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StephenH View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: 50 or 30 amp
    Posted: 02 Feb 2019 at 11:00am
That's for sure! I accidentally crossed the terminals on a 12V battery once with a wrench. There was a sizeable spark and a chunk taken out of the wrench where it instantly became hot enough to melt the metal.There is a reason DC arc welding is the most common. https://sciencing.com/difference-between-ac-dc-welding-6021349.html
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2019 at 5:10pm
Yes furpod, 

I fully understand that you have not found a case in the RVIA data where a dogbone has been found to be the direct cause of an RV fire.  Again, there is a good reason why the NEC requires and the manufacturers apply a warning label not to apply 50A to a 30A trailer connector. And, again, because there has not been a case documented doesn't mean that there hasn't actually been one, and it also doesn't mean that it is a non issue. Obviously, the code authorities and FR think that it is. 

I'm totally fine though if you say that in your view it is worth the risk. In my view it is not, and there is an easy way to address the problem and truly make it a non issue if someone wants to. 'Nuff said. 

Re 12Vdc electrical system safety, I do agree that is an important subject and merits the creation of a separate thread. I'll be happy to start one unless someone else wants to. 



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2019 at 6:38pm
When we do risk assessments and decide something is or is not worth the risk, one off the things we always need to bear in mind is that if sh#* happens and someone gets hurt, we need to step up and take full responsibility for it turning out badly.  Even when we take personal risks, there are always others to consider.  If I choose to go sky diving and splatter myself on the tarmac, it isn't just me who loses [and I'll never know the difference anyway].  My wife, my children, grandchildren, friends and my creditors [enemies] are all affected and it isn't likely to be in a favorable way.  

If I choose to take the risk of using a 30/50 A dogbone and start a fire like the Camp Fire in Paradise, CA, well, I better be ready to step up and pay the consequences.  Sadly, in some instances we choose to take risks that turn out to hurt someone else and are unwilling or unable to compensate those whom we hurt.  Then it's time to blame those dirty ambulance chasing lawyers.

And yes, I realize we take risks every day as mundane as going to the bathroom at night to deciding to drive 100 mph in a school zone or worse.  It is impossible to avoid taking risks in life, but by the same token it is impossible to avoid the moral imperative that we should accept responsibility for the consequences of our actions, including the risks we choose to take.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2019 at 9:38pm
I'm probably going to regret posting this, but here goes anyway.

I'm sure everything that's been said in this thread so far is true and correct, but maybe it's stretching things a lttle too far to compare using a 50/30 dogbone to driving 100 mph through a school zone or saying that I might be responsible for burning down 14.000 homes if I use a dogbone.  

I lobbied, mildly, for the continuation of this thread after it was shut down for beating dead equines, but there is a mostly small group here, who have been just about the only particpants in this thread, except maybe the OP.  I gotta say, I think we all know what everyone's position is on the subject.  I guess I'm just trying to say that it might be nice if we didn't try to keep hitting each other over the head with just one more point. 

I just went to the effort to tally things up.  If I counted correctly this is the 94th post on this subject.  The OP posted twice, once with the original question and then just a few posts later to thank everyone for their replies.  Seven people posted once, mostly long ago.  Everyone else has posted multiple times, some more than 15 or 20 times.

I'm totally fine with this thread dying a natural death, even if it lingers another 50 years but it does seem to me that one of the dynamics going on here is that there are only a few people participating in this thread anymore.  Aside from the fact that there probably really isn't much useful to add, I think it would be helpful if we realize what a small audience there really is here.  I've been around the internet long enough that I have pretty tough skin, and I know this wasn't really anyone's intention, but when it gets to the point that someone basicallysays you're going straight to hell if you use a dogbone (running over kids in a school zone or killing 79 people by causing a forest fire will probably put you on a shortcut to hell, I assume), well, just my opinion, maybe it's past time to give it a rest and move on.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 2019 at 7:40am
As I posted ONCE, long ago at the semi beginning of this thread, I almost always use a 30 amp to 50 amp adapter. The 3 prong 30 amp plugs into the back side, and there are 4 male prongs on the front side "converting" my 30 to 50. I watched this post go back and forth about it being perfectly ok, or being the scorn of satan. Without "opinion" being part of this, can we answer if there is any "proof" of something being wrong with this. I really woulf like to know if I am "truley" doing something dangerous or wrong.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 2019 at 7:57am
I don't think anyone is saying that you're going to hell if you use a dogbone. 

I'll let lostagain speak for himself but for folks living in the far west the last couple of years electrical fires have been a really big deal.  He may be thinking about the cause of the Tubbs fire in 2017 which up until the Camp fire this year was the largest in CA history (22 deaths, 5600 buildings, 37000 acres). 

A report recently came out that that fire was started not by the now bankrupt utility PG&E but by privately owned and maintained power equipment connected to PG&E gear on private property, which had not been installed and maintained by a licensed electrical contractor. The details of what was and wasn't actually done haven't been made public yet and maybe never will be, but regardless, the folks involved in that must feel like they've already gone straight to hell. I will hazard a guess that they will most likely be defendants in litigation for decades if they live that long. 

So I took lostagain's post as a voice of caution meant with the best of intentions. 

As far as this thread is concerned if you notice my very first post was to refer the OP to the previous thread on this subject. I will however continue to post if I read statements which incorrectly conclude that there is no fire risk associated with connecting 30A rated circuits to a 50A supply and that its OK to ignore warning labels on your trailer without considering the ramifications. Its not that I foolishly think that I will change the opinions of any of the few stubborn old guys still following this thread, I'm one of those too so I know how hard that is.  

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions but not to their own facts. So as a professional in this field I will continue to try to convey the facts and separate those from opinion.  I don't want to wake up one morning and find that one of our new member's families burned up after making this connection and I could have at least clarified the facts for them but I didn't bother to take the minute or two required to post. 

  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 2019 at 8:20am
By all means, post away.  I'm not sure whose mind you think you might sway at this point; there are only about 8 of us, all regulars, most, if not all, Senior Members, participating anymore. 

And I'm sure Lostagain's intentions were good, as I know yours are, but comparing dogbone users to people who drive through school zones at 100 mph or saying they might kill 79 people and burn down 14,000 homes, is, intended or otherwise, in my opinion, one very tiny step away from the fulfillment of Godwin's Law.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 2019 at 8:34am
mjlrpod, 

I like that you are asking to separate facts from opinions. Like many things in life though knowing the facts doesn't necessarily result in a decision between black and white. 

The facts are that when you use a 50A to 30A dogbone you are leaving the conductors between the output of your dogbone and the 30A circuit breaker in your trailer panel (the power cord and the internal trailer wiring) unprotected against certain types of electrical fault conditions. The result could be an electrical fire. Leaving these conductors unprotected from those fault conditions is not allowed under the National Electrical Code which is why you have a label next to your trailer connector warning you not to do that.

If your standard of proof is that there are actual cases where this has resulted in fires than it is most likely that does not exist, as the probability of occurrence of these particular fault conditions is low and the reporting of such things is spotty. 

At this point your decision to use the dogbone or not becomes a matter of opinion. I think you have three choices:  accept the risk of a fire from these faults in order to have the convenience of using the dogbone, don't use the dogbone and accept the inconvenience in order to avoid this fire risk (and/or to avoid violating your warning label instructions if such things bother you), or spend $ to add in a 30A circuit breaker after the dogbone to eliminate this risk.  Note that options 2 and 3 would not magically remove all fire risk, just this particular one. 

I for one don't think satan has anything to do with this and am OK with any of the above choices. 

Hope that helps.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 2019 at 8:54am
Tars, I guess I have to weigh in on this.  I was not comparing the use of a 50/30A dogbone to driving 100 in a school zone.  The point was we all take risks, some mundane, some extraordinarily foolish but when we do so we have to take personal responsibility for what we do.  Some risks are so minimal that the chance of hurting someone is nearly non-existent, while others present dangers that approach engaging in reckless disregard for the safety of others, indeed a criminal act.  

I have read all the posts here and have learned a lot about not only the consequences of a dead short when using a 50/30A dogbone, but also the consequences of heating the conductors up by putting too much of a load on the circuit.  I also note that FR and other manufactures caution against this type of amperage conversion.  One cannot say it is risk free.  The real issue, and one that hasn't been answered here is how small is the risk?  If I get into an elevator I know I have about a 1 in 3M chance of sustaining a medically treatable injury and I chose to take the risk.  When I boarded the Avianca flight to Colombia a week and a half ago, I knew I had about a 1 in 350K chance of getting hurt.  Here, we don't have information to assess risk probability.  All we can say is that it is theoretically possible.

I understand people using the dogbone and someone like StephenH has some pretty darn good reasons to use it to run his CPAP machine and possibly other medical devices.  Each person hast to make his own risk assessment and pray for the best outcome.  My comment about personal responsibility is that if you make a conscious choice to take a risk, you have the moral imperative to accept responsibility for the consequences, even if it bankrupts you.  Sadly, in our culture, we have moved far away from taking responsibility for our conduct and are always looking to blame others for the consequences of our acts. 

Bottom line, if you chose to take the risk, by all means do it.  But in the very unlikely event it turns out badly, don't whine about having to compensate those who got hurt and don't say it was someone else's fault. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 2019 at 8:59am
TT, I'm not actually trying to sway anybody, but the audience I'm interested in getting the facts out to are new members who might unbelievably perhaps have the stamina to take the time to read through this thread. The 8 ppl participating have long since made up their minds about this, in most if not all cases well before the thread was even started. 

I had to look up Godwin's law. I've heard folks in the electrical industry grumble about "Code Nazis" (folks who write and/or defend the NEC) before so I guess I could easily be accused of thatLOL
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