R-pod Owners Forum : Changing times https://www.rpod-owners.com/ This is an XML content feed of; R-pod Owners Forum : Miscellaneous / Off-topic : Changing times Copyright (c) 2006-2009 Web Wiz Forums - All Rights Reserved. Thu, 28 May 2026 17:46:33 +0000 Fri, 08 Jul 2022 10:30:25 +0000 http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss Web Wiz Forums 9.64 360 https://www.rpod-owners.com/RSS_post_feed.asp?TID=15104 R-pod Owners Forum https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_images/web_wiz_forums.png https://www.rpod-owners.com/ Changing times : I think perhaps the moderator... https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148838#148838 Author: David and Danette
Subject: 15104
Posted: 08 Jul 2022 at 10:30am

  I think perhaps the moderator should step in. This definitely is changing into a unfriendly discussion far from happy campers!]]> Fri, 08 Jul 2022 10:30:25 +0000 https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148838#148838 Changing times : +1 (or is it +2?) to OG and... https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148837#148837 Author: GlueGuy
Subject: 15104
Posted: 08 Jul 2022 at 9:55am

+1 (or is it +2?) to OG and LA. I understand that the topic doesn't appeal to everyone. So just know that people are having a discussion without vitriol and skip over it.]]> Fri, 08 Jul 2022 09:55:04 +0000 https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148837#148837 Changing times : Though it pains me to say this... https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148833#148833 Author: lostagain
Subject: 15104
Posted: 08 Jul 2022 at 6:09am

Though it pains me to say this because I am an argumentative grumpy old geezer:

+1 to OG.
]]> Fri, 08 Jul 2022 06:09:15 +0000 https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148833#148833 Changing times : Originally posted by hogonejust... https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148830#148830 Author: offgrid
Subject: 15104
Posted: 08 Jul 2022 at 4:55am

Originally posted by hogone

just be a normal human being ......f**kin freaks


I have a suggestion for you. Take a look at the title of this topic and the category. It says "miscellaneous/off topic" and "changing times".

When you see that, don't read it, it is obviously of no interest to you.

You are free to start your own topic (or not) in this same category where you can talk about anything you want, within the forum rules (no politics, religion, guns, obscenities or personal attacks).

Oh wait, you violated the last two already.

I'm sure I would find your posts as boring as you find mine and won't read them either. In my book thats ok on both counts, it's good we don't all think alike.

You might also want to consider finding a time machine to return to 1930s Germany where you can join the Party and be a part of the self defined regular Volk who got to decide what "normal" was and what everyone else was allowed to think or say. But this is 21st century America, neither of us gets to do that here.









]]> Fri, 08 Jul 2022 04:55:51 +0000 https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148830#148830 Changing times : tottally concur.........your guys... https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148828#148828 Author: hogone
Subject: 15104
Posted: 07 Jul 2022 at 6:44pm

tottally concur.........your guys storys are very boring,,,,,,,,how about some real issues ........go pack]]> Thu, 07 Jul 2022 18:44:14 +0000 https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148828#148828 Changing times : Like I said, the horse was beaten... https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148827#148827 Author: lostagain
Subject: 15104
Posted: 07 Jul 2022 at 5:57pm

Like I said, the horse was beaten to a bloody pulp and is smeared all over the road.]]> Thu, 07 Jul 2022 17:57:38 +0000 https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148827#148827 Changing times : sorry forum...........ther both... https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148826#148826 Author: hogone
Subject: 15104
Posted: 07 Jul 2022 at 4:36pm

sorry forum...........ther both freaks that really doesnt care,      sorry but i had to repond .jpp]]> Thu, 07 Jul 2022 16:36:09 +0000 https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148826#148826 Changing times : your a freakin freak https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148825#148825 Author: hogone
Subject: 15104
Posted: 07 Jul 2022 at 3:59pm

your a freakin freak]]> Thu, 07 Jul 2022 15:59:50 +0000 https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148825#148825 Changing times : Your statement "in other... https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148824#148824 Author: offgrid
Subject: 15104
Posted: 07 Jul 2022 at 3:14pm

Your statement "in other words" explicitly means that you are attempting to put words in my mouth. As is usual in certain professions, the best defense when losing a technical argument is to attack.

If all buildings were built in a standardized way optimizing the use of available materials, they would obviously require less resources than customized buildings do. It would make for a really boring built environment and deprive the people who are making those design decisions of any freedom of choice.

At some point when these decisions are taken to the extreme and involve environmental elements they become greenwashing, or otherwise absurd behavior. Where that point is is in the eye of the beholder.

For example I think electric Hummers step over the absurd line. Others might think that theyre fine.

But is this fraudulent behavior?

"a person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities."

I think most of the deception is probably self deception in these cases, the decision makers usually want to do the right thing but get carried away. And generally if corporations are involved the engineering staff gets a chance to keep the marking folks' claims at least somewhat in line. I wouldn't accuse GM of fraud for producing the Hummer EV. I doubt GM claims that an electric Hummer is actually greener than a gasoline fueled Prius.

The Thyssen Wonkavator and Schindler solar elevator are both somewhere on this same spectrum. Niether is fraud, but also neither is the best use of resources.

I won't argue where on the spectrum each of these is, although I would certainly expect the Wonkavator to be much closer to the absurd than the solar elevator. OTOH, I bet the Thyssen product is a whole lot more fun to ride in than the Schindler one. Unless of course it breaks while you're riding it.....

Either one is ok with me if the owner wants to pay for it.

As for the engineering involved sure
my viewpoint is opinion but it is expert opinion based on years and years of experience in the solar field. It applies to any load device, there is nothing special about elevators that would make them suddenly need far less energy in the winter than the summer so their consumption matches the seasonal solar output in northern Europe and allows them to operate efficiently without grid connection.





]]> Thu, 07 Jul 2022 15:14:24 +0000 https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148824#148824 Changing times : just be a normal human being ......f**kin... https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148823#148823 Author: hogone
Subject: 15104
Posted: 07 Jul 2022 at 3:04pm

just be a normal human being ......f**kin freaks]]> Thu, 07 Jul 2022 15:04:22 +0000 https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148823#148823 Changing times : who the f**k really cares about... https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148822#148822 Author: hogone
Subject: 15104
Posted: 07 Jul 2022 at 2:59pm

who the f**k really cares about about yours guys ramblings............and negativity......gets old and really doesnt matter to us simple people..........get a real life if able.......]]> Thu, 07 Jul 2022 14:59:59 +0000 https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148822#148822 Changing times : What you said is: "So the... https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148820#148820 Author: lostagain
Subject: 15104
Posted: 07 Jul 2022 at 1:38pm

What you said is: "So the Schindler solar elevator is going to appeal to architects and building owners who want to appear to be green more than they actually are green."  In other words, the actors want something to appear different from that which actually is.  That is misrepresentation, which is a form of fraud.  

Before you make representations of energy use on solar elevators, it would behove you to learn from some qualified elevator engineers who actually have experience with these products.  Otherwise, it is just one more internet "opinion."  

This horse has been beaten to a pulp and is making a mess on the road.
]]> Thu, 07 Jul 2022 13:38:05 +0000 https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148820#148820 Changing times : Good grief. Re kidding, I never... https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148817#148817 Author: offgrid
Subject: 15104
Posted: 07 Jul 2022 at 8:14am

Good grief.

Re kidding, I never said the skyscraper thing made any sense. I was as surprised as you were that it wasn't meant as satire. Note my Willy Wonka references.

As for solar elevators, no one said anything about fraud. There are lots of bespoke architectural elements and systems, environmentally oriented and otherwise, that are intended to make statements supporting their owners personal or corporate positioning. Few actually make economic sense or are a good use of resources, but they don't need to be.

Varicolored bespoke solar panels are one such. Ive done that for architects in the past, looks cool on the building facade but costs a ton and negatively impacts system performance. Never stopped anyone in the "green" architectural community from asking for them if they had a client with deep pockets.

Solar elevators are another one of those. So is Thyssen's Wonkavator. Methinks that perhaps your favoring one over the other is more a matter of corporate loyalty than anything else.

The energy flow for stand alone solar is what it is, it's not complicated. You don't get nearly as much solar energy in winter as summer in northern latitudes, so if you have an elevator which gets similar usage in all seasons it will either be underpowered in winter or overpowered in summer and either will be wasting energy part of the year or needing additional energy the other part, or both. No way around the first law of thermodynamics. Grid connection solves that, and I'm sure Schindler is doing exactly that behind the scenes, just deemphasizing it for marketing purposes.

]]> Thu, 07 Jul 2022 08:14:48 +0000 https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148817#148817 Changing times : Before you condemn the Schindler... https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148816#148816 Author: lostagain
Subject: 15104
Posted: 07 Jul 2022 at 6:07am

Before you condemn the Schindler and Ascensores Fain solar powered elevators, you might want to reach out to the their engineers to see how they're working.  Clearly you haven't done so.  Your blanket condemnation of them as only wanting to perpetrate a fraud by appearing to be "green" to building owners and architects and that such a system makes no practical sense is noting but pure rhetorical posturing with utterly no facts to support this baseless speculation.  As for your claim that you were only kidding, well, ok, if you say so.]]> Thu, 07 Jul 2022 06:07:51 +0000 https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148816#148816 Changing times : I was kidding about the Thyssen... https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148814#148814 Author: offgrid
Subject: 15104
Posted: 07 Jul 2022 at 4:05am

I was kidding about the Thyssen Wonavator.

It's not a day/night problem, batteries do take care of that. It's a summer/winter problem. Trust me I designed these systems for a living for 40 years.

Off grid solar is never anywhere near as efficient as grid tied because of seasonal solar insolation variation. If you size the PV array for winter operation when the available insolation is low you will waste the excess energy production in summer to avoid battery overcharging. There is no way around that unless there is another place for the excess production to go, eg the grid. To do it with batteries you would need to install enough battery capacity to carry the load for smany months, which is totally cost and resource prohibitive.

This is especially true in a northern climate like Europe where ppl tend to be most interested in this kind of thing. In northern Germany there is more than a 5x difference between June and December for example.

So the Schindler solar elevator is going to appeal to architects and building owners who want to appear to be green more than they actually are green. If they really want to be green they'll install a conventional grid tied solar array and a conventional grid connected elevator system. As with Thyssen's Wonkavator, Schindler's off grid solar elevator sounds really cool but makes no practical sense.



]]> Thu, 07 Jul 2022 04:05:39 +0000 https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148814#148814 Changing times : The Thyssen mag-lev system has... https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148811#148811 Author: lostagain
Subject: 15104
Posted: 06 Jul 2022 at 5:37pm

The Thyssen mag-lev system has been an unmitigated disaster.  It is phenomenally expensive to maintain, breaks more often than an R-Pod, is a true Rub Goldberg of moving parts that fails frequently.  I've been away from the elevator business for a bit, but the hourly rates for a weekend call back is about $1,500 an hour for a repair team of 2 mechanics, portal to portal.  I don't have any information on the energy consumption, but I doubt it is more efficient than a modern traction elevator with a VFVV drive ac gearless machine.  

Another thing that is being missed is the fact that the busy time for elevators is mostly during daylight hours.  So the sun doesn't shine very well when they want to spill the sand in the doorway.  At night is the time when the elevators in most places are quiet.  Not much direct solar is available at 2 am. 

Robots are another thing that is complication.  I worked with a number of jobs where hospitals used robotic drug dispensaries.  They drove all over the hospital and rode the elevators.  It was wonderful.  At least a couple times a month, usually on weekend nights, they'd crash into the hatch doors and knock them off the tracks so they couldn't close.  Elevators don't run with open doors in ideal circumstances.  The callback for the emergency repair team was usually around $8K or $9K.  Helped pay for my friends boats and motorcycles, not to mention their very reasonable dues to IUEC Local 8. 

As for solar elevators, the left over electrons from the day's running are usually stored in batteries and used at night during times of low usage.  Code limitations also restrict mixing elevator operation with other building systems.  It may not be permitted to share the battery storage with other building systems.  Solar power for solar elevators is roof mounted.  Schindler has been one of the leaders of solar vertical transportation research.  That was one of the reasons they were one of the sponsors of the Solar Impulse project.  They learned a great deal of technical information they were able to transfer to vertical transportation systems.
]]> Wed, 06 Jul 2022 17:37:39 +0000 https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148811#148811 Changing times : From what you describe as the... https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148809#148809 Author: offgrid
Subject: 15104
Posted: 06 Jul 2022 at 4:55pm

From what you describe as the energy profile of conventional cable based counterweighted elevators, it sounds like the skyscraper storage concept would work much better with the cable-less Thyssen maglev elevator technology the article refers to. The only problem I guess is it costs 5x what a normal elevator costs. But it can go sideways as well as up and down.   Willy Wonka anyone?

As for a solar elevator, it's going to be better to just grid tie the solar instead. That way none of the energy is wasted when the batteries get full and elevator usage is low, it can get used elsewhere in the building or by other grid customers.
Same problem happens with solar powered EVs, better to put the solar on the roof and grid tie it rather than on the car itself.   

]]> Wed, 06 Jul 2022 16:55:04 +0000 https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148809#148809 Changing times : Like I say, the author proposing... https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148807#148807 Author: lostagain
Subject: 15104
Posted: 06 Jul 2022 at 8:27am

Like I say, the author proposing this approach best talk to some elevator engineers.  He's not quite clear on how elevators utilize energy.  The heavy lifting for elevators is in the down direction because the counterweights weigh 1.6 times the weight of the cabin, with a cargo/passenger load evening out the balance of the weight.  It also fails to account for the wear and tear, with the need for increased maintenance that would result from such heavy loads.  And we haven't even touched on the energy consumed by the robots moving back and forth with heavy loads of the wet sand, which will inevitably get spilled into the elevator are leading to extraordinarily expensive repairs.  This is a very complex "solution" that can be achieved by so many other simple means.  It is a violation of the KISS rule in spades.  When a quality elevator company, such as Otis, Schindler, Kone, Mitsubishi, or Thyssen buys into such a "solution."  It will have some credibility.  Until then, it's pretty much pie in the sky.

Here is a little more realistic approach:  schindler-solar-elevator-powered-exclusively-by-sunlight-1765
https://www.pv-magazine.com/2019/09/10/solar-powered-elevator-unveiled-in-spain/
https://us.schindler.com/en/media/news-press-releases/schindler-introduces-advanced-solar-elevator.html
https://www.transparencymarketresearch.com/solar-powered-elevator-market.html
]]> Wed, 06 Jul 2022 08:27:26 +0000 https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148807#148807 Changing times : not satire, apparently. someone... https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148806#148806 Author: offgrid
Subject: 15104
Posted: 06 Jul 2022 at 7:26am

not satire, apparently. someone spent quite a lot of time looking at this.

Here is a link to the researchers published study

0

Lift energy storage

My thought is that post Covid everyone wants to work from home anyway. So why not just vacate the top half of all those high rise office buildings and use half of each building and half the elevators for energy storage? That still leaves half of each building for human use, let the robots and sand have the rest so nobody's feet need to be run over. ]]> Wed, 06 Jul 2022 07:26:38 +0000 https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148806#148806 Changing times : Someone should talk to some elevator... https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148804#148804 Author: lostagain
Subject: 15104
Posted: 06 Jul 2022 at 6:09am

Someone should talk to some elevator engineers about this.  The proponents don't seem to be clear on how elevators work, not to mention the complexities of moving their wet sand.  I assume this is satire.

For a good overview of new energy storage technology, there is a great series on YouTube, which I mentioned before, called Just Have a Think, that reviews emerging technologies for energy capture and storage.  https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=just+have+a+think
]]> Wed, 06 Jul 2022 06:09:57 +0000 https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148804#148804 Changing times : Here's the answer we've... https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148800#148800 Author: offgrid
Subject: 15104
Posted: 05 Jul 2022 at 5:49pm

Here's the answer we've been looking for.

Grid energy storage using elevators in skyscrapers, with robots storing wet sand ballast in the corridors. And the robots will be programmed to get out of the elevators if ppl need to use them.

Skyscraper energy storage.]]> Tue, 05 Jul 2022 17:49:27 +0000 https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148800#148800 Changing times : Having spent much of my career... https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148719#148719 Author: offgrid
Subject: 15104
Posted: 28 Jun 2022 at 1:33pm

Having spent much of my career in solar fighting the utility companies' antiquated mindset, I completely agree. The traditional utilities are stuck with the idea that their revenue must come from power generation and so have usually viewed distributed renewables as competition and resisted them.

But that is different now in the open energy markets, PJM being the largest example. In those markets transmission, distribution and production of electricity have been separated, so it is very possible for an aggregator (for example Tesla) to sign up and sell distributed power and/or grid support services. That is likely going to be where the innovations happen first.

I also agree that while grid connected Li batteries can be deployed either distributed or centralized, it makes sense to distribute them. That way they can perform both a grid support function as well as provide their owners with autonomous operation when there are grid failures.

My point here is that if those batteries are also serving as EV storage, we have minimized the economic and environment impacts of deploying storage. The storage is needed so it's going to happen one way or another.
]]> Tue, 28 Jun 2022 13:33:39 +0000 https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148719#148719 Changing times : I don't disagree that currently... https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148713#148713 Author: GlueGuy
Subject: 15104
Posted: 28 Jun 2022 at 10:13am

I don't disagree that currently the best storage option is Li. However, it is also my personal belief that the long-term solution will be a much more distributed storage and generation scheme. At present, most utilities are heavily invested in selling power, and not their distribution system. It is the primary reason that solar grid-tie is such a big issue all over the country. If they can change their mind set, and start charging for distribution in some fashion, they might be much more receptive to distributed storage and generation.]]> Tue, 28 Jun 2022 10:13:14 +0000 https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148713#148713 Changing times : Distributed battery storage for... https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148711#148711 Author: offgrid
Subject: 15104
Posted: 28 Jun 2022 at 7:16am

Distributed battery storage for grid support tests are expanding. Note the compensation and opt out incentives for the storage owners.

CA grid storage test

90+ percent of grid battery storage utilizes Li batteries, driven by volume and cost Li battery reduction from EV demand. 2.8 TWH Li battery annual production capacity is expected by 2025. All other battery options will be at best a tiny fraction of that figure.

For the US grid to be essentially 100% renewable we would need about 6TWH of storage capacity by 2050. Li is the only battery technology able to deliver the kind of scale needed soon enough, to think there will be any other alternative battery technology of sufficient scale in the next decade or longer is magical thinking. Investors have already placed their bets on Li.

To fill out the picture over 90% of grid storage is pumped hydro. Unfortunately, hydro sites are limited and dams and reservoirs suffer greatly from NIMBY so are hard to get approved and built. The DOE projects grid battery storage to become dominant by around the end of the decade.

If you think it's urgent to get battery grid storage in place at scale then you should strongly support dual use of EV batteries for grid storage, otherwise the environmental impacts will be significantly worse because battery capacity will be duplicated and far more batteries will be needed.    


]]> Tue, 28 Jun 2022 07:16:09 +0000 https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148711#148711 Changing times : I personally don't believe... https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148562#148562 Author: GlueGuy
Subject: 15104
Posted: 17 Jun 2022 at 10:28am

I personally don't believe that EV batteries are "the" solution. What I do believe is that there is a wide array of little solutions to the much larger problem. No one thing will fix this for us, but each and every one of the little solutions will hopefully add up to a way out of the problem we've drilling ourselves into for the last century.]]> Fri, 17 Jun 2022 10:28:41 +0000 https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148562#148562 Changing times : That lithium batteries in EV's... https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148560#148560 Author: lostagain
Subject: 15104
Posted: 17 Jun 2022 at 6:59am

That lithium batteries in EV's can alone provide enough storage for the world's electrical grids is utopian thinking.  Such a proposition fails to take into account that the approximately 2B ICE vehicles will be replaced gradually as they become affordable for individuals and institutions.  Until there is adequate density of EV batteries available to share on a "smart" charging system, there won't be enough storage to meet the storage requirements created by wind and solar generating systems (provided we construct these as fast as we should).  Such a proposition also assumes that everyone who has an EV will connect it to a "smart charging" system and share their batteries.  In as much as batteries have a life cycle of charging and discharging, there may be those who don't want to put their costly batteries through charge/discharge cycles on a public shared grid.  StephenH points out this problem and I think he is probably correct.  The article OG cited is an opinion, not a fact.  I hope it is true, but we cannot, as I stated before, put all our eggs in one basket.  

And, as I previously stated, the environmental issues of lithium, nickel mining need to be mitigated.  It is easy to dismiss these concerns provided you don't live in one of the countries being affected by this activity.  I doubt anyone would welcome such a mine on the property next to his/her farm.  We can overcome many of these issues, but to be on the safe side, we need to keep exploring new possibilities.


]]> Fri, 17 Jun 2022 06:59:34 +0000 https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148560#148560 Changing times : Let's hold out for this: Mr... https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148558#148558 Author: offgrid
Subject: 15104
Posted: 17 Jun 2022 at 5:47am


Let's hold out for this:

Mr Fusion

]]> Fri, 17 Jun 2022 05:47:06 +0000 https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148558#148558 Changing times : Add to that, And fusion energy... https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148556#148556 Author: StephenH
Subject: 15104
Posted: 16 Jun 2022 at 4:45pm

Add to that, And fusion energy is always just over the horizon.]]> Thu, 16 Jun 2022 16:45:39 +0000 https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148556#148556 Changing times : So here's my question. We... https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148553#148553 Author: offgrid
Subject: 15104
Posted: 16 Jun 2022 at 1:58pm

So here's my question.

We have an excellent EV battery technology available today. Does the job well for most uses, and is undergoing continuous improvement and enjoying the benefits of economies of scale due to massive investment. But it, like all large scale industrial activity, has it's issues.

But those are nowhere near comparable to the enormous environmental and social impacts of oil extraction, transportation, refining, more transportation. and all the pollution associated with those. That's not even mentioning the GHG emissions from the vehicles thenselves or the dependence of oil prices on the geopolitical situation du jour. Putin sneezes and we have $5.00 gas...

Would you actually choose an ICE vehicle with all those problems over an EV with Li batteries, assuming range was not an issue for you?

If so then IMO that is a case of the perfect being the enemy of the good, and falls into the same category as those who reject nuclear power because you have to deal with the radioactive waste, wind turbines because they can kill birds, or solar because it uses what otherwise could be farmland.

Nothing is or ever will be the perfect solution, the scale needed to meet humans' energy needs is just to big.]]> Thu, 16 Jun 2022 13:58:56 +0000 https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148553#148553 Changing times : Originally posted by lostagainBottom... https://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15104&PID=148549#148549 Author: GlueGuy
Subject: 15104
Posted: 16 Jun 2022 at 10:46am

Originally posted by lostagain

Bottom line, lithium/nickel batteries alone can't do the job.  The supples of lithium and nickel are limited and the extraction process is very damaging to the environment.  Three quarters of the known lithium deposits are in Chile, Argentina, and Bolivia, all in very fragile ecosystems.  Nickel mining is also problematic.  Most comes from Indonesia, Australia, and Russia.  Low grade nickel ore is open pit mined with terrible environmental damage.  Though EV battery storage will be a major element of any electric grid storage system, much, much more will be needed beyond the capacity of EV vehicles.  We must keep an open mind to all viable and environmentally responsible methods for energy storage.  Putting all our eggs in one basket will not end well for humanity nor our planet.

I'm not as worried about lithium as I am about cobalt and nickel. All the EV manufacturers are experimenting with battery technologies that reduce and/or eliminate the need for those metals. Lithium has many alternative sources (EG geothermal vents, seawater, dry lake beds).

Another thing I heard about on Science Friday was the idea of polymer batteries. They are not as energy dense as lithium, but the possible recharge cycles is astronomical compared to lithium. Science Friday
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