue weight. Now, if your tow vehicle has a lower limitation, that could be an issue. Since you did not say what tow vehicle you have and the tow capacity, it would only be guessing for me to say whether you are okay or not.

-------------
StephenH
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,...

http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods
Former RPod 179
Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS


Posted By: pedwards2932
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2020 at 5:01pm
It is the TV capacity that I am considering.  I have a 2017 Ford Escape with the 2.0 litre 245hp Eco Boost.  It has the factory tow package with translmission cooler and anti sway.  Since it is a class 2 hitch I believe the tongue weight max is 300.  And I know this is a marginal TV but the measured weight on the trailer is 3071 and I don't plan on carrying water and will pack lite.  I brought it back from Pennsylvania to Virginia and the car was able to pull it easily at 55 to 60 which I don't intend to go over.  I got 16 mpg.  I just don't think I need that much propane or weight as the tongue weight concerns me.  I assume the r-pod came originally with a single tank mount but I haven't seen any of the single mounts online.


Posted By: Dirt Sifter
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2020 at 5:27pm
Most RPods did come with a single tank. Sounds like you are knowledgeable enough to have looked, but is it possible the double mount is bolted over the single tank holder. The single base on both of mine sat below the top level of the A frame between the arms so I'm thinking the double would have to sit above it, across the top of the frame. Seems to me I thought about adding a second tank at one point, but didn't want to lose the turning capability and could put the second tank in the bed of the pickup if needed. Safe travels! :-)


-------------
Greg n Deb 2020 195 HRE
'07 Tundra 5.7L., '17 Tacoma 3.5L. Both with tow packages
1 Puggle, 1 Chihuahua support staff


Posted By: pedwards2932
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2020 at 5:34pm
I thought about putting one tank secured in the rear of the trailer while towing and then installing when I got to campgound.  This would remove 54 lbs from front and add 54 to rear which would get me to 300.  Just not sure how safe it is to carry the tank in the trailer.  I have a spare tire bracket in the rear of trailer not sure if I could make some set up to carry spare tank there.


Posted By: pedwards2932
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2020 at 5:35pm
I will look at it tomorrow to see if the old mount is under the the new one.  Thanks.


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2020 at 6:59pm
When you say the measured weight of the 189 is 3071, how was it measured and under what loading conditions? The listed unloaded weight or the 189 is 3075. Its hard to imagine that an actual real world trailer loaded for travel with water, batteries etc would only weigh 3071.

You do not want to be at 300 lbs tongue weight on even a 3071 lb trailer, and its worst if it weighs more. Anything near or under 10% tongue weight is susceptible to sway. It it was me I'd rather be at 400 lbs and overweight on the tongue than risk creating a sway situation. 

The highest tow rating I see for the Escape is 3500 lbs. That is just plain too low for that trailer. Tow ratings assume there are no passengers or cargo in the tow vehicle, which is of course not the case. Instead of trying to get the tongue weight down on your trailer and risking sway, get a tow vehicle with adequate capacity to tow the trailer and a reasonable amount of gear both in the trailer and TV. You do not have that with the rig you have right now. 


-------------
1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: pedwards2932
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2020 at 7:12pm


Posted By: pedwards2932
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2020 at 7:15pm
I had it weighed and the factory weighed it before delivery.  I intend to make sure I am within specs loaded. The specs listed are:

Dry Weight

2,773 lbs.

Payload Capacity

989 lbs.

Hitch Weight

281 lbs.



Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2020 at 7:19pm
The dry weight is meaningless. If you haven't weighed it loaded (batteries, water, options, gear, food, tools, clothing, etc etc) then do that before you do anything else. I think you will be surprised, I was. 

-------------
1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: pedwards2932
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2020 at 7:28pm
I absolutely intend to make sure all is okay.  When it was weighed it was 3071 and I don't intend to carry water.  I tried to leave my TV out of the discussion as I was only interested in changing the propane tanks.   The TV has plenty of HP to pull as I have done it, issue for me is a class 2 hitch.  


Posted By: Dirt Sifter
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2020 at 7:37pm
Originally posted by offgrid

The dry weight is meaningless. If you haven't weighed it loaded (batteries, water, options, gear, food, tools, clothing, etc etc) then do that before you do anything else. I think you will be surprised, I was. 

I respect your ObieWan position here, but the OP already said he would not be packing water, would be loading light.  Has towed the trailer some distance and is content with the performance.



-------------
Greg n Deb 2020 195 HRE
'07 Tundra 5.7L., '17 Tacoma 3.5L. Both with tow packages
1 Puggle, 1 Chihuahua support staff


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2020 at 7:58pm
Originally posted by Dirt Sifter


I respect your ObieWan position here, but the OP already said he would not be packing water, would be loading light.  Has towed the trailer some distance and is content with the performance.


Not being a big Star Wars fan, I have no idea what an "Obi-Wan position" might be, so I will take at face value that it is not meant as an insult of some kind. 

This is not a performance issue, its a safety issue. When you start considering moving weight to the rear of a trailer to get the tongue weight down and that results in a tongue weight at or below 10%, then warning bells should be starting to ring. 

My suggestion was that pedwards weigh the trailer fully loaded with whatever he plans to actually carry, and to also consider the weight that will be in the tow vehicle. If he is satisfied that that is within the specs of his TV and he's comfortable with that then that's fine. 


-------------
1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2020 at 8:31pm
Obi-Wan was the mentor to Luke Skywalker, teaching him the ways of the Force. It was a compliment.

Okay. the TV is a factor now. What is it if the concern is a class 2 hitch? What is the tow capacity? A class 2 hitch is a 1-1/4" hitch rated up to 3,500 lbs. Now if it is a 2" hitch, then it might be a class 3 hitch.

https://www.curtmfg.com/types-trailer-hitches - https://www.curtmfg.com/types-trailer-hitches

I would be leery of hitching up an RPod if it really is a Class 2 hitch.


-------------
StephenH
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,...

http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods
Former RPod 179
Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS


Posted By: pedwards2932
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2020 at 8:48pm
It has a 2" reciever.......so it is a class 3?....sorry.  The rated tow for vehicle is 3500.  It is a factory tow package with transmission cooler and anti sway.  


Posted By: pedwards2932
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2020 at 9:03pm
It definitely is listed as a Class II with a tow rating of 3500.  The reciever is a 2".


Posted By: pedwards2932
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2020 at 9:32pm
Checked in Ford Escape Manual on towing and it can handle 350 lb tongue weight.   I can balance it to get that just by getting rid of one of the #30 tanks.


Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2020 at 10:09pm
Okay. I towed our 179 with a 2016 Ford Escape SE until we hit ice with a crosswind. Now I tow with a 2010 Nissan Frontier LE 4x4. I did use an Equal-i-zer hitch with it. While it can be done, the vehicle is marginal for the task. Don't exceed 60 mph if you don't want to stop every 100 miles for premium gasoline. If you have a stiff headwind, it is like towing faster, and your mileage will drop. I used a Purpleline AeroPlus wind deflector with the Escape. It worked well, and it did help with the mileage. It doesn't help with the Frontier though as it sits too far ahead of the trailer to do any good. You can see it if you look at my early mods pictures.

Since I have no idea where you live, I don't know if you would be close enough that it would be practical for you to get the AeroPlus that I have. I was going to take it to the FROG rally this past summer, but that got cancelled. Ultimately, you do need a tow vehicle with both a higher tow rating and a proper Class 3 hitch and a larger gas tank. Did your Escape come with the factory tow package? The 3,500 lb rating is for that. If it is an aftermarket hitch, then it does not have the 3,500 lb rating. It would also lack the transmission cooler which is very important, especially if you have to climb some long mountain slopes.


-------------
StephenH
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,...

http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods
Former RPod 179
Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS


Posted By: pedwards2932
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2020 at 11:04pm
It is the factory tow package hitch with anti-sway and transmission cooler.  I never go over 60 towing especially with a single axle....I have been pulling trailers for 50 years.  My main concern with this was getting the tongue weight into specs.  I will make sure the trailer weight works as well.  I was burning premium but I was getting 16mpg so it wasn't so bad and it towed nicely.


Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2020 at 11:36pm
Okay. You must have been on flat land and had a tailwind. The best I ever got was about 16 mpg. With a headwind, it was more like 12-13 mpg. As for anti-sway, are you talking vehicle stability control or an actual brake controller for the trailer brakes? Unless Ford has changed things dramatically, the Escape did not come with a brake controller. I had to run the wiring myself for the one I installed. It wasn't fun. If you don't have a brake controller, you need one before you tow again to be legal. As for anti-sway, the Escape I had did have stability control, but not trailer anti-sway. If it has it, it still only controls the vehicle's brakes, not the trailer brakes. The last thing you need is to be passed by the back end of your trailer while you are trying to slow down. I've been there and it isn't pleasant. (see http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=9133&PID=86002&title=i-wrecked-our-escapod#86002 ).

I was always impressed with the power of the 2L Ecoboost engine. I am sure the newer ones have more improvements. That probably explains the 16 mpg. It wasn't until I installed the Purpleline AeroPlus on ours before I saw 16 mpg while towing, and that was only if we did not have a headwind.


-------------
StephenH
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,...

http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods
Former RPod 179
Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS


Posted By: pedwards2932
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2020 at 6:48am
From Ford:  Model (Option Code) (536)(1) Trailer Wiring Harness (4-Pin) X Hitch Receiver X Trailer Sway Control X (1) Available with 2.0L EcoBoost® I4 only. Available as dealer accessory with 2.5L I4 engine and 1.5L EcoBoost® I4 engine (I have the 2.0L w Ecoboost)
I think the Sway Control is varies to power to each wheel to control sway with brakes.
I had the brake controller professionally installed as running the wires on the car would be a total pain without a lift.
I was in the foothills of Penn and VA as I didn't want to take I95 around DC so it was hilly but no wind. The Aeroplus looks interesting.  I don't have racks on my Escape so I guess I'd have to add them as well.


Posted By: pedwards2932
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2020 at 7:05am
I thank you for your input on the Escape as you have real world experience.  It sounds like the conditions you were towing in with your Escape would have been a challenge with any TV.  I guess what a lot of folks don't take into account is looking into another TV was going to cost me about $10,000 and then I would have a vehicle that would get significantly worse mileage when not trailering.  I get about 27 mpg on highway and 21-22 around town.  Would a WDH provide any measure of stability assist?


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2020 at 9:24am
Originally posted by pedwards2932

I thank you for your input on the Escape as you have real world experience.  It sounds like the conditions you were towing in with your Escape would have been a challenge with any TV.  I guess what a lot of folks don't take into account is looking into another TV was going to cost me about $10,000 and then I would have a vehicle that would get significantly worse mileage when not trailering.  I get about 27 mpg on highway and 21-22 around town.  Would a WDH provide any measure of stability assist?

There are certainly conditions that would challenge any rig, but the more marginal the setup the more likely that is to occur. In many cases we can avoid those situations by choosing to wait until conditions improve, but often surprises happen. 

The other consideration with a marginal rig is lack of flexibility in the form or reserve capacity if the mission changes and say one wants to do a little boon docking or carry a couple extra passengers. 

I too have towed for many years and originally thought that I might tow an rPod with a 3500 lb rated vehicle. I would have been overweight. Being a Toyota guy, I was looking at a Rav4 and got the Highlander instead.  Cost is certainly an major consideration for me and most of us on this forum. If it wasn't we would probably be driving around in much more elaborate dedicated RV's. I couldn't handle a $10K cost difference either, so I buy used vehicles so the cost difference is not much. The Highlander gets a couple less highway mpg than the Rav with the same drive train not towing, there's wouldn't be any measurable difference towing because towing fuel consumption is dominated by the trailer air friction.

For sure a wdh will help improve rig stability, including sway stability. When you hang a trailer on the back of a TV it unloads the front axle. That is especially true for a compact vehicle with a short wheelbase.  Resistance to sliding is proportional to weight and the front axle is your steering control and has the best brakes on the rig, so taking load off it reduces its ability to control the rig. The wdh puts the weight back where its supposed to be. The problem with a wdh is that that load redistribution is not constant, it depends on the road being flat. If you say drive over a high spot the wdh loses tension and load shifts back to the rear TV axle from the front. That's why wdh's generally don't increase tow capacity. But they do help ride, handling, and braking.  




-------------
1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: pedwards2932
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2020 at 10:20am
Being retired I am neither in a hurry or time restricted so I feel uncomfortable I am pulling off and waiting.  When I checked on trading in and getting an Explorer with 5000 tw it was going to cost 10,000 plus the worse mileage I would have when not towing.  I had absolutely no sway pulling it from Penn but there was no wind and I drove between 55 and 60.  It is only me, wife, and dog.....trailer isn't big enough for anymore.  Never intend to carry water and closest I will come to boondocking is sleeping overnite while on the road.  If these conditions change or I feel uncomfortable with weights I will look into another TV.


Posted By: pedwards2932
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2020 at 10:26am
Now to my original issue.  I think the 1 #30 Propane is more than enough for me.  I think I can make an adapter to use the single tank.  I could cap off the unused line on the regulator or just get a single regulator?  I can't seem to find any decent looking single tank mounts?


Posted By: podwerkz
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2020 at 12:07pm
I keep a single 30pounder on the trailer and a spare (exchangeable) 20 pounder in the pickup bed. Works well for me. Of course I can reverse that when the 30 pounder runs low. 

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r・pod 171 gone but not forgotten!


Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2020 at 12:41pm
Originally posted by pedwards2932

From Ford:  Model (Option Code) (536)(1) Trailer Wiring Harness (4-Pin) X Hitch Receiver X Trailer Sway Control X (1) Available with 2.0L EcoBoost® I4 only. Available as dealer accessory with 2.5L I4 engine and 1.5L EcoBoost® I4 engine (I have the 2.0L w Ecoboost)
I think the Sway Control is varies to power to each wheel to control sway with brakes.
I had the brake controller professionally installed as running the wires on the car would be a total pain without a lift.
I was in the foothills of Penn and VA as I didn't want to take I95 around DC so it was hilly but no wind. The Aeroplus looks interesting.  I don't have racks on my Escape so I guess I'd have to add them as well.
Thank you. I am glad you do have the brake controller. A WD hitch, preferably with sway control built in such as the Equal-i-zer, the Fastway E2, or the Andersen No-Sway hitch would improve your ride quality and would make sure you have sufficient weight on the front end for steering and traction since it sounds like you have the FWD Escape like I did. Even with the Equal-i-zer well adjusted, I could still spin the tires easily if I gave it too much gas when taking off from a standstill. I avoided dirt roads because I did not want to be in a situation where I had to stop on a hill and would not be able to get going again.

An alternative to a WDH with sway control is electronic sway control such as that from Tuson, Hayes, or Lippert. I have the Hayes Sway-Master which I added after our accident. I never wanted to be in the situation where applying the trailer brakes (which the Escape won't do since the factory sway control only controls the vehicle wheels) would have helped bring the trailer back in line. In the midst of an incident, there is not always time to think about reaching for the manual control. The Hayes Sway-Master applies the trailer brakes if it detects a sway situation.


-------------
StephenH
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,...

http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods
Former RPod 179
Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS


Posted By: pedwards2932
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2020 at 1:42pm
That sway control looks great.......I'd have to move the terminal board to make room for it.  The Hayes looks to be about $370 from the manufactorer. It uses GPS and gyro.  Lippert about same price uses accelerometer and gyro.  Tuscon is $550 somehow monitors yaw?  I would worry a little about using GPS if you lost signal?  It will definitely be my next purchase.  Thanks.


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2020 at 2:45pm
I tend to agree about the gps LOS issue. The Tucson does look interesting, I hadn't looked at it before. 

I think it can probably do what it needs to with just an accelerometer. Its mounted on the front crossmember so in a sway event it measures lateral acceleration of that point relative to the axle. Displacement in mathematical terms is just the second integral of acceleration, so from the acceleration it can know how far the sensor has been displaced side to side. If it knew how far the unit was from the axle it would be able to easily calculate the yaw angle, but I don't see where it is ever actually programmed for that distance so it probably doesn't know the actual angle,. But it probably doesn't need to, it can learn what is normal yaw while turning and distinguish oscillations in yaw due to sway from that.

 Interesting device, but boy is it pricey. 


-------------
1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2020 at 6:11pm
Originally posted by pedwards2932

That sway control looks great.......I'd have to move the terminal board to make room for it.  The Hayes looks to be about $370 from the manufactorer. It uses GPS and gyro.  Lippert about same price uses accelerometer and gyro.  Tuscon is $550 somehow monitors yaw?  I would worry a little about using GPS if you lost signal?  It will definitely be my next purchase.  Thanks.
The GPS is for speed detection. The gyro is for the sway control. The Hayes needs to know how fast you are going so it does not apply the brakes in a situation where it would be counterproductive, such as low speed turns. It fully activates at 45 mph. I'm not sure how the other two handle it. I don't think a simple accelerometer would detect vehicle speed. It would detect rate of yaw, but the gyro would likely also be able to handle that.
Pitch: front to back tilting movement.
Yaw: side to side movement.
Roll: Just like it sounds rotational movement in line with the trailer.



-------------
StephenH
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,...

http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods
Former RPod 179
Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS


Posted By: pedwards2932
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2020 at 6:56pm
Found this:
To help narrow down the decision much quicker the Lippert has restrictions on its use so we can cut that one out of the running (it is only compatible with up to 2 axles and won't work with 2014 or newer GM trucks and SUVs equipped with an integrated trailer brake control module).

Seems like the Hayes is easier to set up.....and as you indicated it only works after 45 mph....what happens if it loses GPS signal?










/


Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2020 at 7:29pm
I mounted mine up higher because I have a Stromberg-Carlsen Trailer Tray that blocks a good part of the sky above the Hayes unit if mounted on the A frame, so I mounted it on the Trailer Tray instead so it would have a clearer view of the sky. I think it would be like a navigation GPS. There are enough satellites that it might lose sight of some, but then gain sight of others. So far, it has not been a problem.

-------------
StephenH
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,...

http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods
Former RPod 179
Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 28 Sep 2020 at 5:15am
I've had gps loss of signal many many times. You have to have good signals from a minimum of 4 satellites for it to work. If you are in a tunnel, canyon, or urban building canyon that is frequently not the case. If the Hayes device depended on gps to work I doubt they could sell it, the liability risk would be extremely high. Probably the software defaults to assume the speed is >45 when there is no gps speed, allowing the system to operate when gps is not available. That might be a bit annoying if it didn't distinguish sway from turns but it would it would be safer.

Technically a moving body can have 6 degrees of freedom (pitch, roll, yaw, surge, heave, and sway). StephenH already described pitch, roll, and yaw.  Surge, heave, and sway are accelerations fore/aft, up/down, and side to side.

But I think what we call trailer sway is really yaw, at least initially, by the time it becomes actual significant side to side movement its probably getting to be too late to correct safely. So, after my previous comment on the Tucson device I rethought it and I think it probably uses a MEMS gyro to directly measure yaw. The Lippert device looks like it measures both yaw with a gyro and sway with an accelerometer.

To be clear, none of these will have old school rotating gyros, the MEMS devices are micro-electromechanical systems that use vibrating structures fabricated like IC's instead of rotating parts. Sensors measure the forces produced when the orientation of the vibrating structures changes. Cheap, small, and reliable. 

Since the motion of a swaying trailer is quite different from a turning rig I don't think should be necessary to use gps to distinguish the two.   After all, your butt certainly doesn't need to know how fast you are going to differentiate sway from turns.  And it looks like 2 of the 3 vendors take that approach.  For one thing the frequency of the trailer in sway is much higher than when turning. Unless maybe you are running a gymkhana in your rig LOL.  



-------------
1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold



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