And no central heat. I well recall standing on top of the gas floor heaters in my parent's house trying to get warm on a chilly morning. And yes, NorCal can get pretty chilly at night in the winter. Uninsulated walls and single pane glass. We didn't have enough money to run the floor heaters at night  so it was pretty common to see condensation from my breath when I woke up  in the morning. That's what warm blankets were for. 

But nothing compared to what my mom who grew up in the UP in the 20s and 30s had to deal with. Outhouse at 40 below....

Jato, I respect the strength and sincerity of your beliefs, but you just made my point.  Mr. Morris gave us his interpretation of the sources he consulted from libraries.  All are his opinions about what was in the mind of other people based upon his interpretation of what others had written about what the they thought were the intentions of the founding fathers.  In the legal business, we call that hearsay and speculation and it is not admissible evidence to prove a fact.  Probably some of the people who were involved in founding of our country shared your and Mr. Morris' views, but there were many who did not.  Many of the founders were aghast at the idea of any religion whatsoever being involved in any form in our governance.  We can cherry pick the evidence of the original writings of the "founders" and claim it supports any position we may advocate, but it would still only be our opinions.  I am not aware of one single actual "founder" who specifically wrote that his or her intent was x in writing some clause in the constitution.  And even if there was, it would prove nothing in regard to the intent of the other writers or founders, whomever they may be.  We can glean what we please from their writings, but there is simply no reliable first had evidence that all, or most, of the founders specifically agreed as you opine.  I think we have beaten this dead horse of religion and politics to death.  It is really a violation of the rules of the board in which we agree not to discuss religion or politics.

FWIW, we also drank out of garden hoses, road bikes without helmets, played with lawn darts,  and rode in the back of pickups. It's amazing we even survived  

Originally posted by lostagain Jato, this is getting pretty religious and political.  I don't question for a moment your sincerity in the opinions you hold, but they are opinions based on your deeply held beliefs.  Whether they conform to an objective assessment of the "intent" of the those who wrote our constitution is a matter for debate.  The same is true for Mr. Morris.  He was born in 1810 and by the time he reached 18 years of age, the founding fathers were long gone.  It is a certainty that he never spoke to any of them about what they intended.  His writings are opinions gleaned from what he believed they wanted, but that may not necessarily be the case.  It would not be surprising to find that his deeply and sincerely held religious beliefs affected the formation of his his opinions.  My readings about the formation of our constitution and my study and practice of law since 1973 have led me to different opinions about what our founders intended, but my opinions are just that: opinions, not facts.

I am glad you brought this point up.  I am not trying to be 'religious' or 'political' here as the beauty of this book is that the majority of this book is a compilation of historical written documents written by the original authors.  He gives thanks to the Librarians of the Young Men's Mercantile Library Association, the Mechanics' Institute Libraries of Cincinnati, the State Library of Ohio, the Historical and Astor Libraries of New York, the Mercantile Library and Library Association of Philadelphia, the Libraries of Congress, and of the Interior Department and Chief Clerk in the Department of State.  What Morris did here was take numerous written and recorded documents (many found in the Library of Congress), many times without comment and put them together in a readable form.

EchoGale, the NO2 is a product of combustion. the nitrogen isnt in the fuel, it's in the air, so a little of it gets oxidized to form NO2 when you burn pretty much any fuel. NO2 from burning gasoline is what used to form all that nasty brown LA smog back before cars got good pollution  controls. And BTW it's formed from burning wood too. The difference is that only a cook stove or unvented space heater throws the stuff right into the house rather than outdoors. 

Originally posted by offgrid   Id put one in tomorrow except that I heat with wood. Costs me nothing except a ton of labor felling, bucking, splitting, stacking, and managing the woodstove  (and some chains for the chainsaw). So I'm going to put off the new heat pump investment till I get too old to run away fast enough to keep the tree from falling on me. Hopefully I'll know that in advance....

Well said, fortunately we have a seemingly endless supply of wood in northern Michigan and thanks to the EAB, a lot of white ash trees are dead, but still standing, allowing it to 'cure' for instant burning once it is cut, carried off, dumped off trailer, split, stacked, unstacked and brought to the stove, and finally burned.  Also a lot of other wood as well, maple, beech, ironwood, birch, that oft times may be laying on the ground and at certain points of decomposition so those have to be cut up first before they become one with the earth again.  Regardless, kudos for you in using wood, a great way to keep away from doctors, hospitals, ect.  and keeping your body 'fit.'

As for the leasing of equipment, between Eversource and the leasing company, the economic benefit left over for the consumer is negligible, hardly worth the bother.  The big companies always make sure they get the pig's portion of the benefit.

There's really nothing to wear out in a PV module, the end of life usually comes because the encapsulation system (the plastic lamination) fails and the solar cells corrode. I just removed the original 43 watt glass solar module from my 27 year old RV, tested it  and it works just fine. There is starting to be some noticeable cell corrosion though. 

LA, you won't be happy with your conventional heat pump's performance in cold weather. Unless its been manufacturerd in the last year or so and is a high performance mini split or similar and labelled "hyper heat" or something like that it's going to quit working efficiently somewhere around 32 degrees F. Below that the thermostat on  most existing heat pump systems flips over to resistance heat strips which of course have a COP of 1. That makes them about twice as expensive as natural gas, and about the same as propane or oil heat at current prices. IOW, only a new inverter based high efficiency heat pump is going to give the kind of peformance needed to compete with natural gas heat.

Looks like Connecticut ended it's net metering program as of Jan 1 this year. Net metering goes by state and requires your utility to buy all your solar power at retail, up to when that equals your total annual consumption. Net metering us a great deal  because basically the utility acts as a free battery for you, so anyone considering doing solar in a net metering state like Virgina where I live should do it now and not wait. The utilities hate net metering for obvious reasons so lobby against it. Looks like they were successful in Conecticut. There is a new program now there but I don't know anything about it's economics  

One of my co-volunteers on the Habitat houses we're building just got his solar system license.  As time goes on, I may find a way to come up with a system that we can afford with Ed's help in the design and installation.  Another problem we're running into with an on grid solar system is that the local utility company is making it less and less economical to operate it.  The want to reap the benefits, not give them to their subscribers.

It's not necessarily the cost of the 2 burner induction heat stove that is the problem for our trailer, it's the cost of a completely new battery system.  We usually camp in the boondocks, so connecting to an electric power source is out of the question and I don't see any point in running a generator on LP to avoid using LP in the trailer, when I can solve the combustion products issue by opening a window.  Our trailer and my trailer camping days are limited, so the cost of a lithium battery system just doesn't make sense.  We'll just muddle through for the next few years before we get rid of the trailer.  

But yes, to camp off grid without turning on your genny to cook you need some more stuff. For me, with my solar engineering background and willingness to buy cheap Chinese stuff, that will be inexpensive enough that it fits in my pretty meager RV budget. I expect to be putting about a net of $3k into the Chinook to do that, assuming I can get a couple $k for my Onan gen and roof a/c, both of which I now have off the camper. We'll see how it comes out.  I get that most folks would be apprehensive about my approach though.

Ditto for my home solar install. I bought 30kw of second hand solar modules for $11k. With structure, inverters, etc I'll wind up around double that as a total installed cost. On that I get s 30% tax credit.  Simple payback will take around  5 years or so. So I certainly hope to live long enough to be bread ahead, but if not my wife will be, and if not her my kids. It's an excellent investment, the system should produce well in excess of $100k of electricity over it's useful life. 

As for EVs, I'm buying the cheapest one on the market. The Chevy Bolt costs no more than a typical compact car these days, which in my book is a lot. But I have to replace my aging Prius soon anyway, it's 13 years old and approaching 200k miles. I'm hopeful that the Bolt will last me the rest of my life. 

If you can't do the engineering or the installation yourself, or if you don't have the cash to invest, you should still consider leasing a PV system, assuming you have a site that allows for it. You wont make a ton of money in the deal, someone else will be making the investment and reaping most of the financial rewards. But you would be hedging against future energy cost increases and doing your bit for the environment. Just sayin'.. 

Finally, the alternative to combustion furnaces exists now too, you could buy it tomorrow. It's a low temp heat pump, and has about a 2x coefficient of performance down to around 5 deg F or even lower. 

What does that mean in terms of energy cost to you? Retail natural gas is currently around $20 per million btu.  With a high efficiency gas furnace that works out to the equivalent of around 8 cents per kWh. So if you pay under 16 cents a kWh for electricity, with a COP of 2 youre ahead with the modern heat pump. If you currently heat with propane or oil you're waaay ahead.  So unless you're living in a really cold place which is frequently below around 0 or so 5, I'd suggest installing a new heat pump when your gas furnace goes out.  

Id put one in tomorrow except that I heat with wood. Costs me nothing except a ton of labor felling, bucking, splitting, stacking, and managing the woodstove  (and some chains for the chainsaw). So I'm going to put off the new heat pump investment till I get too old to run away fast enough to keep the tree from falling on me. Hopefully I'll know that in advance....

If you're looking for a gas furnace alternative that costs you nothing then that doesn't exist  and it never will.  But you do  get a tax credit starting this year on a new heat pump. 

In the mean time, Dave and Danette are right, make sure you have adequate ventilation when you use gas appliances.  

These are all opinions. Strongly held, no doubt, but that just makes them more subject to confirmation bias.  

Everyone suffers from confirmation bias, we all prefer to look no further once we absorb information that confirms what we already believe. Life is much more efficient and easier that way. But very often this results in reaching the wrong conclusions. In the internet age where we have artificial intelligence spoon feeding us only information and media that we already agree with this has been taken to an extreme level, so we all must be on the lookout when we consume media or obtain information  that supports our preexisting assumptions. We must look further, and also take in and  evaluate information that contradicts our existing beliefs. 

In science this process is called falsification, and is a critical step in proving any hypothesis. Researchers have to not only perform  experiments that could confirm their hypothesis, but also ones that could disprove it. So, if it's not possible to prove a hypothesis wrong then it's not a scientific hypothesis  in the first place.   And if the researcher doesn't attempt to disprove his hypothesis  then it's bad science. 

Not to say scientists aren't subject to confirmation bias, of course they are, like everyone. But at least in the scientific community  the peer review process is there to try to ferret out when a researcher's confirmation bias has kept him from properly attempting to falsify his hypothesis.  Pretty much everywhere else in life there is not much to stop us all from living in our nice little self confirming bubbles. So the best defense is to be aware and to deliberatly seek out and honestly evaluate contradictory information. 

Take the misinformation about the Covid vaccines for example. At first glance, data showing that more vaccinated people are dying from Covid than unvaccinated people supports the pre-existing opinion of the antivaxxers. But it doesnt really. If everyone was vaccinated then by definition 100% of those dying would have been vaccinated. So since we're at a high percentage (around 80%) vaccinated, of course more vaccinated folks are dying than unvaccinated  We have to look further for data that supports or falsifies the hypothesis that the Civid vaccines have been ineffective. 

Back to the original topic. Re propane vs induction cooktops in RVs. Where I disagree with LA's statement that induction cooktops may one day become a possibility in RVs. They are very viable now. Many people use them already. You need a substantial battery bank, usually lithium, and an adequate electrical energy source, some combination of shore power, solar, alternator engine charging, and/or generator charging  If the gas cooktop breaks in my Chinook I'll very likely replace it with an induction cooktop, but in  the meantime I'll spend my limited RV upgrade dollars elsewhere. 

But back to the real topic, gas stoves:  Induction stoves, according to EnergyStar: "The per unit efficiency of induction Cooking Tops is about 5-10% more efficient than conventional electric resistance units and about 3 times more efficient than gas. If all Cooking Tops sold in 2021 in the U.S. used induction technology and met these draft criteria, the energy cost savings would exceed $125 million and the energy savings would exceed 1,000 GWh."  So induction stoves may eventually become a possibility for travel trailer.  In the meantime, we need to be careful ensuring adequate ventilation when using LP appliances.  With homes, as they become increasingly sealed from outside air, such precautions are also essential

StephenH, re the electric wok cookers I don't think youre wrong in observing that they aren't here in the US. The link I sent was for a Chinese one made to Chinese standards. It couldn't be installed here in any jurisdiction with building codes, because the NEC requires use of only listed appliances (with limited exceptions for industrial facilities with on site technical staff). Since natural gas is much less prevalent in China than it is here, and there are a lot more Chinese restaurants in China, they have a far larger domestic market for commercial electric wok cookers that we ever will. 

Originally posted by lostagain It's easy to get angry about the idea that the government enters our personal lives, but that has always been the case, whether it was being forced to work for the lords of the manor as a peasant on his land, practice his religion, making personal medical decisions that are uniquely private, not raising pigs in your suburban home, or having to be quarantined as OG points out.  No one likes to be told what to do.  At the risk of continuing the political tone of this thread, I can personally say that I never met any of our founding fathers, though sometimes I feel that old.  I don't have a clue what they may have truly intended.  I have read much about the founding of our country, but I have to say that virtually everyone, including myself, says the founding fathers intended this or that based on our own biases and preferences.

Here is an excellent read to get a 'flavor' or our Founding Fathers intended.  This masterpiece was written by Benjamin F. Morris, who began to compile the contents written in this 1060 page treatise around 1853.  Mr. Morris undertook this labor of love because by that time there were already forces in America by the revisionists which were seeking to deny the Christian origins and foundation, and to destroy the dominantly Christian nature of our Constitution and laws.  First printing was during the 1860's.  Second printing August 2007.  The title "The Christian Life and Character of the Civil Institutions of the United States."

It's easy to get angry about the idea that the government enters our personal lives, but that has always been the case, whether it was being forced to work for the lords of the manor as a peasant on his land, practice his religion, making personal medical decisions that are uniquely private, not raising pigs in your suburban home, or having to be quarantined as OG points out.  No one likes to be told what to do.  At the risk of continuing the political tone of this thread, I can personally say that I never met any of our founding fathers, though sometimes I feel that old.  I don't have a clue what they may have truly intended.  I have read much about the founding of our country, but I have to say that virtually everyone, including myself, says the founding fathers intended this or that based on our own biases and preferences.  And what difference does it make anyway?  We live in this world now, not in the days before indoor plumbing, unheated homes, horse transportation, and black powder muzzle loading muskets.  Truly, none of us really knows what the founders of our country intended; we just make stuff up to support our preferences.  We need to be practical and pragmatic, while trying to preserve the balance between our individuality, the needs of our communities, and respect for one another.

Doesn't have to be gas. Just has to be hot as all get out. Looks like you need about 100k btu/hr (30kw) for a real commercial wok. So guess what? 

https://m.made-in-china.com/product/30kw-Two-Burner-Induction-Wok-Stove-730722065.html

And it's not even expensive as commercial ranges go. 

You do need 380V 3 phase service to operate at this power level. Pretty common in China. 480Vac 3 phase is the common commercial service in North America. Even better.

For home use you can buy one of these. 

https://www.lowes.com/pd/SPT-11-in-1-Burner-Black-Induction-Cooktop-Common-11-in-Actual-14-75-in/1002656866?cm_mmc=shp-_-c-_-prd-_-app-_-ggl-_-PLA_APP_118_Refrigerators-Freezers-_-1002656866-_-online-_-0-_-0&ds_rl=1286981&ds_rl=1286890&gclid=CjwKCAiA2fmdBhBpEiwA4CcHzbe0BhQn0vkTYuch6b5K9TPnCGfDjFEWKvuH51mHXk_iYwx-h6R_LBoCqusQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

So converting away from burning methane or propane is very doable  Like with EVs, it will require some infrastructure upgrades and changes, sure. Big deal. Most of rural America had no electricity at all not so long ago. 

So what happened to that American can-do attitude? We went to the moon with 1960s tech. Did we export it to China along with all our technology? Frankly I'm getting tired of all the whining and winging about how great things used to be. That's what the Brits did, and they created the industrial revolution.  Look what happened to their empire.

Things change, get on board or get out of the way, but be ready to face the consequences when your competition leaves you in the dust. IMHO, our days are numbered if we dont change our attitude, and soon.