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Lithium battery?

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Olddawgsrule View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Olddawgsrule Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Lithium battery?
    Posted: 27 Jan 2018 at 8:18am
I'm going to pickup my R-Pod in spring and researching through my battery choices. Top on my list is going with 2-6v 230ah batteries. Next would be building a Li-ion battery pack.

Costs are one thing, but what strikes me most is traveling across borders with what will be considered a hazardous material. As I currently understand Lithium used under a 4 cell configuration is not within the hazardous material definition. 

Has anyone here made the switch to lithium? And the big question: Have you traveled cross border with it?
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Tars Tarkas View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Tars Tarkas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 2018 at 9:44am
Not sure this is helpful at all, but we have crossed into Canada with our Pod and there was absolutely no question or mention of what kind of batteries we had on board. (We didn't have Li-ion.) 

Given the cost of these things, I'm curious how one rationalizes their use.  I see some advantages to them of course, but my cost/benefit analysis is coming up short. Smile

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Olddawgsrule Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 2018 at 10:58am
Cost depends on your use vs and how you go about it. I have the ability to build my own. My cost would be less than $500 all in.

Now if I resource my 18650's, that cost can be $150... I also have a source that not many have. Indeed 120 of them to reach 'my' goal. I'm at 20 now.. long way to go..

My concern now is legality. 

If not asked about battery, have you been asked about hazardous substances? I've yet to cross border with  camper..
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Post Options Post Options   Quote GlueGuy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 2018 at 12:04pm
Originally posted by Tars Tarkas

Not sure this is helpful at all, but we have crossed into Canada with our Pod and there was absolutely no question or mention of what kind of batteries we had on board. (We didn't have Li-ion.) 

Given the cost of these things, I'm curious how one rationalizes their use.  I see some advantages to them of course, but my cost/benefit analysis is coming up short. Smile

TT
Excellent point. Right this minute, Lithium is going to cost more on a watt-hour per dollar basis. However, there are several mitigating factors. First, lead acid can generally only be discharged to ~~ 50% of their full charge. Lithium can go much,much lower. I haven't seen any numbers lately, but I'm pretty sure you can go all the way down to 5 or 10 % SOC and still be good. The second factor is the number of charge cycles. Lead acid are good for maybe about 1,000-1,500 charge cycles, and lithium can double that number. Third factor is the weight/watt. Lithium will be quite a bit lighter than lead acid.

Once solid state batteries come to market in the next 5 years or so, we may see a whole new ball game.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Olddawgsrule Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 2018 at 12:53pm
You are hitting all the main points of converting over!

cost is the greatest! That is the point/issue to be over-come.

My Solar work has show me you can't beat a 6v battery (doubled up) vs a single 12v. Lithium as I'm seeing goes very close to 100% capacity. 

Done properly, and worth repeating, done properly, Lithium based batteries are very safe to use. With no maintenance required.

I do not suggest everyone builds their own without researching. I also do not recommend just buying a pre-built system. Even Telsa's system would take a pro to fix an issue and that would cost you thousands.. I had seen several direct cost units at half their price, but again, a pro to fix.

'If' you do go Lithium, I do suggest you learn as much as you can about them. Once there, build your own. You will save $$$ and know how to repair if required.

Back to the point of the post...

Has anyone crossing borders with your Pod been asked if traveling with Hazardous Materials?



Originally posted by GlueGuy

Originally posted by Tars Tarkas

Not sure this is helpful at all, but we have crossed into Canada with our Pod and there was absolutely no question or mention of what kind of batteries we had on board. (We didn't have Li-ion.) 

Given the cost of these things, I'm curious how one rationalizes their use.  I see some advantages to them of course, but my cost/benefit analysis is coming up short. Smile

TT
Excellent point. Right this minute, Lithium is going to cost more on a watt-hour per dollar basis. However, there are several mitigating factors. First, lead acid can generally only be discharged to ~~ 50% of their full charge. Lithium can go much,much lower. I haven't seen any numbers lately, but I'm pretty sure you can go all the way down to 5 or 10 % SOC and still be good. The second factor is the number of charge cycles. Lead acid are good for maybe about 1,000-1,500 charge cycles, and lithium can double that number. Third factor is the weight/watt. Lithium will be quite a bit lighter than lead acid.

Once solid state batteries come to market in the next 5 years or so, we may see a whole new ball game.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote GlueGuy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 2018 at 2:40pm
Originally posted by Olddawgsrule

I do not suggest everyone builds their own without researching. I also do not recommend just buying a pre-built system. Even Telsa's system would take a pro to fix an issue and that would cost you thousands.. I had seen several direct cost units at half their price, but again, a pro to fix.
Now that you mention it, I was surprised by the base cost of the Tesla PowerWall. Not that it was cheaper than a lead-acid system (it was still more expensive). The surprise was that it wasn't THAT much more expensive. In fact, when you consider the advantages, it could be argued as being quite competitive.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Olddawgsrule Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 2018 at 4:26pm
Marketing prices GG.. Marketing..

It could be much more affordable, but right now no one will move from the current pricing. Even China has priced accordingly, which surprises me. I can buy their system under another name for $3k vs the 5.5K Telsa offers.
Problem being we can't be certain of construction... No one yet knows who makes their unit.

There is anew version of the 18650 coming out.This should bring the costs down a tad, but don't expect any big.. The demand is still too high.

Heck, you used to be able to get used 18650's for free. Now they're auctioned off at crazy prices of Ebay..

I say research, understand before you dive in. Far too many bad sellers out there selling crap with huge claims. Know your source.

I'm testing what could be a manufacturer of the Big Boys. I'll have them in 2 weeks and test them. If correct, I'll post where and what. Was lead there by a good source. We'll see soon how good. 

I really like the idea of Lithium. I'm looking for the best source of cells to build from.

If I don't win on that cause. I have my 2 6v's to fall back on. Since I have till Spring to choose.. Time for deeper research. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Pod People Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 2018 at 6:21am
We have traveled into Canada 3 times with the pod. We were never asked about batteries.They asked about weapons, alcohol, fruits and vegetables, passports and vehicle registration and insurance.

From what we saw, I don.t think you will have any problems with batteries.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ParPod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2018 at 4:29pm
  Have been back and forth across the border numerous times with the Pod - never been asked about batteries.  We've had USCBP in the Pod twice - Michigan and North Dakota - and both times they were far more concerned about various food things.  Insofar as CBSA coming back home they've never asked or shown much interest in the battery box or what kind of battery is inside.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Olddawgsrule Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 2018 at 7:39am
Thank you all! Very good info.
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