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Olddawgsrule View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Loading and balancing the trailer
    Posted: 16 Oct 2019 at 9:21am
I now have Lily back and am going through setting her back up.

I have a baseline tongue weight now of 375#'s with a stripped down Pod. No propane tank, no batteries, no water or waste water, no cushions... I do mean stripped.

I've mounted my batteries (dual 6v's) and placed the tank back on. I just added 156#'s to the tongue. So by using the formula Force x Length = Weight x length (X) I built a spreadsheet using F=(W x X)L to determine how much gear to offset the added weight.

On my 182g, distance from axle to center between batteries/propane tank is 132". My garage/rear through storage is 66" from the axle center. Result becomes 312#'s in the rear storage to balance out the added weight. 

Next, since I travel with about 5-6 gallons of water on board, I'll measure up to the holding tank and work out the numbers. 
I'll be doing this with each item I put back in. I want to know what is where and how much should be.

I should have hit the scales on my way home for a baseline trailer weight. Yet, tracking everything going back in, I will be able to deduct and get that number. 

Hope this exercise will help others see just what is happening and how the trailer weight adds up so quickly and how to possibly reduce that tongue weight. I see far too many adding so many things up front: second tanks, storage boxes for tools, bike racks, generators, and on the list goes. 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2019 at 10:24am
Congrats on getting your pod back.  Rather interesting that your stripped hitch weight is almost 100 lbs higher than FR's listed tongue weight. Hmmm.....

You might want to calc the battery and propane tank moments separately using the two different moment arms. What is your hitch weight adding the propane and batteries (it will be 375 + battery weight x battery to axle dist)/axle to hitch distance + propane weight x propane to axle distance/hitch to axle distance. 

BTW, why are you wanting to keep the tongue weight at 375?   As long as your tongue weight is within limits for your tow vehicle I think higher is better because that keeps load off the (weak) trailer axle and frame and also resists sway. 
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Olddawgsrule View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2019 at 12:32pm
Originally posted by offgrid

Congrats on getting your pod back.  Rather interesting that your stripped hitch weight is almost 100 lbs higher than FR's listed tongue weight. Hmmm.....

You might want to calc the battery and propane tank moments separately using the two different moment arms. What is your hitch weight adding the propane and batteries (it will be 375 + battery weight x battery to axle dist)/axle to hitch distance + propane weight x propane to axle distance/hitch to axle distance. 

BTW, why are you wanting to keep the tongue weight at 375?   As long as your tongue weight is within limits for your tow vehicle I think higher is better because that keeps load off the (weak) trailer axle and frame and also resists sway. 

Interesting, that way reduced the counter weight by 73#'s. I will continue as suggested. Thank you for correcting.

I feel going beyond what is reasonable for the trailer (in my mind 420#'s) tongue weight is just asking for a issue with the A frame. As I've mentioned, my dealer is looking into my bent A frame. How much is too much on that A frame? I've done the scales and the math to find I run at about 400#s on the hitch. I have a bent A frame.. 375#'s is close to 11% of the trailer axle rating. I have strived to stay close to 3200#'s on the axle. That puts me very close to 12.5% of the rating. That to me is a very safe spot. I find that being there, I really don't need WDH, which I'd also like not to run with. I will run with sway control though (relax all, I not going crazy here.. LOL). 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2019 at 12:44pm
Originally posted by offgrid

Congrats on getting your pod back.  Rather interesting that your stripped hitch weight is almost 100 lbs higher than FR's listed tongue weight. Hmmm.....

You might want to calc the battery and propane tank moments separately using the two different moment arms. What is your hitch weight adding the propane and batteries (it will be 375 + battery weight x battery to axle dist)/axle to hitch distance + propane weight x propane to axle distance/hitch to axle distance. 

BTW, why are you wanting to keep the tongue weight at 375?   As long as your tongue weight is within limits for your tow vehicle I think higher is better because that keeps load off the (weak) trailer axle and frame and also resists sway. 

From this I can calculate my counter balance to the area of loading. Is it as simple as to increase my tongue weight by 10#'s, I can reduce my counter balance by 10#'s? 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2019 at 1:51pm
No, you are balancing moments not weights, so you need to calculate the moments relative to the axle for each added or subtracted weight and then divide by the distance from the axle to the hitch. 

The new hitch weight is = old hitch weight + added wt*distance from weight to axle/distance from axle to hitch if the wt is is front of the axle. And new hitch weight = old hitch weight - added wt*distance from weight to axle/distance from axle to hitch if the wt is behind the axle.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2019 at 2:52pm
Originally posted by offgrid

No, you are balancing moments not weights, so you need to calculate the moments relative to the axle for each added or subtracted weight and then divide by the distance from the axle to the hitch. 

The new hitch weight is = old hitch weight + added wt*distance from weight to axle/distance from axle to hitch if the wt is is front of the axle. And new hitch weight = old hitch weight - added wt*distance from weight to axle/distance from axle to hitch if the wt is behind the axle.



I do so asking you! I do so hope you don't mind! You're explanation/example of formula helps a lot! 

In my case, dealing with 10lbs means only 4lbs on the hitch. The spreadsheet is being built with entries and constants. 

Entries being weight and distance being added or subtracted in location there of. Constant is axle to hitch and starting weight. Your advise to measure each meant a lot and truly learned from that. 

I just don't wish to forget to thank you for your input!


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct 2019 at 6:08am
Basically you're creating what in aviation we call a weight and balance spreadsheet. As you can imagine, its critical to know where your c of g is in an aircraft. Too far aft and the plane will pitch up and you'll stall and not be able to get the nose down and recover. Too far forward and you can't get the nose down to take off or land. Either way is BAAAD. 

You want to set up "stations" (aka "moment arms"), or distances from the "datum", which is a fixed reference location. In this case you are using the axle location as the datum. Then when you change the weight loaded at each station the spreadsheet will do the multiplication and addition of all the moments, then divide the total by the station for the hitch to get the weight being added or subtracted there. If you make all the stations aft of the axle negative then the math will work out. 

You can also subtract from the baseline weight at each station by putting a "negative weight" at that station. The math works for that too. In my case my baseline hitch weight included 250 lbs of water in the fresh water tank at the beginning of a boon dock trip.  Worst case I assume all that water moves aft to the gray tank for the return trip. That alone changes my tongue weight by 3%, so I worked on load distribution to get my starting hitch weight at about 14% and ending hitch weight at about 11%.  That keeps everything within limits, but doesn't leave much room for any unanticipated load changes. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct 2019 at 8:08am
I would like to see this completed worksheet.  Still fuzzy on the formula for the % of weight to add or subtract as relative to the distance from the center point, in this case, the axle.  If I were to add 100 lbs behind the axle would it be the same, regardless if it is 12" behind or 48" behind, or is there another formula for this as well?  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct 2019 at 8:59am
OG, I believe I mis-calculated my counter balance. I believe I should used: New hitch weight x distance to axle / distance axle to load area (behind the axle).

Thus, my added weight to counter balance is 107#'s, distance hitch to axle being 156" and load area behind axle being 66"

107 x 156 / 66 = 253#'s of gear to counter balance the added 107#'s on the hitch I added.

The 107#'s added to hitch comes from 136#'s of battery X Battery to axle 123" / hitch to axle 156"

136 x 123 / 156 = 107

I will get this right sooner or later... With your help of course! 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct 2019 at 9:22am
Originally posted by jato

I would like to see this completed worksheet.  Still fuzzy on the formula for the % of weight to add or subtract as relative to the distance from the center point, in this case, the axle.  If I were to add 100 lbs behind the axle would it be the same, regardless if it is 12" behind or 48" behind, or is there another formula for this as well?  

My approach to this (first is get it right) is to fully understand how I'm loading and what I'm placing for weight where and effect on my hitch (and of course axle).

By the example I did above. My batteries weigh 136#'s. With OG showing how to determine what is happening where (by moments) I can see 107#'s added to the hitch and only 29#'s back on the axle. 

As OG mentioned. If your TV can handle the additional weight, then your go to go and you increase your axle weight by so little.
I have a garage unit (182g) so a lot of my gear goes out back. To me, I put X#'s being that axle it's equal on the axle. I'm looking at 253#'s of gear behind the axle (in my storage area) to counter the additional I placed on the hitch. 
For me, right now I'm adding 282#'s on my axle. Not hard to load the gear back there. Heck, pretty close to just running with a full tank of fresh water for me..

I just realized I need another column for sub-totals..




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