My New TV - R-pod Owners Forum

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lostagain

Senior Member

Joined: 06 Sep 2016
Location: Quaker Hill, CT
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2595

Topic: My New TV
Posted: 31 Aug 2020 at 7:05pm

No vehicle tax system is going to satisfy everyone. No one is going to be happy if s/he has to pay the real cost of his/her use of the road, especially when the external costs [the real costs] are calculated into the equation. We all want a free lunch that the the other guy pays for. And as long as one is protecting his/her own interests, no amount of public funds is too much provided some other sucker pays.

Never leave footprints behind.
Fred & Maria Kearney
Sonoma 167RB
Our Pod 172
2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost

GlueGuy

Senior Member

Joined: 15 May 2017
Location: N. California
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2702

Posted: 31 Aug 2020 at 2:21pm

Here in CA, the EV "tax", I think, is about $100/year. Depending on how much fuel your ICE vehicle uses, that could be more or less than. In our case, it's less, but I'm driving a truck.

The consensus that I've read is that it's felt to be too low, but tracking mileage has big issues in several respects, including that some of that mileage might not be in state.

Clearly, they use and contribute to the wear and required maintenance, but here is no easy solution so far.

bp
2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River
2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost

offgrid

Senior Member

Joined: 23 Jul 2018
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5290

Posted: 31 Aug 2020 at 12:58pm

That article only listed the states that tax EV drivers MORE than they tax ICE drivers. Looks like there are 26 states that currently tax EV's something additional, so I guess that means 8 tax EV's something extra but LESS than ICE's, ans 24 more that don't yet impose any additional taxes. Also, EV buyers pay more for their vehicles up front, because of battery costs, in exchange for lower operating costs. So, they pay higher sales and excise taxes into the state coffers.

And no, I don't agree that its fair, as long as the fossil fuel industry continues to be heavily subsidized directly and its external costs ignored. There is an organization called ALEC that is driving much of the state EV tax legislation, I'll give you just one guess where their funding comes from. LOL

Any discussion of taxation will inevitably become political in nature, all tax structures benefit some individuals or corporate entities more than others, as we see in the disparity between how the various states are implementing this. There really isn't any way to do it that will be seen as "fair" to everyone. I'm done on this topic at this point, not because I don't feel its important, but because we are beginning to step outside the forum rules.

1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold

podwerkz

Senior Member

Joined: 11 Mar 2019
Location: Texas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 966

Posted: 31 Aug 2020 at 12:04pm

I counted less than 18 existing, but in my mind, this is good news....sorta.

As I said, EV owners need to pay their equitable share, but it should be mileage based...and the technology is there, although some might argue it is intrusive. I get that.

My solution would be to impose a tax on tires that are installed new on EVs. Tires are a consumable.

If a set of tires has an estimated life of say, 30,000 miles, just pay the per-mile tax based on 30,000 miles. It would be a one time fee, similar to an excise tax.

Those who drive that kind of mileage in a year will pay it again for the next set of tires, and those who only drive, lets say, 5000 miles a year, well, they will pay a lot less, per year.

Seems fair to me.

r･pod 171 gone but not forgotten!

offgrid

Senior Member

Joined: 23 Jul 2018
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5290

Posted: 31 Aug 2020 at 11:29am

If you're running PbA batteries in an EV the battery life cycle cost is more than the electricity cost. With Li batteries its roughly the same, maybe a little less.

Just found this Consumer Reports article. Looks like 18 states now have road taxes on EV's that are HIGHER than the average auto gas tax in that state, some over twice as high. And if you think that's not politically motivated, look at which states they are.

https://www.consumerreports.org/hybrids-evs/more-states-hitting-electric-vehicle-owners-with-high-fees/

1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold

podwerkz

Senior Member

Joined: 11 Mar 2019
Location: Texas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 966

Posted: 31 Aug 2020 at 10:55am

Yeah no doubt in my mind that trucks cause more wear on roads and bridges, just like a 747 landing causes more wear to a runway than a Piper Cub.

But also, roads and highways and bridges are generally built by the lowest bidder and there is often no warranty of any kind offered or required.

Hey, my e-bike is not licensed, insured, taxed, titled, or registered, and I don't pay a penny to the state or feds to operate it on the roads and streets, but I can ride it on almost any road around here. I doubt I will take it up the entrance ramp to the interstate, but I could, if I wanted to risk life and limb...

I figured out the pure electrical cost to operate it one time...and it varies widely depending on a lot of factors, (pedal assist level, hills, winds, etc) but I got an average result one time of about 4 miles per penny...not counting maintenance, tires, tubes, etc.

Some e-bikes do a lot better, some, not as good. Like I said, it varies.

And this is ON topic....I use the e-bike to pull a trailer! A little Schwinn Pet Trailer...the pooch loves it!

r･pod 171 gone but not forgotten!

offgrid

Senior Member

Joined: 23 Jul 2018
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5290

Posted: 31 Aug 2020 at 9:54am

If you're not towing or hauling I think the current range of ev's, around 250-300 miles, is fine for most folks. I've made exactly one trip this year so far that pushed that distance, and there would have been a couple of level 3 chargers I could have used. Even if that had taken a whole hour I would still have been far ahead of the time I've spent at gas stations so far this year.

But absolutely, if you tow and only have one vehicle, then its not practical, yet.

1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold

StephenH

podders Helping podders - pHp

Joined: 29 Nov 2015
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6417

Posted: 31 Aug 2020 at 9:34am

If we needed a second vehicle, I would certainly consider an electric one for local use. I'm not opposed to them. However, since my wife does not drive (has never had a license), we only need one vehicle, so it has to be one that will be suitable for long-distance towing.

StephenH
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,...

ouR escaPOD mods
Former RPod 179
Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS

lostagain

Senior Member

Joined: 06 Sep 2016
Location: Quaker Hill, CT
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2595

Posted: 31 Aug 2020 at 9:32am

Maybe fuel taxes should be based on the total cost of a vehicle (from raw materials, to road wear and tear, to social costs (like cancer from air pollution), to environmental damage). Everyone seems to have his/her favorite, criticizing alternatives and ignoring one's favorite's flaws. The whole thing seems like an exercise in arguing about rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

Never leave footprints behind.
Fred & Maria Kearney
Sonoma 167RB
Our Pod 172
2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost

offgrid

Senior Member

Joined: 23 Jul 2018
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5290

Posted: 31 Aug 2020 at 9:28am

Yep, its easy to get wrapped around an axle on taxes and subsidies especially when something doesn't seem fair in direct comparison. But if you dig deeper there are pretty much always "hidden" subsidies that the incumbent technology gets that aren't at all obvious at first glance. Hard to tease the whole thing apart.

Then there is the advantage that an incumbent technology always has because the investment in it has been made and depreciated long since. That's where the politics comes in, are the benefits of the new technology considered valuable enough to give it a helping hand to get started?

Unlike things like smart phones which are little and cheap, energy and transportation technologies require massive investments and are very slow to change. I started working in photovoltaics in 1979 and its only the past few years that solar has become a significant energy player - 40 years.

There is a plug in Prius (Prius Prime) but it only has an ev range of 25 miles, on a good day. Started out with only 11 mile ev range. Kind silly I think, but I guess if you're only using it to go shopping around town then maybe that works.

I doubt a gen 1 Prius could get 60 at 60. I have a gen 3 which is supposed to be more efficient and I would probably get 55 at 60 mph, if I were to drive that slow. I'm generally at 70 around here on the freeways (which is slower than most folks) which gives me 50-ish, pretty much the same fuel economy as in town or on a windy rural road. I think my average since purchase is around 48.

Re the battery, its actually really small in the std. Prius, 1.3 kwh. But its Nickel-metal hydride so it can take tons of cycling. if you are comfortable working with batteries and high voltage dc then it's pretty cheap to repair, generally only a cell or two needs to be replaced, I'm at 10 yearn and 150K miles and my battery is still performing fine so far....knock wood....

On heavy truck road taxes, I've heard the argument that the vast majority of road wear is from heavy vehicles. Don't know if its true or not. Should I not pay any road taxes because I don't wear out the roads? I pay taxes for the local school district and I haven't had a kid in school for 25 years.

It would make more sense for me to pay the road tax for all those trucks, I use that service every day in the form of the goods and services I buy, even if I stayed home never drove and bought everything via Amazon. I guess as far as proliferation of electric trucks is concerned we can wait and see, as you say its not an issue at this point.

1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold

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lostagain Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 06 Sep 2016 Location: Quaker Hill, CT Online Status: Offline Posts: 2595	Topic: My New TV Posted: 31 Aug 2020 at 7:05pm
	No vehicle tax system is going to satisfy everyone. No one is going to be happy if s/he has to pay the real cost of his/her use of the road, especially when the external costs [the real costs] are calculated into the equation. We all want a free lunch that the the other guy pays for. And as long as one is protecting his/her own interests, no amount of public funds is too much provided some other sucker pays.
	Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost

GlueGuy Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 15 May 2017 Location: N. California Online Status: Offline Posts: 2702	Posted: 31 Aug 2020 at 2:21pm
	Here in CA, the EV "tax", I think, is about $100/year. Depending on how much fuel your ICE vehicle uses, that could be more or less than. In our case, it's less, but I'm driving a truck. The consensus that I've read is that it's felt to be too low, but tracking mileage has big issues in several respects, including that some of that mileage might not be in state. Clearly, they use and contribute to the wear and required maintenance, but here is no easy solution so far.
	bp 2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River 2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost

offgrid Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 23 Jul 2018 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5290	Posted: 31 Aug 2020 at 12:58pm
	That article only listed the states that tax EV drivers MORE than they tax ICE drivers. Looks like there are 26 states that currently tax EV's something additional, so I guess that means 8 tax EV's something extra but LESS than ICE's, ans 24 more that don't yet impose any additional taxes. Also, EV buyers pay more for their vehicles up front, because of battery costs, in exchange for lower operating costs. So, they pay higher sales and excise taxes into the state coffers. And no, I don't agree that its fair, as long as the fossil fuel industry continues to be heavily subsidized directly and its external costs ignored. There is an organization called ALEC that is driving much of the state EV tax legislation, I'll give you just one guess where their funding comes from. Any discussion of taxation will inevitably become political in nature, all tax structures benefit some individuals or corporate entities more than others, as we see in the disparity between how the various states are implementing this. There really isn't any way to do it that will be seen as "fair" to everyone. I'm done on this topic at this point, not because I don't feel its important, but because we are beginning to step outside the forum rules.
	1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold

podwerkz Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 11 Mar 2019 Location: Texas Online Status: Offline Posts: 966	Posted: 31 Aug 2020 at 12:04pm
	I counted less than 18 existing, but in my mind, this is good news....sorta. As I said, EV owners need to pay their equitable share, but it should be mileage based...and the technology is there, although some might argue it is intrusive. I get that. My solution would be to impose a tax on tires that are installed new on EVs. Tires are a consumable. If a set of tires has an estimated life of say, 30,000 miles, just pay the per-mile tax based on 30,000 miles. It would be a one time fee, similar to an excise tax. Those who drive that kind of mileage in a year will pay it again for the next set of tires, and those who only drive, lets say, 5000 miles a year, well, they will pay a lot less, per year. Seems fair to me.
	r･pod 171 gone but not forgotten!

offgrid Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 23 Jul 2018 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5290	Posted: 31 Aug 2020 at 11:29am
	If you're running PbA batteries in an EV the battery life cycle cost is more than the electricity cost. With Li batteries its roughly the same, maybe a little less. Just found this Consumer Reports article. Looks like 18 states now have road taxes on EV's that are HIGHER than the average auto gas tax in that state, some over twice as high. And if you think that's not politically motivated, look at which states they are. https://www.consumerreports.org/hybrids-evs/more-states-hitting-electric-vehicle-owners-with-high-fees/
	1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold

podwerkz Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 11 Mar 2019 Location: Texas Online Status: Offline Posts: 966	Posted: 31 Aug 2020 at 10:55am
	Yeah no doubt in my mind that trucks cause more wear on roads and bridges, just like a 747 landing causes more wear to a runway than a Piper Cub. But also, roads and highways and bridges are generally built by the lowest bidder and there is often no warranty of any kind offered or required. Hey, my e-bike is not licensed, insured, taxed, titled, or registered, and I don't pay a penny to the state or feds to operate it on the roads and streets, but I can ride it on almost any road around here. I doubt I will take it up the entrance ramp to the interstate, but I could, if I wanted to risk life and limb... I figured out the pure electrical cost to operate it one time...and it varies widely depending on a lot of factors, (pedal assist level, hills, winds, etc) but I got an average result one time of about 4 miles per penny...not counting maintenance, tires, tubes, etc. Some e-bikes do a lot better, some, not as good. Like I said, it varies. And this is ON topic....I use the e-bike to pull a trailer! A little Schwinn Pet Trailer...the pooch loves it!
	r･pod 171 gone but not forgotten!

offgrid Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 23 Jul 2018 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5290	Posted: 31 Aug 2020 at 9:54am
	If you're not towing or hauling I think the current range of ev's, around 250-300 miles, is fine for most folks. I've made exactly one trip this year so far that pushed that distance, and there would have been a couple of level 3 chargers I could have used. Even if that had taken a whole hour I would still have been far ahead of the time I've spent at gas stations so far this year. But absolutely, if you tow and only have one vehicle, then its not practical, yet.
	1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold

StephenH Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List podders Helping podders - pHp Joined: 29 Nov 2015 Location: Wake Forest, NC Online Status: Offline Posts: 6417	Posted: 31 Aug 2020 at 9:34am
	If we needed a second vehicle, I would certainly consider an electric one for local use. I'm not opposed to them. However, since my wife does not drive (has never had a license), we only need one vehicle, so it has to be one that will be suitable for long-distance towing.
	StephenH Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS

lostagain Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 06 Sep 2016 Location: Quaker Hill, CT Online Status: Offline Posts: 2595	Posted: 31 Aug 2020 at 9:32am
	Maybe fuel taxes should be based on the total cost of a vehicle (from raw materials, to road wear and tear, to social costs (like cancer from air pollution), to environmental damage). Everyone seems to have his/her favorite, criticizing alternatives and ignoring one's favorite's flaws. The whole thing seems like an exercise in arguing about rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
	Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost

offgrid Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 23 Jul 2018 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5290	Posted: 31 Aug 2020 at 9:28am
	Yep, its easy to get wrapped around an axle on taxes and subsidies especially when something doesn't seem fair in direct comparison. But if you dig deeper there are pretty much always "hidden" subsidies that the incumbent technology gets that aren't at all obvious at first glance. Hard to tease the whole thing apart. Then there is the advantage that an incumbent technology always has because the investment in it has been made and depreciated long since. That's where the politics comes in, are the benefits of the new technology considered valuable enough to give it a helping hand to get started? Unlike things like smart phones which are little and cheap, energy and transportation technologies require massive investments and are very slow to change. I started working in photovoltaics in 1979 and its only the past few years that solar has become a significant energy player - 40 years. There is a plug in Prius (Prius Prime) but it only has an ev range of 25 miles, on a good day. Started out with only 11 mile ev range. Kind silly I think, but I guess if you're only using it to go shopping around town then maybe that works. I doubt a gen 1 Prius could get 60 at 60. I have a gen 3 which is supposed to be more efficient and I would probably get 55 at 60 mph, if I were to drive that slow. I'm generally at 70 around here on the freeways (which is slower than most folks) which gives me 50-ish, pretty much the same fuel economy as in town or on a windy rural road. I think my average since purchase is around 48. Re the battery, its actually really small in the std. Prius, 1.3 kwh. But its Nickel-metal hydride so it can take tons of cycling. if you are comfortable working with batteries and high voltage dc then it's pretty cheap to repair, generally only a cell or two needs to be replaced, I'm at 10 yearn and 150K miles and my battery is still performing fine so far....knock wood.... On heavy truck road taxes, I've heard the argument that the vast majority of road wear is from heavy vehicles. Don't know if its true or not. Should I not pay any road taxes because I don't wear out the roads? I pay taxes for the local school district and I haven't had a kid in school for 25 years. It would make more sense for me to pay the road tax for all those trucks, I use that service every day in the form of the goods and services I buy, even if I stayed home never drove and bought everything via Amazon. I guess as far as proliferation of electric trucks is concerned we can wait and see, as you say its not an issue at this point.
	1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold