2013 R-Pod furnace problem?
Printed From: R-pod Owners Forum
Category: R-pod Discussion Forums
Forum Name: Podmods, Maintenance, Tips and Tricks
Forum Discription: Ask maintenance questions, share your podmods (modifications) and helpful tips
URL: http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=9384
Printed Date: 09 May 2024 at 10:25pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.64 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: 2013 R-Pod furnace problem?
Posted By: ToolmanJohn
Subject: 2013 R-Pod furnace problem?
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2017 at 7:01pm
|
Well of course this happens. I am trying to sell my R-Pod and now that we are having what seems like an absurd early Spring, I am getting a few calls about my Pod. That's great. Today, I put propane on the Pod, cleaned it out, and tested all the appliances (except the Hot water heater, and the water system which is winterized). I am plugged into 120VAC shore power, no batteries on board, they are resting comfortably in the basement. Everything worked just as it should. I leave the fridge in propane mode and let it run. Oven burners no problem, Furnace starts and makes heat too. A few hours go by and the person interested shows up. We go around the camper, go inside, I start turning things on. Everything works, except.... The furnace will not start. I set the thermostat to 80°F, fan is in Au (AUTO), but it will not turn on. All I get is a "click" from the furnace itself. Shut of the thermostat, try again."click".. No fan, no nothing. I checked the fuse (7.5 amp) it is fine. Well... Stumped.. Could the thermostat have gone bad? I don't have the manual handy for troubleshooting but I figure it will say "call a dealer". Started to go down the YouTube superhighway of DIY, but changed my mind and came here for some expert knowledge. ------------- 2017 ATC 7X20 Custom Toy Hauler 2013 R-Pod 177 (SOLD) 2013 VW Touareg TDI |
Replies:
Posted By: Podster
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2017 at 6:50am
|
Check to make sure that you have good power and ground where it should be. My guess is you lost a power or ground connection. POD owners have seen failed crimp camp connections on the PODS. I had some myself. Check the power and ground wires for continuity from the panel to the the controls. Make sure the power is off and you are completely disconnected before you do continuity checks. Including battery power. If all the wire feed checkout go to component level trouble shooting. The blower motor fail to start can be caused by low voltage: a failed DSI control board, failed thermostat control, failed sail switch, failed time start delay relay switch, maybe even a failed high limit switch, and anything in between. Good luck Sir, ------------- Cliff & Raelynn Ranger 4.0/178 (1/2 ton 5,800lb tow capacity) |
Posted By: ToolmanJohn
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2017 at 9:30am
|
Well.. I have more diagnostic results. I plugged in the camper again this morning (it was left disconnected from power all night, no batteries). BTW the DC voltage out of the converter is 13.76 volts. The furnace fan blows, normal whoosh noises, and it starts making heat.. OK??..WHAT??? So anyway, I left it on and got together some tools for another project. About 15 minutes later, I'm back in the camper, and the furnace fan is running very SLOW, and making no heat anymore. I think it's maybe cooling down? But the fan is running very SLOW, not like normal, it has only one fan speed. I shut it off at the thermostat, and 10 seconds later it stops. I try turning it back on a few minutes later, and it is doing the exact same thing as yesterday."click"..No fan, no heat, no run... I am now wondering if it could be mechanical, bearing corrosion on the fan shaft? I guess I'll have to pull the mattress, and start removing things to investigate. I think it's a Suburban NT-20 SEQ, but I'm not certain of this. I can't find the owners manuals, I put them away to well and can't locate them. But I think once I get access to the furnace, I'll find a name plate with a model and start looking at DIY YouTube videos to see how to take it apart and check. Maybe, I'll find bad wiring along the way. I wonder which of those components you mentioned Podster could cause these symptoms. I have looked online a fair bit yesterday and this morning but couldn't find a troubleshooting chart that explains the start, then slow down, then no start situation, which is why I'm wondering if it could be a bearing failure in the fan shaft. Fan turns when dead cold, but binds when getting hot??? I dunno. Annoying, because I'm want to sell the Pod in great shape for the next owner.
------------- 2017 ATC 7X20 Custom Toy Hauler 2013 R-Pod 177 (SOLD) 2013 VW Touareg TDI |
Posted By: CharlieM
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2017 at 11:12am
|
Sure sounds like a motor speed problem A slow fan will cause the air flow sensor to open and shut off the burner. DC motors run slow for two reasons: low voltage or mechanical restrictions. A bad electrical connection could cause that but probably not be run time dependent. It’s either there or not there. A bad electronic part on the control board could be time/temperature dependent but I think the blower control is a relay which is mechanical, causes a click, either makes contact or doesn’t, and is not time/temperature dependent. I’m leaning toward unlubricated bearings. The solution will be to get in and put a voltmeter right on the blower. That will tell you if it’s electrical or mechanical. BTW, don't trust a voltmeter on the converter output without a battery connected. The converter output is unfiltered and may cause a voltmeter to read erroneously due to ripple. Things like fans and lights don't care but electronics do. The battery acts as a giant capacitor to clean up the DC. ------------- Charlie Northern Colorado OLD: 2013 RP-172, 2010 Honda Pilot 3.5L 4WD PRESENT: 2014 Camplite 21RBS, 2013 Supercharged Tacoma 4L V6 4WD |
Posted By: ToolmanJohn
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2017 at 11:36am
|
There haven't been batteries in it since last October when I Winterized. Batteries are int he basement. 13.70 volts from the converter, no change in voltage when trying to start the furnace. Now this is why I think it is likely mechanical. I tried to turn it on again. I got the small "click" which is probably the fan relay turning on, but no fan movement. So I hit the furnace housing, why not.. It starts running for about 5 seconds and stops. I continued hitting the housing but it would not move again after that. IS it possible the sail switch is bad? Could the sail switch be causing this behavior? I don't know how to open it up all the way to inspect it yet. I have pictures of the unit and it is in fact a NT-20SEQ furnace. I have taken a picture of the label. Input 19,000 BTU/hr. Output 14,400 BTU/hr I don't have a free picture hosting site yet. I'll have to look into it.
------------- 2017 ATC 7X20 Custom Toy Hauler 2013 R-Pod 177 (SOLD) 2013 VW Touareg TDI |
Posted By: CharlieM
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2017 at 11:46am
|
My point on the voltmeter on the converter output is that the meter may not be accurate. Has to do with engineer speak like peak-to-average ratio and how the meter responds to it. The sail switch controls gas flow to the burner, not the blower itself. If the blower does not come up to speed the sail switch will not allow the burner to light. Your standard "tap" test seems to prove a mechanical problem. If you can get to the bearings try some WD40. If that frees things up go back and add lubricant. WD40 is a solvent, not a lubricant. ------------- Charlie Northern Colorado OLD: 2013 RP-172, 2010 Honda Pilot 3.5L 4WD PRESENT: 2014 Camplite 21RBS, 2013 Supercharged Tacoma 4L V6 4WD |
Posted By: ToolmanJohn
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2017 at 11:55am
|
I found a manual that details troubleshooting. It's mostly about voltages, but I'll likely have to disconnect power and the gas line and remove the unit. It doesn't look like it's serviceable in place. A new one is close to $500. Maybe I can find a replacement motor/blower if that is the problem ------------- 2017 ATC 7X20 Custom Toy Hauler 2013 R-Pod 177 (SOLD) 2013 VW Touareg TDI |
Posted By: ToolmanJohn
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2017 at 2:13pm
|
Alrighty then!!! Furnace removal is easy, but only after you have done it the hard way ha ha. I wish I had a was to post pictures. I have them and it would be better, but I will explain as clear as possible where things are. If I had done it in the following order, it would have taken less than 20 minutes. Never mind the extra steps I took, I won't go into it. After having full access (mattress out, plywood panel out), gas supply off (I ran the stove top burner and shut of the gas so it would be pretty well purged), not plugged in no battery, no voltage. 1) I removed the front metal furnace grill, 2 screws (Phillips) 2) Bottom right side, Using TWO wrenches, grasp the gas supply tube with one adjustable wrench, and loosen the gas supply nut. You must hold onto the gas supply tube so nothing gets bent when loosening the nut. 3) I moved the gas supply line out of the furnace access hole. Be aware there are 4 wires entering that same right side, they will have to be disconnected after sliding the furnace out almost all the way, it won't come fully out until they are disconnected. 4) I removed 2 small screws on the bottom AND right side of the furnace, NOT the two on the bottom of the metal housing that fasten the housing to the wood framework. They are small sheet metal screws and after they have been taken out, SLIDE the entire furnace out through the front. Yeah the whole thing slides out INTO the R-Pod, ALMOST all the way, the wire connections will prevent it. The combustion intake and exhaust are not fastened to the exit pipes, they just slide out, leaving behind the exterior vent tubes. Neat. 5) Now I had to break 4 wire connections, I took pictures and drew a diagram as well so I will remember when I put it back in. There are two 12 volt DC supply wires, and two thermostat wires. I squeezed the crimp butt splice terminators to disconnect the wires without cutting them. I'll use the same type connectors when I reassemble. 6) That's it, it's out complete. Sitting on the kitchen table (much easier to work on than inside the Pod. I removed the rear intake plastic shroud assembly (11 screws) covering the squirrel cage blower fan, then loosened a setscrew to remove the fan from the motor shaft. This exposed two motor nuts. Then I could not get the motor out, the interior blower fan is too big to take the motor out that way. I had to remove 4 more screws holding the back side of the plastic fan shroud from the metal brackets they're screwed to, then it comes off, and the motor can be taken out. The motor has 2 wire, black (ground) and red (+12VDC), they are connected to a ground bus and the furnace control board respectively. it is also double shafted. each end has a shaft, as there are 2 separate fans. I cut of the motor connectors to gain access to the bare wires, then held them to the 12V battery (int he basement).. The damn motor is FINE. It's VERY quiet without the fans, and near silent. It turns on and off easily . I guess it is NOT the motor. I am now thinking the darn board is failing There seem to be several relays on the furnace board itself. They are soldered on (of course not easily replaceable). I tested the sail switch. It checks good, even though it can't be the problem, the fan is supposed to turn on before that sail switch activates. Looks like I'll be ordering the board from a local RV dealer. ------------- 2017 ATC 7X20 Custom Toy Hauler 2013 R-Pod 177 (SOLD) 2013 VW Touareg TDI |
Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2017 at 2:20pm
|
I think that before I went through all of that, I would have installed the battery (or batteries in the case of dual 6V) and tried it that way. I got a cheap https://www.walmart.com/ip/EverStart-Group-Size-U1-7-Lawn-and-Garden-Battery/21984263 - Everstart U1 12V yard tractor battery from Wal-Mart to put on the tongue of our R-Pod while I am preparing it to go to the factory for repairs. My dual 6V batteries have been removed since I would not want to ship them off. The little 12V battery ensures that the break-away switch will work. I wouldn't want to camp with it, but it would be adequate to smooth the 12V power to test whether it is indeed a furnace problem and not the converter unstable 12V power. Edit: I did try the furnace with this battery installed and it does work. It would not do for dry camping, but for what I need at the moment, it is adequate. ------------- StephenH Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS |
Posted By: ToolmanJohn
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2017 at 3:10pm
|
I'm going to reconnect the furnace, without the gas supply, and try installing a 12 volt battery. I am curious now. I have checked teh control board, and the motor relay (Zettler AZ2150-1A-9DEF) is working OK. I cycled it with my bench power supply and it does work, relay is strong and fine. So far, MOTOR seems OK, board relay closes with 12 VDC . Intermittent motor, weak running motor. Well I have to try with battery power instead of shore power. Jeepers.... At least I have not ordered parts. I hate it when that happens. ------------- 2017 ATC 7X20 Custom Toy Hauler 2013 R-Pod 177 (SOLD) 2013 VW Touareg TDI |
Posted By: CharlieM
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2017 at 3:23pm
|
So the motor ran fine with no fan and on a bench supply. Is it possible the motor shaft is freezing up with run time and heat, including from the combustion itself? Seems like the fan ran for a short time early in the AM. BTW, that second wheel on the motor shaft forces air into the combustion chamber. That's what keeps it burning at higher altitudes, as opposed to the free air design of the WH.
------------- Charlie Northern Colorado OLD: 2013 RP-172, 2010 Honda Pilot 3.5L 4WD PRESENT: 2014 Camplite 21RBS, 2013 Supercharged Tacoma 4L V6 4WD |
Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2017 at 3:41pm
|
Just to clarify, I did have shore power plugged in. With the small battery, I do not want to overtax it. I think it would be good for a few hours, but it does not have but a fraction of the capacity of my dual 6V batteries. I have not tried running my furnace or anything in the R-Pod on the converter only except for the LED lights and that for a short period.
------------- StephenH Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS |
Posted By: ToolmanJohn
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2017 at 5:03pm
|
I thank everyone for their input! The fan motor is dual shaft, one end has the squirrel cage induction blower, and the other end has the interior circulation fan. When on a battery the motor alone is fine. No bad bushings at all. no hesitation at all. Runs fine.
The board motor relay, also tested good. I put 12 volts on the coil and it closes the relay, tested and it's OK. That leaves the whole thought now that the furnace actually NEEDS to have a battery because the converter can't run it alone, which to me is really bananas. If you were at a camground in cold weather and needed the furnace and for some reason your 12 volt battery went bad, the furnace shuts down?? I'l be testing that theory out tomorrow when I get it wired back into the camper. If it turns on lickety split with a 12V battery, I'll now that the converter can't do it alone due to ugly DC output voltage. The whole thing is very annoying, because I have shown it to 3 couples now and the furnace doesn't work.. Embarrassing. But I really hope installing the battery cures the behavior!! ------------- 2017 ATC 7X20 Custom Toy Hauler 2013 R-Pod 177 (SOLD) 2013 VW Touareg TDI |
Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2017 at 7:02pm
|
I hope it does too! Please let us know how it turns out.
------------- StephenH Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS |
Posted By: JandL
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2017 at 10:54pm
|
I have the Suburban Furnace NT-20SE in my 2012 Rpod and I have service manual and installation manual. I think they would help in trouble shooting your furnace but I don't see any way to down load PDF anymore. If some one can let me know how to download PDF's please post the answer ------------- JandL 2013 Honda Ridgeline 2012 177 2 Paynes in a Pod |
Posted By: ToolmanJohn
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2017 at 5:15pm
 SUCCESS
I put it back together, reconnected the electrical and the gas line, checked the gas line for leaks using bubble test, installed the 12 V battery, and it fired right up. So in fact, the converter cannot supply a nice stable DC voltage all by itself that the furnace likes. The battery acts as a stable buffer it appears. I ran it 12 volt only, but I expect that connecting to shore power will also now yield the same result with the battery installed. While I was in the furnace and it was apart on my kitchen table I found some burned/charred pieces of wood shavings, probably from the construction of the Pod. They looked like small burnt potato chips. They fell out when I took the furnace apart. I had smelled this every time I fired up the furnace in the Spring, but ignored it because I don't require the furnace on my trips. The furnace is now odor free, and about a loud as before, so no change there. ------------- 2017 ATC 7X20 Custom Toy Hauler 2013 R-Pod 177 (SOLD) 2013 VW Touareg TDI |
Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2017 at 5:23pm
|
Great! I'm glad you got it worked out without having to spend a lot of money on parts you didn't need. ------------- StephenH Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS |
Posted By: CharlieM
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2017 at 6:32pm
|
I love it when a plan comes together!
------------- Charlie Northern Colorado OLD: 2013 RP-172, 2010 Honda Pilot 3.5L 4WD PRESENT: 2014 Camplite 21RBS, 2013 Supercharged Tacoma 4L V6 4WD |
Posted By: Leo B
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2017 at 6:52pm
|
Nice work!!
------------- Leo & Melissa Bachand 2017 Ford F150 2021 Vista Cruiser 19 csk Previously owned 2015 Rpod 179 2010 Rpod 171 |
Posted By: ToolmanJohn
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2017 at 7:50pm
It was very very close!! I actually had ordered a motor on Amazon, then decided to remove the old one and bench test. Glad I did! I was able to cancel the order before it shipped. I also had a furnace control in my cart!! After I went back and re-read the advice and also several other web searches for furnace issues, I decided I had better try a bench test of the main board as well with a solid 12 vdc. Relief.... ------------- 2017 ATC 7X20 Custom Toy Hauler 2013 R-Pod 177 (SOLD) 2013 VW Touareg TDI |
Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2017 at 8:14pm
|
It is good that you were able to cancel the order and not have the restocking penalty. I have had plenty of "learning experiences" with things where I could not see the answer that was right under my nose (so to speak).
------------- StephenH Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS |