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Lithium battery?

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Printed Date: 08 May 2024 at 10:24am
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Topic: Lithium battery?
Posted By: Olddawgsrule
Subject: Lithium battery?
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2018 at 8:18am
I'm going to pickup my R-Pod in spring and researching through my battery choices. Top on my list is going with 2-6v 230ah batteries. Next would be building a Li-ion battery pack.

Costs are one thing, but what strikes me most is traveling across borders with what will be considered a hazardous material. As I currently understand Lithium used under a 4 cell configuration is not within the hazardous material definition. 

Has anyone here made the switch to lithium? And the big question: Have you traveled cross border with it?


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https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJduGeZNFgtptH67leItRFQ - Byways no Highways
2017 Tacoma
http://tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=72408 - Truck Camper Build
2004 F150 My Overlander



Replies:
Posted By: Tars Tarkas
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2018 at 9:44am
Not sure this is helpful at all, but we have crossed into Canada with our Pod and there was absolutely no question or mention of what kind of batteries we had on board. (We didn't have Li-ion.) 

Given the cost of these things, I'm curious how one rationalizes their use.  I see some advantages to them of course, but my cost/benefit analysis is coming up short. Smile

TT


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2010 176
FJ Cruiser


Posted By: Olddawgsrule
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2018 at 10:58am
Cost depends on your use vs and how you go about it. I have the ability to build my own. My cost would be less than $500 all in.

Now if I resource my 18650's, that cost can be $150... I also have a source that not many have. Indeed 120 of them to reach 'my' goal. I'm at 20 now.. long way to go..

My concern now is legality. 

If not asked about battery, have you been asked about hazardous substances? I've yet to cross border with  camper..


-------------
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJduGeZNFgtptH67leItRFQ - Byways no Highways
2017 Tacoma
http://tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=72408 - Truck Camper Build
2004 F150 My Overlander


Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2018 at 12:04pm
Originally posted by Tars Tarkas

Not sure this is helpful at all, but we have crossed into Canada with our Pod and there was absolutely no question or mention of what kind of batteries we had on board. (We didn't have Li-ion.) 

Given the cost of these things, I'm curious how one rationalizes their use.  I see some advantages to them of course, but my cost/benefit analysis is coming up short. Smile

TT
Excellent point. Right this minute, Lithium is going to cost more on a watt-hour per dollar basis. However, there are several mitigating factors. First, lead acid can generally only be discharged to ~~ 50% of their full charge. Lithium can go much,much lower. I haven't seen any numbers lately, but I'm pretty sure you can go all the way down to 5 or 10 % SOC and still be good. The second factor is the number of charge cycles. Lead acid are good for maybe about 1,000-1,500 charge cycles, and lithium can double that number. Third factor is the weight/watt. Lithium will be quite a bit lighter than lead acid.

Once solid state batteries come to market in the next 5 years or so, we may see a whole new ball game.


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bp
2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River
2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost


Posted By: Olddawgsrule
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2018 at 12:53pm
You are hitting all the main points of converting over!

cost is the greatest! That is the point/issue to be over-come.

My Solar work has show me you can't beat a 6v battery (doubled up) vs a single 12v. Lithium as I'm seeing goes very close to 100% capacity. 

Done properly, and worth repeating, done properly, Lithium based batteries are very safe to use. With no maintenance required.

I do not suggest everyone builds their own without researching. I also do not recommend just buying a pre-built system. Even Telsa's system would take a pro to fix an issue and that would cost you thousands.. I had seen several direct cost units at half their price, but again, a pro to fix.

'If' you do go Lithium, I do suggest you learn as much as you can about them. Once there, build your own. You will save $$$ and know how to repair if required.

Back to the point of the post...

Has anyone crossing borders with your Pod been asked if traveling with Hazardous Materials?



Originally posted by GlueGuy

Originally posted by Tars Tarkas

Not sure this is helpful at all, but we have crossed into Canada with our Pod and there was absolutely no question or mention of what kind of batteries we had on board. (We didn't have Li-ion.) 

Given the cost of these things, I'm curious how one rationalizes their use.  I see some advantages to them of course, but my cost/benefit analysis is coming up short. Smile

TT
Excellent point. Right this minute, Lithium is going to cost more on a watt-hour per dollar basis. However, there are several mitigating factors. First, lead acid can generally only be discharged to ~~ 50% of their full charge. Lithium can go much,much lower. I haven't seen any numbers lately, but I'm pretty sure you can go all the way down to 5 or 10 % SOC and still be good. The second factor is the number of charge cycles. Lead acid are good for maybe about 1,000-1,500 charge cycles, and lithium can double that number. Third factor is the weight/watt. Lithium will be quite a bit lighter than lead acid.

Once solid state batteries come to market in the next 5 years or so, we may see a whole new ball game.


-------------
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJduGeZNFgtptH67leItRFQ - Byways no Highways
2017 Tacoma
http://tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=72408 - Truck Camper Build
2004 F150 My Overlander


Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2018 at 2:40pm
Originally posted by Olddawgsrule

I do not suggest everyone builds their own without researching. I also do not recommend just buying a pre-built system. Even Telsa's system would take a pro to fix an issue and that would cost you thousands.. I had seen several direct cost units at half their price, but again, a pro to fix.
Now that you mention it, I was surprised by the base cost of the Tesla PowerWall. Not that it was cheaper than a lead-acid system (it was still more expensive). The surprise was that it wasn't THAT much more expensive. In fact, when you consider the advantages, it could be argued as being quite competitive.


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bp
2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River
2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost


Posted By: Olddawgsrule
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2018 at 4:26pm
Marketing prices GG.. Marketing..

It could be much more affordable, but right now no one will move from the current pricing. Even China has priced accordingly, which surprises me. I can buy their system under another name for $3k vs the 5.5K Telsa offers.
Problem being we can't be certain of construction... No one yet knows who makes their unit.

There is anew version of the 18650 coming out.This should bring the costs down a tad, but don't expect any big.. The demand is still too high.

Heck, you used to be able to get used 18650's for free. Now they're auctioned off at crazy prices of Ebay..

I say research, understand before you dive in. Far too many bad sellers out there selling crap with huge claims. Know your source.

I'm testing what could be a manufacturer of the Big Boys. I'll have them in 2 weeks and test them. If correct, I'll post where and what. Was lead there by a good source. We'll see soon how good. 

I really like the idea of Lithium. I'm looking for the best source of cells to build from.

If I don't win on that cause. I have my 2 6v's to fall back on. Since I have till Spring to choose.. Time for deeper research. 


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https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJduGeZNFgtptH67leItRFQ - Byways no Highways
2017 Tacoma
http://tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=72408 - Truck Camper Build
2004 F150 My Overlander


Posted By: Pod People
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2018 at 6:21am
We have traveled into Canada 3 times with the pod. We were never asked about batteries.They asked about weapons, alcohol, fruits and vegetables, passports and vehicle registration and insurance.

From what we saw, I don.t think you will have any problems with batteries.
Vann


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Vann & Laura 2015 RPod 179
https://postimg.cc/0zwKrfB9">


Posted By: ParPod
Date Posted: 02 Feb 2018 at 4:29pm
  Have been back and forth across the border numerous times with the Pod - never been asked about batteries.  We've had USCBP in the Pod twice - Michigan and North Dakota - and both times they were far more concerned about various food things.  Insofar as CBSA coming back home they've never asked or shown much interest in the battery box or what kind of battery is inside.

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Bob&Margaret
2017 179
2016 Toyota 4Runner
2 sets of Golf Clubs


Posted By: Olddawgsrule
Date Posted: 03 Feb 2018 at 7:39am
Thank you all! Very good info.

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https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJduGeZNFgtptH67leItRFQ - Byways no Highways
2017 Tacoma
http://tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=72408 - Truck Camper Build
2004 F150 My Overlander


Posted By: RobnCari
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2018 at 9:55pm
Isn't gasoline a hazardous material. Certain states won't let you pump your own.

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2006 Toyota Tacoma 4WD AC
2018 RP 179


Posted By: Olddawgsrule
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2018 at 4:22pm
Originally posted by RobnCari

Isn't gasoline a hazardous material. Certain states won't let you pump your own.

First I see you pull with a Tacoma! I will be as well! Work good for you?

Back on topic: Yes, gasoline is. So if you carry 'Jerry cans" you will be looked at. You're allowed so much (would have to look it up again) and same for the propane we carry. 

My concern is tongue weight so I will carry an additional propane bottle in the bed of the truck. This is allowed, as I've read.

Li-ion batteries are still kinda new. Considered hazardous if not done correctly. Since still new, was curious if those using have been asked as of yet. So far, I'm seeing no one has been.




-------------
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJduGeZNFgtptH67leItRFQ - Byways no Highways
2017 Tacoma
http://tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=72408 - Truck Camper Build
2004 F150 My Overlander


Posted By: amnman
Date Posted: 27 May 2018 at 7:07pm
Today, I just converted my Lead acid battery system on my R-pod 171 to lithium battery. 

Components:
1 Battleborn Lithium battery 12v 100aH $949 (w/ free shipping)
1 Progressive Dynamics Converter modification for my WFCO power system $235 (includes shipping)
2 ANL fuse holders $14 ($11 for a 10-pack of 100A fuses)
2 24" 5AWG cables with ring terminals (5/16") already installed $11
1 Group 31 battery box.

Took me 1/2 a day to install. Longest period was installing the converter mod. You replace the DC board and swap the wiring/fuses to the new DC board as well as the battery cables. Then remove the converter power circuit board and replace it with the new one. 

The fuse/fuse holders and cables are attached to the battery. The cable from the RV are attached to the fuse blocks for additional safety. 100ah Lithium battery can send 200 amps for 30 seconds, enough time to start a fire with a short, so the fuses will give at 100 amps.

So I guess you are wondering why I did this? Well for something simple as "creature comforts" My ice machine and 1Kw pure-wave inverter could kill a 100aH lead acid battery w/ solar charging in less than 3 hours (voltage alarm goes off) before filling the basket.  

I setup the lithium battery (charged) with the same inverter and ice maker, I can fill the basket TWICE and still have power left over. Took my 200w solar charger and reprogrammed it for Lithium. The charger is a Victron MPPT 75/15 using battery clamps for a battery connection. After peaking the solar panels every 1/2 hour, the solar system recharged that battery in 6 hours.

So I bought all the other components needed to install this in my R-pod and the rest is history.



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Be responsible with technology, or technology will make you irresponsible. ~ Me


Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 28 May 2018 at 12:14pm
That's an interesting mod. I think in the next year or so the cost of lithium batteries will drop significantly, so you may be ahead of the curve.

I'm curious. A standard LiON battery voltage is ~~ 3.6 volts. 3 cells in series would get you 10.8 volts, but 4 cells in series would get you 14.4 volts. I wonder what the idle voltage of your battery is? Or do you know how many cells your battery is?

I'm also curious what percent discharge your lithium battery can handle? Typical lead-acid is only 50% discharge (wet cells). How low (percent-wise) can your lithium handle?


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bp
2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River
2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost


Posted By: amnman
Date Posted: 04 Jun 2018 at 8:59pm
It is a 4 cell battery.... The standing voltage is 13.9 after the converter stops charging (14.4 when charging). The voltage after running my ice maker was 13.5. My water pump works better... more stable pressure. All the 12v systems seem to be fine and the lights didn't dim when the ice maker's compressor turned on. The battery can be run down to 90%, but the voltage will drop quickly after this.... so 95% is usable. Discharge rate is 1C (100Ah) for 55 minutes... but this discharge rate will shortens its life.

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Be responsible with technology, or technology will make you irresponsible. ~ Me


Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 05 Jun 2018 at 10:22am
Originally posted by amnman

It is a 4 cell battery.... The standing voltage is 13.9 after the converter stops charging (14.4 when charging). The voltage after running my ice maker was 13.5. My water pump works better... more stable pressure. All the 12v systems seem to be fine and the lights didn't dim when the ice maker's compressor turned on. The battery can be run down to 90%, but the voltage will drop quickly after this.... so 95% is usable. Discharge rate is 1C (100Ah) for 55 minutes... but this discharge rate will shortens its life.
That's good info. That means that a 100AH Lithium will get you something in the neighborhood of 1250 watt-hours of power, whereas a 100AH lead acid will only get around 600 watt-hours (lower voltage and less discharge tolerance). What it means to me is that a single 100AH Lithium has almost as much power as a pair of 6V GC batteries.


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bp
2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River
2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost


Posted By: amnman
Date Posted: 21 Aug 2018 at 10:02pm
Last a lot longer than those GC batteries.... life wise.... so cost goes down significantly.

So far my battery has made boondocking so much more enjoyable. My solar system works great as well.


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Be responsible with technology, or technology will make you irresponsible. ~ Me



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