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bhamster ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: 19 May 2011 Location: Washington Online Status: Offline Posts: 165 |
![]() Posted: 21 Aug 2012 at 8:00pm |
Here's the flat version:
It looks like I still get 6-7 even if I just laid it on the ground. It definitely depends on the campsite, but it's been working fine for me even in the forests of the northwest. Another factor to consider is that appliances that run during the day (while there's sun) will pull all or part of their current from the solar charger directly and avoid the efficiency losses from charging/discharging the battery. In the AGM case this could increase efficiency by up to 10% while the sun is shining. |
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techntrek ![]() Admin Group - pHp ![]() ![]() Joined: 29 Jul 2009 Location: MD Online Status: Offline Posts: 9062 |
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You definitely get more sun by moving the panels throughout the day, but many RV systems have fixed panels, often mounted horizontal on the roof which is far from optimal (below the 4.5 I quoted). Even if the system is designed with portable panels like Walt's many people won't move them at all (other things to do while camping) or enough to make much difference. Permanent systems - including the ones used to gather the data used in that map - are placed optimally to get sun for most or all of the day and often camping sites aren't. I'm just trying to present realistic numbers. Glad to see you'll get more bang for your buck! If anyone is interested in getting more input here is a great forum I'm a member of: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/forum.php |
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Footslogger03 ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 21 Jul 2011 Location: Laramie, WY Online Status: Offline Posts: 362 |
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All math and laws of science aside ...I've paid my dues and decided a generator was the right thing for me.
That being said, I am a technical guy and understand the process so I love staying informed and truly benefit from the discussions like this one. 'Slogger |
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Livin' the Dream ...'Slogger
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bhamster ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: 19 May 2011 Location: Washington Online Status: Offline Posts: 165 |
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That's an awesome chart, thanks for the link. I looked into the source of the data and it's assuming a fixed panel averaged throughout the year. Luckily they have a handy calculator on their website: I put in Average July with a two-axis plate (since I rotate and tilt my panel during the day), and it came up with this: In my region that's 8-10 "sun hours" per day, even more than I thought. June and August were about the same: 7-8. Since we only camp May-September it works out well for us. As for the line-losses, check out this calculator: My configuration shows 0.45% loss, so pretty insignificant (0.1Ah less).
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Camper Bob ![]() podders Helping podders - pHp ![]() Joined: 26 Sep 2011 Location: Portland Oregon Online Status: Offline Posts: 913 |
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Wow. Did anyone else understand all that? I'm sure your both right, but to us mere mortals, that was mind dazzling. Glad we have some technowizards aboard. Safe Travels.
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Camper Bob and Camper Sue
Gracie the Wonder Dog (12 LB. Mini Dachshund) 2013 Rpod 171HRE(ORPod) 2016 Lance 1685 2015 Nissan Pathfinder |
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Camper Bob ![]() podders Helping podders - pHp ![]() Joined: 26 Sep 2011 Location: Portland Oregon Online Status: Offline Posts: 913 |
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Wow. Did anyone else really understand that. I'm sure your both right, but to us mere mortals, that was mind dazzling. Glad we have some technowizards on board. Safe Travels.
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Camper Bob and Camper Sue
Gracie the Wonder Dog (12 LB. Mini Dachshund) 2013 Rpod 171HRE(ORPod) 2016 Lance 1685 2015 Nissan Pathfinder |
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techntrek ![]() Admin Group - pHp ![]() ![]() Joined: 29 Jul 2009 Location: MD Online Status: Offline Posts: 9062 |
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I only have a minute here before I run out the door (to go home), but I understand your nitpickyness about amps vs. amp-hour. Just trying to be clearer to average Joe. :-)
As for your system efficiency, that adds up to 72% system efficiency not including line losses (which always exists even with properly sized wiring), not too far from my 60% which includes a small fudge factor to account for things like increased losses in the battery as it ages.
Take a look and you'll see that my 4.5 number is correct. It is slightly higher in the southwest and slightly lower near the Canadian border, but in general it is right. That number takes into account many, many factors to give you a true yearly average.
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bhamster ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: 19 May 2011 Location: Washington Online Status: Offline Posts: 165 |
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techntrek: These are important considerations, but I disagree with the numbers:
First of all (sorry to be nitpicky ![]() On to the numbers themselves: Maybe you only get 4 hours of ideal sun, but there is still a full day of light that is generating a useful amount of electricity (even on a cloudy day). I would argue that the total amount of light hitting the panel during the entire day is equivalent to about 8 hours of full sunlight. You will need to re-position your panel occasionally to achieve this though. As for efficiency, I lose about 12% from a hot panel (check STC vs PTC) and 8 percent from the charger, so I get 80% of the panel rating out of the charger. After the charger our numbers will be different because I'm using an AGM battery (which I would highly recommend for solar use). Self-discharge is almost 0, and internal resistance is around 2%. Charging efficiency for an AGM is around 90% at room temperature. Also, if you're losing energy to line losses, you just need thicker cables. So, the overall calculation is: 3.75A * 0.8 (panel and charger loss) * 0.9 (AGM loss) * 8 hours = 21.6 Ah 21.6Ah - 7Ah (LP detector) - 6Ah (fridge) - 0.09Ah (self-discharge) = 8.51Ah net charge. That might not seem like much, but that's equivalent to (separately, not cumulatively): water pump: 2 hours furnace: 3 hours
led light: 40 hours That's way more than I need to use in a day, so my solar charger is able to bring me back up to 100% every day. In fact, once it goes into maintenance mode (desulfation) then I plug in my phone charger and a couple duracell usb batteries to try and capture some of the surplus energy.
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Podsible Dream ![]() podders Helping podders - pHp ![]() ![]() Joined: 03 Dec 2010 Location: Hightstown, NJ Online Status: Offline Posts: 571 |
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Thanks for the lesson, Doug.
I'll monitor the system and se what I need to do next. I did get a watt meter from RCA-electronics that I will install next. It was part of this operation, but I haven't done it yet. As it goes between the battery and the load, and I want it inside, I have to do some planning for the wiring install. The lid indeed flops all the way down. I've got some bead chain in the basement somewhere to make a cover retainer. It will then double as a holder for cleaning supplies! BTW the lock and key set on my shower box is the same number as the locks on the rear pass thrus.... |
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Chris and Walt
'10 RP-171 'Free Spirit' '13 Dodge Durango Crew 5.7 L Hemi V8 |
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techntrek ![]() Admin Group - pHp ![]() ![]() Joined: 29 Jul 2009 Location: MD Online Status: Offline Posts: 9062 |
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All excellent upgrades. You'll run into the same thing I did with my outside shower mod - since the cover is right above the furnace exhaust, you might look into adding a small chain which will prevent the cover from extending beyond 90 degrees (parallel to the ground). If it falls in front of the exhaust it could melt or catch on fire. I haven't done this to mine yet, I only think about it in-camp.
Something to consider with small solar systems - and this probably explains Footslogger's frustration with his - is lead-acid batteries will loose about an amp per day just in self-discharge. The solar system must overcome that loss PLUS anything you actually use each day. On top of that, you can expect to only get about 80% of the solar panel's rating - on a good day. Those ratings indicate best-case scenarios, like very cold temperatures with snow reflecting the sun. Add to that you can expect to loose up to 50% of the actual generated output in line losses, charger inefficiency, battery inefficiency, inverter inefficiency, etc. That number might be closer to 40% loss if you are using 12 volts directly and not using an inverter. Finally, most areas of the US get about 4 "solar insolation" hours per day on average over a year. That number will be slightly higher over the summer when RV systems will be in use, say 4.5 hours. Many people think "hey, its light outside 14 hours over the summer" so they think they'll get far more total amps from the system than they really will. You have to account for the low angle of the sun, clouds, rain, etc.
So, a 45 watt system = 3.75 amp-hour * .80 = 3 amp-hour (on a good day)
Subtract 40%, 3 amp-hour * .60 = 1.8 amp-hour
4.5 hours * 1.8 amp-hour = 8.1 amps per day
Subtract self-discharge = 8.1 - 1 = 7.1 amps per day
As long as you use less than 7.1 amps per day AND you get full sun every day, then you will charge your battery - some, not much. You will use more than 7 amps per day even with just the LP detector (2.3 amps per day on one model I just looked up) and the "brains" of the fridge on LPG mode (6 amps per day). Add an hour or three of lights and water pump use and you will be way above 7 amps per day.
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