Urgent Petition To Keep RV Campgrounds Open |
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Wirat
Groupie Joined: 31 Jan 2020 Location: Florida Online Status: Offline Posts: 67 |
Topic: Urgent Petition To Keep RV Campgrounds Open Posted: 01 Apr 2020 at 12:12pm |
Good points. There's a lot of book theory going in to these findings and then doctors or whomever use those theories to back up their hypotheses. There is a Dr. David Price from Cornell in NYC that specializes in pulmonary disease and has been working in one of the hardest hit Covid19 hospitals there for weeks and swimming in it daily. There is a video on YouTube with him doing a teleconference where he says from his experience of working with Covid19 so far he's observed that a mask will help you if there are droplets, but that contact from your hands to your face is the primary route of infection and that's what people need to concentrate on. He gives advice on how to protect yourself and says if you follow it you will not get the disease. Of course, that's if you believe him. I don't travel on a subway or live in a congested area like people do in big cities here or in Asia. In Asia and they wear masks a lot even before Covid19 mostly because of air pollution. I can see where it would help to stop droplets and spray especially if the person wearing it coughed or sneezed. Some people even spit when they talk. So many differing opinions now, who to believe. Nothing wrong with wearing a mask IMO, biggest problem we have today is the minority of people who are not following the basic guidelines. So it spreads. Seems to me it cannot infect you if it's not transported to you, or you don't go to it... |
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2019 R-Pod 191
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lostagain
Senior Member Joined: 06 Sep 2016 Location: Quaker Hill, CT Online Status: Offline Posts: 2587 |
Posted: 01 Apr 2020 at 12:23pm |
Never leave footprints behind.
Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
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EchoGale
Senior Member Joined: 10 Mar 2019 Location: FL Online Status: Offline Posts: 461 |
Posted: 01 Apr 2020 at 12:50pm |
Thanks for this interesting article. I've been wearing a mask for a week or so now (though I am actually out very little). I've not seen anyone else doing so here in North Florida.
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Julie
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offgrid
Senior Member Joined: 23 Jul 2018 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5290 |
Posted: 01 Apr 2020 at 2:58pm |
I watched Dr. Price's video, and a lot of what's in there is great advice. But his statement that you can only get this by touching something contaminated and then touching your face is not correct or appropriate. There is plenty of evidence that it can be spread by airborne droplets, as can the flu.
One thing that causes confusion apparently is the technical definition of "airborne". This goes back to the 1930's segregation into large and small droplets. The "small" droplets were thought to dry up almost immediately leaving tiny particles called aerosols. For a virus to be considered to be "airborne" it had to be able to be transmitted via these aerosols. There is no evidence yet that Covid-19 can be transmitted that way. But that doesn't mean you can't breathe in droplets that a sick person has released and get sick that way. Of course you can. And the MIT study suggests that much smaller droplets can stay droplets for longer and travel farther than the old studies suggested. Again, medical doctors are experts on how to treat patients. They aren't geneticists, magnetic resonance imaging engineers, or fluid dynamicists. Health care today involves specialists in so many different advanced scientific and technical fields that nobody can be an expert in all of them. Its silly when some doctors still attempt to do that. We'll see whether the guidelines change to include mask wearing for the general public. Some central European countries like Austria are already reversing course on this. Not recommending them for the general public creates mistrust as no one believes that they can magically only work for health care professionals or that the public is too stupid to learn how to use them correctly. The harm comes if ppl hoard them so there's not enough for the medical workers, but any that were available for hoarding have long since been hoarded now anyhow.
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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
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lostagain
Senior Member Joined: 06 Sep 2016 Location: Quaker Hill, CT Online Status: Offline Posts: 2587 |
Posted: 01 Apr 2020 at 3:14pm |
It's all a question of probability and field experience. Certainly, it is possible to catch Covid-19 from airborne aerosols, however, the clinical experience seems to suggest that this is less effective means of transmission than hand to face. If it was an efficient means of transmission, then we'd be seeing a lot more medical personnel falling ill, as even the N95 masks can't filter out all virus particles.
There is tremendous disagreement about the efficacy of face masks, and the design and handling of them is all over the map. But countries that have traditionally used face masks on a large scale, seem to be fairing better than those who have no culture of using masks. No strap on mask can stop all virus particles from entering your lungs, but reducing the viral load and, more importantly keeping you hands off your face, makes masks a viable tool to reduce exposure. And masks are especially helpful in reducing the aerosolized particles from entering the air, when an infected (whether s/he knows it or not) sneezes or coughs. My wife has been experimenting with mask designs and she has come up with several that we have shared with family and others in our community. If regularly washed, dried in a dryer, and properly handled as a potentially infectious object before laundering, they can be an aid in reducing the virus. We don't go out in public with out one. We don't have any reason to think we are infected, but on the off chance we are, we'd feel just awful infecting someone else.
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Never leave footprints behind.
Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
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David and Danette
podders Helping podders - pHp Joined: 24 Nov 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1214 |
Posted: 01 Apr 2020 at 3:22pm |
My wife and I last night watched on PBS about the flu epidemic of 1919 it gives you a idea how bad contagious disease can spread and the seriousness of what is happening now. We have our vegetable garden started reminds me kind of like the Victory Gardens they had during World War two.
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2018 Vista Cruiser 19BFD (2018-
2012 Vibe 6503 (2014-2019) 2009 r-pod 171 (2009-2014) Middle Tn 2014 Ram 1500 Quad cab |
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offgrid
Senior Member Joined: 23 Jul 2018 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5290 |
Posted: 01 Apr 2020 at 4:38pm |
The physics behind the fluid dynamics of droplets is important because we need to have a basis for our decisions beyond just some doctors saying this is their experience in uncontrolled conditions. That is an opinion, not science. They have not done controlled experiments or case studies or statistical analysis. We might have better field experience after this surge in cases is over from case studies like this one. In the meantime we can't tease things apart with statistics either unless we can identify two populations, one which wore masks and the other which didn't, and that's the only significant difference between them. There are many other differences between the way east Asia and the West have managed this besides mask wearing. A lot of medical personnel have fallen ill, even though they do wear masks and in theory they do wash their hands properly, and don't touch their faces. They are our front line heroes in this fight. In the meantime my main point is that the CDC needs to treat us like grownups and rather than tell us that masks won't help us bc we haven't been trained how to use them, at least tell us that the data is uncertain and if you want to wear a mask here's how to do it properly. And this argument that wearing a mask makes you touch your face more is crazy to me. A mask is a great reminder not to touch your face as feels so unnatural. |
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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
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lostagain
Senior Member Joined: 06 Sep 2016 Location: Quaker Hill, CT Online Status: Offline Posts: 2587 |
Posted: 01 Apr 2020 at 5:48pm |
more info: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAk7aX5hksU
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Never leave footprints behind.
Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
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offgrid
Senior Member Joined: 23 Jul 2018 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5290 |
Posted: 01 Apr 2020 at 6:45pm |
Great video, thanks. Kim Woo-Ju is my hero, what a great guy, data driven, practical, no nonsense, and humble to boot. Can we steal him from S Korea?
The 5 micron cutoff between aerosols and droplets is arbitrary and the issue the MIT research team is challenging. Their point is that there is a continuum of droplet sizes and gas puffs entrain and protect smaller droplets and can carry them much further than previously thought. In any case, IMHO and as our good Korean Dr says, we should try to do whatever we can that can help stop the spread, including wearing masks if we have them. If we can keep the hospitals from being overwhelmed like in NY we can avoid what is happening in NYC, Italy, and Spain. The life you save may be your own or a loved one's. |
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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
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GlueGuy
Senior Member Joined: 15 May 2017 Location: N. California Online Status: Offline Posts: 2629 |
Posted: 02 Apr 2020 at 10:05am |
There's a reason they call it "practicing" medicine. There are not hard lines, or black and white delineators like in pure physics. There is good evidence that just being in the room with someone with CV is not enough to infect you. There are variables with regard to viral load, and a person's susceptibility that you can not account for with physics. We have no idea how many viral particles it takes to infect a person, but it's almost certainly more than one, or ten, or a hundred. Probably more than a few thousand. Then again, it will probably vary from person to person.
If you walk into a room and happen to breath in a few tens or a few hundred viral particles, you may or may not become infected.
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bp
2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River 2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost |
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