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offgrid View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: My version of axle support
    Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 1:48pm
Originally posted by marwayne

Look I'm not an engineer I'm a finishing carpenter. Here is my point, since toyanvils design the down pressure is not vertical but in an angle therefore there is a lot more pressure against the riser than on my design. But as I stated before I'm not an engineer. I won't be able to try it fore a while, because it is snowing here and - 4 C.

Marwayne, I understand you're not an engineer. I am, and all I'm trying to do is help.  Geek

Your point about Toyanvil's design is valid, it does create a moment (torque) on the riser. That's why I suggested he bring the diagonal load up as high as possible to keep the moment load on the riser down to minimum. He did that and I think he'll be OK, but I didn't run the numbers. In my design, all the forces are vertical so its not a problem.

What GlueGuy and I are pointing out is that your design doesn't adress the underlying problem which is a cantilever which is too long. The bending stress on the axle tube starts at zero out at the wheels and reaches a maximum at the axle supports. The longer the distance between the wheel and the support point (the cantilever length) the higher the bending stress is. 

If the bump loads on both wheels are the same (say you go over a speed bump too fast) then the stress on the axle tube is the same between the supports as it is at the supports. Changing the distance between the supports  (which is what your design does by adding an additional support point in the center) doesn't change the bending stress on the tube. So, you will still reach the yield stress point of the steel at the same bump load as if you didn't add your support. Once you hit yield the steel tube will not return to its original curvature and you'll have negative camber. 

I hope that all makes sense. 

Re testing to see if any one of these solutions solves the problem is not really practical or necessary. You'd have to set up a controlled experiment where you overloaded your trailer axle with the reinforcement by an known amount, and show that everything is OK. Then remove the reinforcement and load it to the same point and show that the axle fails. Oops, now you have a bent axle Disapprove .  

No one is going to actually do that and its not necessary. The engineering of cantilever beams is very well understood. Buildings are designed using these same formulae (no testing needed)  and occupied by thousands of people safely. 








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podwerkz View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 1:45pm
I'm no engineer but it seems to me that limiting the very slight downward movement of the center of the axle tube (during heavy loading, hard bumps and potholes) will INCREASE the forces on the axle tube just outboard of the frame attachment points. 

If the middle tube section has no 'give', the deflection will be transferred outward, or so it seems to me. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 1:39pm
It would be nice if I was able to add Toyanvils design to the outside of my axle, but that is beyond my capability.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 1:16pm
Look I'm not an engineer I'm a finishing carpenter. Here is my point, since toyanvils design the down pressure is not vertical but in an angle therefore there is a lot more pressure against the riser than on my design. But as I stated before I'm not an engineer. I won't be able to try it fore a while, because it is snowing here and - 4 C.
If you want something done right, do it yourself.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 12:51pm
Originally posted by marwayne

I did the same as Toyanvil. Toyanvil stated that nothing is attached to the frame but to the risers, that's what I did.Toyanvil attached on the outside, I attached it on the inside.

i think there is a misunderstanding here of the forces involved. As GlueGuy says, the issue is that the cantilever created by the inboard axle mounting points to the frame is too long. Toyanvil's and my approaches adress this by supporting the axle tube outboard of those mounting points, reducing that cantilever load on the axle tube. 

Unfortunately, Marwayne's approach does not provide this support. 

Here is the load diagram and the stress equations (just think of it as flipped upside down).


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 12:50pm
All I'm trying to do is to prevent the axle to go into a negative camber
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 12:02pm
marwayne, as always your work is executed exceptionally well.  Do you plan on coming up with something to support the part of the axle that extends from the frame/risers to the brake drum?  How do you you plan on managing the stress put on that part of the axle now that the part inside the frame is reinforced?  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 11:51am
Originally posted by marwayne

I did the same as Toyanvil. Toyanvil stated that nothing is attached to the frame but to the risers, that's what I did.Toyanvil attached on the outside, I attached it on the inside.

It looks like yours is the middle ground between the other two designs.

It will be interesting to read updates on how each of the three designs work in real life.
StephenH
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marwayne View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 10:24am
I did the same as Toyanvil. Toyanvil stated that nothing is attached to the frame but to the risers, that's what I did.Toyanvil attached on the outside, I attached it on the inside.
If you want something done right, do it yourself.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 9:35am
Unless there is something outboard of the frame members that I'm missing, then I'm inclined to agree with offgrid. The weak point in the axle design is the long moment arm outboard of the frame attach points. The basic issue is the wheels & tires & torsion arm are cantilevered outboard of the frame. The solution that Toyanvil came up with and the one that offgrid did to reinforce that area look like viable solutions to me.
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