My New TV |
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podwerkz
Senior Member Joined: 11 Mar 2019 Location: Texas Online Status: Offline Posts: 966 |
Topic: My New TV Posted: 30 Aug 2020 at 9:11am |
This is the only time you will ever hear me say that I want higher taxes:
I will be GLAD to see the federal and state governments step in and tax the EVs on a per mile basis to even out the costs for using our roads. Right now most EVs are using our roads for free and that needs to change. The motorfuel taxing system needs to be applied fairly and evenly across the board, even to EVs. The technology is there to accomplish this. Some taxing entities want to raise the motorfuel taxes to make up for all the lost revenue with efficient petroleum powered vehicles, and electric vehicles, and as a result of so many Americans not driving as much as they did pre-covid. This will unfairly burden the petroleum powered vehicles, while allowing EVs to travel 'under the radar'...and this needs to change. |
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r・pod 171 gone but not forgotten!
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offgrid
Senior Member Joined: 23 Jul 2018 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5290 |
Posted: 30 Aug 2020 at 8:09am |
We agree about hydrogen. At least as long as the vast majority (95% currently) is manufactured via steam reforming of methane in natural gas. That process separates the carbon and hydrogen in the methane so produces CO2 as a waste stream. It uses lots of water too. So where is the environmental benefit?
The alternative to methane production of hydrogen is electrolysis, which can be done using renewable electricity. The problem with that is that now the hydrogen is no longer really a fuel. It is an energy storage system, like a battery. and therefore needs to compete with batteries. The wire to wheel efficiency of hydrogen produced by electrolysis, compressed, transported to a fuel station, dispensed into a fuel cell vehicle, and "burned" in the fuel cell to produce electricity to drive an electric motor is abysmal, only about 20%. Compare that to lithium battery ev's at about 60%, more if the electricity generation is co-located with the ev (eg, rooftop solar). There is just no way H2 can compete as an energy storage system. Again, there is a reason this technology continues to get attention and funding, and that is because the source of energy is natural gas. I don't agree about wind turbines. Wind turbines have an even lower energy payback period than solar. Solar pays back the energy that went into its production and deployment in around a couple of years, wind turbines are around 6 months. The problem with wind turbines is siting them. Energy production from wind goes up with the cube of the wind speed so to be viable they have to be sited at the windiest locations possible. That puts a strain on our aging electrical transmission infrastructure. Solar produces energy in direct proportion to the sunlight it receives so you can pretty much put it anywhere. Then there is the NIMBY problem with wind. We need to get over that. Solar doesn't have that problem, no one minds solar on their or their neighbor's roof. I agree with you regarding nuclear. Its obviously not anyone's first choice to have in their backyard, but in reality a lot more people have died from smokestack pollution from coal plants than from all the nuclear accidents combined. So, like with wind, we need to get over the NIMBY. We don't really don't have much choice in the near term other than to deploy any and all cost effective low carbon generating capacity we can. Let's not confuse energy storage with energy production. Solar, wind, nuclear are all energy production systems, not energy storage systems. Energy storage is what is needed for vehicles. Those are fossil fuels, hydrogen, batteries, flywheels. Fossil fuels also happen to used for energy production, but only because they have been storing solar energy for millions of years. Actually, the only energy source we have that is not derived from solar is nuclear fission. And discussing fusion in the same paragraph as real production technologies like fission, solar, and wind is not helpful, the implication is that this is an intellectual exercise and not something we need to address now. Of the energy storage systems, batteries are viable for transportation now. There are over 7 million electric cars on the road as of 2020. So, I disagree with the statement that "there is no viable substitute for the ICE in transportation". That is simply not true. 95% of the trips we make are less than the range of today's ev's. and level 3 DC fast chargers take about 30-45 minutes, not days. If you want to revise that to say "there is no viable substitute for the ICE in some transportation applications" then I can agree. So what? What in life is absolute? Suggesting that we can't do anything until we have some kind of perfect magic bullet that exactly replaces what we have now is just an excuse to do nothing and as such is not realistic and smacks of being political, whether that was intended or not. |
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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
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StephenH
podders Helping podders - pHp Joined: 29 Nov 2015 Location: Wake Forest, NC Online Status: Offline Posts: 6288 |
Posted: 29 Aug 2020 at 7:51pm |
Yes, I was making an over-simplification in my statement about green technologies. It was already pointed out about hydrogen problems. That was one I had in mind. It sounds good that you only get water vapor from the tailpipe, but it is the process of making hydrogen available in sufficient quantities for practical use that is a problem. Windmills sound good if one looks at taking advantage of "free" wind, but what goes into a windmill and the impact of building and operating them is not so environmentally benign. Solar sounds good and I certainly support further development of that as it has already come a long way. However, it is still not a viable substitute for vehicles. One still needs adequate generating capacity that is not impacted by cloudy days or lack of wind. I'm in favor of developing newer nuclear technologies that are not as subject to the safety issues Fukushima Daiichi, 3 Mile Island, Chernobyl, or similar reactors. We need them to consume the byproducts of fission instead of removing and then trying to find a way to store them for thousands of years. Fusion would be great if the scientists can ever get to the point where the energy output exceeds the energy input needed to get a reaction going. Right now, there is no viable substitute for ICE for transportation. I can't see doing the travel we have done with a battery operated tow vehicle. It is possible to tow with an electric vehicle, but I don't see it having the range needed for us to travel to visit our daughters and grandchildren without needing to allow one or two additional days just for charging stops. Meanwhile, that electricity has to come from somewhere. It does not magically appear. I hope a viable alternative to fossil fuels can be discovered. I just don't think we are there yet. That is not political, just realistic.
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StephenH
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS |
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offgrid
Senior Member Joined: 23 Jul 2018 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5290 |
Posted: 29 Aug 2020 at 4:21pm |
We all have choices to make. You can have a Big Mac or a salad for lunch. Neither is free but one is good for your health, the other will kill you eventually but your taste buds might be happier in the meantime
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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
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lostagain
Senior Member Joined: 06 Sep 2016 Location: Quaker Hill, CT Online Status: Offline Posts: 2587 |
Posted: 29 Aug 2020 at 4:06pm |
Bottom line, there ain't no such thing as a free lunch.
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Never leave footprints behind.
Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
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offgrid
Senior Member Joined: 23 Jul 2018 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5290 |
Posted: 29 Aug 2020 at 2:28pm |
Great, specific technologies to discuss!
Corn ethanol is certainly highly debateable, most studies show modest net positive GHG emissions relative to gasoline (about 20-40% reduction). Sugar cane ethanol is much better, more in the range of 70-80%. I'm interested in seeing what the ecological footprint methodology suggests but the link was broken.
EV's certainly are an overall improvement over fossil based ICE's. While battery raw materials production, like all industrial processes, have their issues, the total mass of Li being produced and used is tiny, roughly 10 kg per vehicle. In comparison, my highly efficient Prius will consume over 24 metric tonnes of gasoline over its lifetime. So, EV battery production is nothing like as environmentally damaging as fossil fuel production and transportation. Ask the folks in Maritius for example. And GHG production of the electricity being used in the vehicles can be zero if renewable or nuclear electricity is used. No one is suggesting that there is a single technology that can immediately replace all uses of ICE's, and that isn't necessary anyhow. A typical range of 250-300 miles for today's ev's is plenty for 95% of requirements, without ever stopping for a fast charge somewhere. But that doesn't mean the viable alternatives need to continue to be "explored", as if we don't understand them yet. There are very well proven technologies that just need to be implemented. PV is a very well understood technology for example, as are Li batteries. |
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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
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lostagain
Senior Member Joined: 06 Sep 2016 Location: Quaker Hill, CT Online Status: Offline Posts: 2587 |
Posted: 29 Aug 2020 at 1:20pm |
Ethanol is problematic. A conclusion from a study of ethanol as a fuel: The use of ethanol as a substitute for gasoline proved to be neither a sustainable nor an environmentally friendly option, considering ecological footprint values, and both net energy and CO2 offset considerations seemed relatively unimportant compared to the ecological footprint. As revealed by the eco- logical footprint approach, the direct and indirect environ- mental impacts of growing, harvesting, and converting biomass to ethanol far exceed any value in developing this alternative energy resource on a large scale. https://watermark.silverchair.com/55-7-593.pdf?token=AQECAHi208BE49Ooan9kkhW_Ercy7Dm3ZL_9Cf3qfKAc485ysgAAAsYwggLCBgkqhkiG9w0BBwagggKzMIICrwIBADCCAqgGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAeBglghkgBZQMEAS4wEQQMsUDUH-nglZwXYP7qAgEQgIICeSzHzsbOPBzZzfl7GwyYrPtyvWJ2ouvDMehUXUFwLHOJZJpAnVImJ4mX2wkMavNWt184_8HwQ-K0Hniyk4dRY9ru9eew9g88Nt8G2jUAj5PqX6yNxQKsw2FlxPFrx7u6rUWg2ySl7cuEvGiVpKH1laso2LpHysOHn98fJUsNrv-j36oPsLaVEVRs2nkz_gPSsKOpEhSfMjNaiGGJcw3FZN7gxhH0XGHyMBKO1Wjra0pI3agCLGA0apb4rOvQqpxb9yIMHeXyB4uMMQGSoBCHSRF2JsuRop4IISIiIdVP_qs4543YiIw782oYe3hcwYrlGUXAJqjaF9I9BVvATVl3RMS_2qYf6IZC7Rpk76vcFvFzgFfr3vr504fYOeAUaol3z0P6jJCkz9zDQt4No8n4j3uY8PR5mprh5y009qoPsLLMrqH8eERytiJKWSsUjnsjsQVadqNQrnrVe81HUgpSugvqv5PhgEox2NAmDjoEnJBISHZszDRtpkOIFb1LbVATWtCOwbmbZEkVbu-X6-BHdaYSmlcaQnymr-3UL14t2nRYU3gqnNCIKVSrVyiOhkenQSilD38ooAIKk7X7EPNPBkMUdULr7pP_upZEQ5_FdPOOQNr3Wago8l_01tgZPEIPo6dEXVq9aa1mK_xRZ6PXqaR00iNMiZdfJMl7ut8m5nI_rvcHUc4-B-0w8TQx7Hiwiwh0E75DU8qN0MBJKruQBAoVqCN5pcMHjP_owkQRxbTlWiLAUrqIhaZHvAqGBREX7kvhRH9WF45zXTxpxRZ9gHPOGXzqXdtTeaHD205FrkZlEoFybSg-eac3FUNrkgL0XTzAw4pcLk4Cjw
Battery powered vehicles also have their environmental issues due to the production of the batteries and the required rare earths that have to be mined, the source of the energy to produce the electricity, etc. As usual the devil is in the details. Alternative forms of energy storage and its motive use need to be explored, but there is no panacea that will replace the ICE. Each has its unanticipated consequences. The important thing is that we honestly and accurately compare the relative benefits and costs of each. Unfortunately, the proponents of any given form of motive energy tout the benefits of what they like and often ignore the drawbacks.
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Never leave footprints behind.
Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
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offgrid
Senior Member Joined: 23 Jul 2018 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5290 |
Posted: 29 Aug 2020 at 11:28am |
Hydrogen is awful. It will never happen. At least one can hope not. The overall efficiency of an H2 vehicle is less than half of an ev. And 95% of industrial H2 comes from reforming natural gas. its getting funded via lobbying by the fossil fuel industry, for obvious reasons. But tell me what you mean by "Like so many of the "green" technologies, the reality is that they end up being worse for the environment than the "dirty" fossil fuels that are supposed to be so bad."? Which other ones? Let's be specific. That kind of generic statement appears to be an oversimplification with political overtones.
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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
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StephenH
podders Helping podders - pHp Joined: 29 Nov 2015 Location: Wake Forest, NC Online Status: Offline Posts: 6288 |
Posted: 29 Aug 2020 at 11:01am |
If you check the "include non-retail" locations, there is one in Graniteville, SC which may be closer. Otherwise, it will be quite a while before any hydrogen infrastructure is in place. Given the energy needs to produce hydrogen, it won't be economically feasible any time soon and likely would never really be economically feasible. Like so many of the "green" technologies, the reality is that they end up being worse for the environment than the "dirty" fossil fuels that are supposed to be so bad.
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StephenH
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS |
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offgrid
Senior Member Joined: 23 Jul 2018 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5290 |
Posted: 29 Aug 2020 at 9:51am |
Definitely vaporware (hydrogen vapor that is). Where do you get more of that when you run out? I live in SW VA and the closest one to me looks like its in Connecticut.
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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
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