Weight Distribution Hitches
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Forum Name: I need HELP!!!
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URL: http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15589
Printed Date: 10 May 2024 at 5:37am
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Topic: Weight Distribution Hitches
Posted By: JP Dub (W)
Subject: Weight Distribution Hitches
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2023 at 5:00pm
I have the 2021 RPOD 196, 22.2 ft. I tow it with a 4 door Toyota Tacoma SR5 6 cylinder. I have only towed it twice so far. What weight distribution hitch should I get for it? Thank you!! 
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Replies:
Posted By: Skip
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2023 at 5:51pm
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I heard Forest River uses so thin of a frame that WDH is not recommended! ------------- Camper owner 47 years, 2 tents, 6 trailers seem to think I’ve seen it all! |
Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2023 at 6:12pm
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Skip, go by the experience of others in this forum, not by hearsay about what FR uses. Popular weight distribution hitches used by others in this forum include: Equal-i-zer (what I have) 4-point sway control (means you don't need a separate sway bar). Progress E2 (2 point sway control) Andersen No-Sway (much lighter weight, also provides both WD and sway control) Others such as Blue Ox or other brands have been used also. Any of the weight distribution hitches, especially with sway control, will improve the driving feel and give you more confidence when you are hit by crosswinds or passed by tractor trailers and busses. In addition, it will depend on your suspension, but you may want to look into SumoSprings. I installed them in our Frontier and they made a big difference, even with the WD hitch. ------------- StephenH Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS |
Posted By: Skip
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2023 at 6:22pm
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Actually I have 54 years towing and currently use an Anderson WDH, but the facts are the frame is so thin it is a joke. Call Forest River and ask, you may be surprised! Might even twist enough to pop a few front windows before they changed windows. Think they changed for no reason? I love my 189 but flimsy it is. ------------- Camper owner 47 years, 2 tents, 6 trailers seem to think I’ve seen it all! |
Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2023 at 6:41pm
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Skip, where did you hear that a WDH is not recommended for rPod trailers? Who was making this recommendation? If FR has put such a recommendation in writing, it would be very interesting to read their recommendation and the reasons for making it. ------------- Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
Posted By: gpokluda
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2023 at 8:14pm
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Skip, I towed a 2017 179 for ~60K miles with a Fastway E2 WDH. It still has all of it's windows, doors and the frame is straight as an arrow. I would highly recommend a WDH for the Rpod. Listen to the folks on this forum. They are our there towing all the time and a wealth of knowledge. ------------- Gpokluda 2017 Rpod 179(sold 2023) 2022 Escape 5.0TA 2022 Ford F150 4X4 3.5EB Triumph T120 |
Posted By: Skip
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2023 at 8:34pm
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I said I use an Anderson, one of the best, see above. Call Forest River, ask what WDH they recommend on a r pod bet you won’t get an answer, then ask do they recommend still no answers. Try it , that’s all I’m saying. Again I’m using an Anderson. Not interested in arguing, just saying you won’t get it in writing or verbally. ------------- Camper owner 47 years, 2 tents, 6 trailers seem to think I’ve seen it all! |
Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2023 at 8:42pm
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Forest River does not install them. They are a dealer installed option. Forest River did not reject a warranty claim because I had used a weight distribution hitch. I think that is evidence enough that while they won't recommend them, they won't penalize because of them. Edit: Skip, you may be an old hand at towing, but you are new to the forum from the post count. Some of us have been here for years. The total years of towing experience here are much more than your experience. Your original post did not say that you used a WD hitch, just that you heard that FR's frames were so thin that WD hitches were not recommended. You and I both used WD hitches because the benefit of having them outweighs the low probability of it causing a problem with the frame.
------------- StephenH Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2023 at 3:08am
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Just going to "weigh" in here a little. he he.
First, Skip and JPDub, welcome to the forum. Skip, you are absolutely right on two of your points. Rpod frames are undesigned. And, WDHs do increase frame loading. But, that doesn't mean that the wdh is the reason the trailer frame might fail in any specific case. There are many factors involved. The forces and moments imposed by the wdh depend on its design and how much its tensioned. Those forces and moments act in combination with the ones imposed by the way the trailer and tow vehicle are loaded, the shape of the pothole or curb you hit (you're not going to bend your trailer frame while your parked after all), the rig speed, the axle torsion arm attachment position, the presence or absence of a trailer lift kit. There might be some other factors I'm forgetting at the moment. IOW it's complicated. So let's look at this from the manufacturer's perspective. FR and Lippert (who produce and warranty the frames and suspensions for FR) are well aware that WDHs are in widespread use by their customers. They know they would kill their sales if they disallowed them. So they aren't going to do that. They also know better than anyone how lightly constructed their trailers are. They deal will the warranty claims and repairs every day. So they're not going to formally approve use either. Because if they did, they they'd have to establish limitations. And that opens that whole complicated can of worms. Even if they could distill all that into a set of restrictions, which I doubt, they would have to try to write that section of their warranty in a way that a consumer could understand. And then they would be forever dealing with questions and evaluations of customers specific use cases. They'd probably have to hire a bunch of engineers, customer service reps, and attorneys just to deal with that one issue. So they're not going to do that either. So their approach, and I think most other manufacturers', is to neither approve or disapprove, and deal with each customer's warranty claim as it comes up. If that claim can be attributed to something that is excluded in their written warranty terms, they won't fix it. If it can't, then they will. This approach isn't unique to the trailer industry btw. No product warranty exclusions I've ever seen, and I've written many myself, can address every possible issue that might occur. Customers are very creative and are always finding new ways to break the stuff you sell them. So where does that leave us as owners? Right where StephenH said. Be an educated user. Evaluate the risks (bent trailer frame) and rewards (safer and more stable towing) of using a wdh on your particular rig loaded as you prefer to travel, on the road surfaces you like to travel on. Use this and other forums to learn. Please actually weigh your loaded rig so you have real data and you're not guessing. Then decide for yourself if the benefits outweigh the risks. FWIW, most of us here with tow vehicles lighter than an F150 have decided using a wdh is worth it. Most folks with a TV in the F250 category or higher have not, and in that half ton truck range in the middle some do and some don't. I can tell you what I decided to do after analysing the forces and moments of my particular pretty extreme use case as best I could by hand calcs lacking access to a conputer finite element model of the trailer. In my case (heavily loaded 179 with 5000 lb rated TV, lots of boondocking on rough forest service roads), I decided a wdh was absolutely necessary. It increased trailer loads at two locations: roughly where the tongue assembly is welded to the frame rails, and at the axle and the axle to frame attachment point. The tongue area loads weren't that bad, but the axle area loads were, even without a wdh. The wdh increased them by about 5 to 10 percent IIRC. So I tried to keep the weight behind the axle as low as possible by moving all my heavy supplies forward in the trailer. No bicycles or other stuff except the spare hanging off the back. Kept holding tanks located behind the axle empty as much as possible. I also reinforced the axle itself, as others on this forum have done. If I'd kept the rpod I would have probably reinforced the frame at the axle attach point too, but I decided to sell it for other reasons before could get to that. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2023 at 5:55am
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Skip, I can only speak for myself but I'm sure it applies to the other board members too, no one was trying to argue with you. Your comment about the frames being very thin are well known and have been discussed considerably on this board. Virtually everyone who has posted on that topic agrees with you. You said you "heard" that WDH's are not recommended. My question about who made the recommendation that you heard, or where you heard it, was in good faith. There is so much stuff published in the internet that is questionable, that knowing the source can help sort out whether such a "recommendation" is credible. I agree with OG and StephenH that FR and many other trailer manufacturers may be ambiguous or ambivalent about the use of WDH's, but I am not aware of any outright recommendation against their use for rPods or other equivalent FR products. When I bought our 172, the rPod dealer sold me a WHD, which I, through more luck than brains, thought was a necessary accessory for the trailer. I'm glad I got it and still use the same E2 on with my Sonoma.
------------- Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
Posted By: Skip
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2023 at 8:58am
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I wonder why wall to side separation in in the front only? The WDH forces? Rusty screws should also rust on the back and sidewalls! One reason I use and Anderson is I can adjust my “forces” on my skimpy frame and have to some degree. Thanks for the “welcome” but I have been here for several years just don’t post. I do read everyday just don’t comment. Glad I struck a nerve , food for thought: front window issue= torque? Wall separation = torque? I’m 75 years old and remember when the frames were frames and a WDH couldn’t flex a tubular member as it was not installed for weight or cost. Bye……. ------------- Camper owner 47 years, 2 tents, 6 trailers seem to think I’ve seen it all! |
Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2023 at 9:32am
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Wall to side separation can be due to frame flexing which can happen with or without a WDH. Also, where does water kicked up by the tow vehicle's tires hit? Other areas may get wet, but how much water is driven in by the force of being kicked up and the aerodynamics of the movement down the highway? If something isn't perfectly sealed, which is likely with quickly constructed trailers, then water can find its way in and cause the rusted screws. Those old days of heavy frames also meant that the trailers would weigh much, much more and require a larger vehicle to tow. I know people who have Airstream trailers, and they also have their share of problems. Perhaps they are not the same as those of RPods, but they are not immune to problems. If you are going to compare, you would need to compare within the same class/price range. I think you would find that the problems we experience are likely the same as other brands. We have this great forum where we can go to find out how to address those problems.
------------- StephenH Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS |
Posted By: Skip
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2023 at 9:53am
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You think I don’t like my pod, wrong I love it! I also loved my unique TrailManor and my Coachman bunkhouse. My point is WDH on a pod can cause issues, his original question was what should he use? My response was maybe nothing, a good sway bar if you have a decent tv. Sure doubt you would recommend a 10000 lb set up ------------- Camper owner 47 years, 2 tents, 6 trailers seem to think I’ve seen it all! |
Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2023 at 10:13am
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I have the 600/6,000 lb setup. It is adequate. I would not recommend the 10,000 lb set-up either. If I had known about the Andersen hitch, I would likely have gone with it. When I purchased my RPod in December, 2015, that is what the dealer recommended and installed. If someone has a suitable tow vehicle with heavy duty suspension, then some form of sway control would be sufficient. I am partial to the electronic sway control. I have the Hayes Sway-Master. The Tuson Electronic Sway Control is good because it controls the brakes on each side separately. So does the Lippert Sway Command. With these, one does not have to worry about disconnecting it before backing up, so no bent hitch parts. My Frontier was not adequate by a long shot. The WD hitch is needed, so I use it.
------------- StephenH Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2023 at 10:21am
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Ok Skip, certainly didn't mean to offend if I did. Let's change it to welcome to the group of active participants on the forum. We'd love for you to share the benefits of your experience here.
And a good discussion/debate about wdhs is great too, thats how we all learn. For better or worse, the cost of steel and other materials is ever increasing, as is the cost of fuel and the proportion of lighter vehicles on the roads. All that combines to reduce the design margins we used to see in vehicle frames. And in structures of all kinds for that matter. Look how little wood goes into home construction today compared to 40-50 years ago. I miss that solidity too, but it's gone forever I'm sure. One reason bought a 27 year old class B this time, it's built like a brick you know what. Re front frame bending vs rear, it's been a few years since I did my calcs, so I don't recall the exact numbers. I do recall that bending failure at the rear axle occurred at around 2 Gs or a bit lower, which is a pretty low number. You can easily get that if you hit a pothole or curb hard. So the design is marginal at that spot, which is born out as there have been several frame failures there reported. And a wdh can increase that by a couple hundred pounds, so around the 5 to 10 percent range. I recall the front frame loads are less, and to my knowledge no one has reported a frame failure there. Yet. The wdh increases the load there too. Flexing (aka deflection), is a separate calculation from yeild in bending. Deflection isn't permanent, bending beyond the yield point is. Can't now recall if I looked at that before or not. At the time I was more interest in understanding all the bent trailers. So yes it is possible that displacement could be high enough to flex the wall attachments but not high enough to bend the frame permanently. And no doubt too much defection will damage the trailer box. I'll try to revisit this when I get the chance. Skip, can you clarify how the Anderson wdh allows more or different adjustment of trailer frame loads than other wdhs? AFAIK all of them are adjustable for tension, which is what changes the TV front rear balance, and the frame and trailer axle loading. ⁹ ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: gpokluda
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2023 at 10:27am
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Skip, FWIW When we purchased our Rpod new, the RV dealer told us the exact same thing they told you. No WDH needed, just go with a friction bar. After a couple of short trips, I ordered a WDH from Etrailer. ------------- Gpokluda 2017 Rpod 179(sold 2023) 2022 Escape 5.0TA 2022 Ford F150 4X4 3.5EB Triumph T120 |
Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2023 at 2:02pm
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Glad to see that someone else on this board is 75 besides me. I've adjusted our Fastway E2 for two different trucks and trailers. It was mostly just a matter of moving the hitch bracket or the torsion bar L brackets up or down, to achieve a level TV. Fastway has a helpful video on how to do it. Since all WDH's are used on different TV/trailer configurations, it'd seem that they'd all have to have some kind of adjustment capacity. I never towed our 172 with our Ford and it may have not really needed a WHD for that weight of trailer. It sure smoothes out the ride with our Sonoma, though. ------------- Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
Posted By: jato
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2023 at 3:06pm
Yes, welcome to the forum. As you see there is a wealth of information to be gleaned here. I have benefited many times from others wisdom and experience on this forum. I also was told when picking up our brand new 2011 177 back in March 2011 that no WDH was needed, he sold a $ 40 Curt friction bar and that is all that is currently used 12 years later. Tow vehicles that have been used mainly include the following: '08 and '13 Explorers and '11 and '17 F-150. Over 41,000 miles towed under extreme weather (snow, sleet, hail, high cross-winds) and road (8-10" water, gravel w/potholes, sand, two tracking) conditions. Have no complaints - the 177 has held up extremely well. ------------- God's pod '11 model 177 '17 Ford F-150 4WD 3.5 Ecoboost Jim and Diane by beautiful Torch Lake "...and you will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free." |
Posted By: JP Dub (W)
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2023 at 6:09pm
| Thank you all for the info. |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2023 at 8:40am
It is a common misunderstanding that you are supposed to adjust your wdh to achieve a level tow vehicle. That is not the case. Understanding why is important because it also explains why using a wdh can be so helpful in improving ride, handing, braking, and safety while towing, especially with smaller shorter TVs. Consider what happens when you hitch up a trailer with say a 500 lb tongue weight. Where does the extra 500 lbs go? If you said the rear axle you'd be right but that's only the beginning. Think of the TV as a kids teeter totter with the pivot at the rear axle and a kid sitting on the front axle, and nobody on the other end of the teeter. The kid is holding himself up, all his weight is on his feet. That's a tow vehicle with no trailer. Now, put another kid on the other end of the teeter. That's the equivalent of dropping the trailer hitch onto the ball. What happens? The first kid suddenly has less weight on his feet. If they're well balanced neither kid has to hold himself up. But it's not like the kids are suddenly weightless, their weight has to go somewhere. That somewhere is the pivot point of course, which suddenly went from having no weight on it to having the weight of two kids. Same thing happens to the rear axle of the TV. It always ends up with more weight on it than the actual tongue weight. How much more depends on 3 things. The tongue weight. The tow vehicle wheelbase and the distance from the rear axle to the ball. Just like when you balance a fat kid with a skinny kid on a teeter by putting the skinny kid farther out or the fat kid farther in, having a long wheelbase tow vehicle results in less lightening of the front axle than if you have a short wheelbase TV. That's why smaller shorter wheelbase vehicles are not as good at towing as longer ones, and the worst ones for towing have a short wheelbase and a long rear overhang. In fact if you had a vehicle where the rear overhang was the same as the wheelbase and you put a 500 lb tongue weight on it, the weight on the rear axle would be 1000lb and the front axle weight would go down by 500lbs. Ok, so now back how a wdh helps and how to set it up. Your tow vehicle, whether it's a pickup or an SUV, is designed to carry load primarily in the rear. It's rear axle is built heavier for that reason. But of course you don't want more weight back there than necessary. Your front axle is expected to have a certain amount of weight on it in order for it to steer and brake the vehicle properly. So if you can you want the front axle to be carrying it's normal weight just like it would without the trailer. The wdh achieves both these objectives by applying a torque (technically it should be called a moment because nothing is actually moving) at the ball, which tries to rotate the trailer back on it's axle while pushing the tow vehicle down on its front axle). These two moments balance each other, so nothing moves. If they didn't the whole rig would want to flip over on its back. Your wdh is set up correctly when the weight on the front axle is the same as it was before you hung the trailer on the ball. That means that the tongue weight and no more than the tongue weight has been added to the rear axle, which achieves that objective of keeping the rear axle load low. But the rear of your tow vehicle will have the additional 500lbs on it so it will be sitting lower than it was before, and the vehicle will not be level. That's ok, it's what the engineers who designed the TV intended. If you tensioned the wdh further trying to get the TV level, you would be stressing both the trailer and the TV more than necessary, and also putting more weight on the front axle than was intended by it's designers. So how do you know when you have the right wdh tension to load the front axle correctly? By using suspension height to gauge load weight. Park your rig in a flat parking lot. Put a piece of painters tape on each front fender directly above the axle. Measure the height to the tapes from the ground with the trailer hitch off the ball. Then drop the trailer onto the ball and tension up the wdh until the height of the tapes drops back down to what it was, but no farther. Hope all that is clear... ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2023 at 9:38am
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That is a great explanation, very understandable. ------------- StephenH Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS |
Posted By: jato
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2023 at 9:59am
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+2 Thanks for taking the 'mystery' out of this important topic. Although it was only experienced a couple times as we would tow our 177 up some rather steep inclines on loose gravel in the Rockies and felt the front tires slipping a bit (on both our '08 and '13 Explorers) it now makes sense. Fortunately the fully loaded 177 was only 2900 lbs and tongue weight was just under 295 lbs. After replacing one of our batteries a couple years ago with a Trojan T-1275 (85 lbs) the tongue weight shot up to 320 lbs with a fully loaded trailer. ------------- God's pod '11 model 177 '17 Ford F-150 4WD 3.5 Ecoboost Jim and Diane by beautiful Torch Lake "...and you will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free." |
Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2023 at 2:24pm
While our F150 does not "need" the WDH, we discovered during our evacuation for the CZU Complex fire (when we did not hook up the WDH for expediency), we discovered that it made an unfortunate adjustment to our headlight aim. The headlights ended up high, such that they would blind oncoming traffic. Not a desirable effect. ------------- bp 2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River 2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost |
Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2023 at 2:36pm
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Thanks for the detailed explanation, OG. My reference to mostly getting the vehicle leveled out was a quick and dirty summary of the Fastway video that basically illustrates the steps you described. I have no idea whether the video's steps apply to other WDH's since I've never adjusted any other kind but Fastway. They also provide detailed written instructions, which are basically the same as the video. ------------- Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2023 at 4:56pm
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LA, I figured you might have been taking a shortcut in your post but I thought it might help out our less experienced members to explain the whole process.
I had a Reese Pro and it has the same setup procedure in it's instructions. I think I looked at one or two others and they did as well. It's really the only right way to do it if yug think about it. Bad things can happen if you overtension to get the TV level, and under tensioning kinda defeats the whole purpose of having the wdh to begin with. But yeah, even with a wdh, you may need to adjust your headlights for towing, just like you would if you were carrying a big load in the bed of your truck all the time. Conincidentally I was just looking at how much I can really tow with my Chinook in case we want to take my wife's horse with us on a trip. There are quite a few parks that have set aside special equestrian campsites, and they tend to be less crowded and overbooked than standard sites. It turns out that while the Chinook is built on a heavy dually chassis, it has a really long rear overhang so suffers from the teeter totter problem in my post. I'm going to be able to tow the horse trailer with it but I'll need a wdh. I gave my old one to the couple I sold my rpod to so there's another expense for me to get back into RVing. Can't plan for everything I guess. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2023 at 6:21pm
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You could have the horse pull your Chinook. Not only would that eliminate the need for a WDH, but would also be a net 0 for green house gasses. Of course, your wife might get a little irritated with you for making such a suggestion. ------------- Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2023 at 2:13am
Maybe him and 249 more of his friends. That's about what the old 7.5 liter V8 up front is rated for. And I need every one of those ponies. That sucker is heavy, weighed in at around 9000 lbs empty at my landfill scales. Still, I suppose it could work, but where would I keep all the hay? I'd need about 80 bales per day. And then a trailer twice the size of my horse trailer to carry the hay. And then another 20 more horses to haul that. And hay for them too. I don't like where this is heading.... How did our pioneer ancestors ever do it? Oh, I know, on their best days they covered what we do in 15 minutes. Not counting days off for grazing the horses, which they could do but we can't cause it was open range back then. And let's not forget that around 5 to 10 percent of them died on the way from Cholera or whatever. That's no fun. I think Id be much better off converting the Chinook to electric drive and running it off the 1500 watt solar array I'm putting on the roof. By my rough calculations I ought to be able to travel between 5 and 10 miles a day that way. That'd probably be at least as fast as the pioneer method, and a whole lot less work. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: gpokluda
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2023 at 10:47am
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Well, OG, you could always wait for the inevitable Mr. Fusion now that sustained fusion reactions have been achieved. Should only be a few decades away. ------------- Gpokluda 2017 Rpod 179(sold 2023) 2022 Escape 5.0TA 2022 Ford F150 4X4 3.5EB Triumph T120 |
Posted By: gpokluda
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2023 at 11:20am
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Something else to add to the WDH topic is the use of suspension enhancement devices on the TV such as SumoSprings, helper leaf springs, air bags, and progressive spring enhancements such as the Roadmaster Active Suspension. I think I lucked out in my application on my 2017 Frontier 2WD to which I installed SumoSprings(blue) as well as utilized a E2 WDH. Many many trouble free miles with that combo, just made sure I installed the Sumos first then worked the WDH install and adjustment from there. ------------- Gpokluda 2017 Rpod 179(sold 2023) 2022 Escape 5.0TA 2022 Ford F150 4X4 3.5EB Triumph T120 |
Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2023 at 12:59pm
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+1 on the SumoSprings. I opted for the middle grade though as the blue were not quite enough for my 2010 Frontier. ------------- StephenH Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2023 at 1:33am
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understand that helper springs and wdhs perform entirely different functions.
Get a wdh to redistribute the load between your 3 axles. That's important if needed. Get helper springs to stabilize the rear axle. That too is important if needed. Neither one will in any way increase your load capacity, that's set by the manufacturer. Helper springs do nothing to put weight back on the front axle or to reduce load on the rear axle, because they don't create any torque to counter the moment produced by the trailer. WDHs don't stabilize the rear axle because they don't reduce lateral forces, only vertical. (The wdhs that combine sway control do improve rig lateral stability, but that's yet a 3rd function). In my opinion, there is no reason to add either helper springs or a wdh or anything else simply to level the TV. It's designed to squat when loaded. Having a level TV is a cosmetic issue. If your headlights are out of adjustment then adjust them, much easier than fooling around with hitches or helper springs. If you're bottoming out then you're overloaded, relocate or reduce your load. I suppose you might want add helper springs for improved ground clearance though. StephenH is correct, if you have helper springs of any type, and that includes adjustable air springs, you need to set them up first and then adjust the wdh to obtain the proper front axle load. If you try to do it the other way around your wdh tension will be screwed up when you adjust the helper springs. Heres an example of how things can go wrong. Say you have air springs and use them to level the TV with the trailer attached. Then you decide you still need a wdh because of squirrely handling. So you add the wdh and adjust it by the book to get the front axle load back up. Oops now guess what, the TV is no longer level, it's pointing down in front. So you let some air out of the air suspension to get it back to level. What are you left with? You just dropped the height of the ball so increased the tension on the wdh springs. So now you have too much load on the front axle and trailer axle. So, go back and readjust the wdh one more time. Then quit fiddling around and go camping. For myself, I never bothered with helper springs even though my Highlander squatted some with the trailer on. I wasnt worried about the squat because I knew everything was within load specs. My rear axle sway and stability was fine towing and I didn't want to change the ride and handling in normal non towing use. I didn't have ground clearance issues and never bottomed out. I adjusted my headlights down a little so they didn't blind folks with the trailer on but I could still see fine without it. Good enough for me. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: jato
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2023 at 7:22am
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Phew, that is quite the epistle! And here all I do is hook up a 177 on the hitch, add a simple $ 40 Curt friction bar to the mix and go. ------------- God's pod '11 model 177 '17 Ford F-150 4WD 3.5 Ecoboost Jim and Diane by beautiful Torch Lake "...and you will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free." |
Posted By: gpokluda
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2023 at 7:58am
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OG, not questioning your explanation or scientific analysis, however it seems contradictory to recommendations from some manufacturers, namely Escape where we just purchased our trailer. They highly recommend a level rig front to back especially with the fifth wheel models. Is it because of the tandem axle configuration? I find it highly unlikely that they are recommending a level aspect for cosmetic reasons. Again, not trying to start an argument. ------------- Gpokluda 2017 Rpod 179(sold 2023) 2022 Escape 5.0TA 2022 Ford F150 4X4 3.5EB Triumph T120 |
Posted By: hogone
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2023 at 10:35am
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an epistle??!! i would say the a creed!!! dam, I dont even use a friction/sway bar. jon ------------- Jon & Pam 2013 RP177 2010 F150 2017 HD Streetglide 2009 HD Lowrider CHEESEHEAD |
Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2023 at 11:14am
Not to be argumentative, but using a WDH on a 5th wheel is not possible; at least with all the 5th wheels I know. The load point for a 5th wheel is MOL on top of the rear axle, so it changes the weight distribution equation from a completely different perspective. ------------- bp 2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River 2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2023 at 11:16am
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Epistle? Let's just say its an opinion and
call it good.. Gpokluda, no disagreement I don't think. I think the Escape folks were probably talking about getting the trailer level. I agree with that. That has lots of benefits, one of which is so you can climb in and sleep flat while on the road without having to fool with the tongue jack. I was referring to the TV not needing to be level. You can pretty easily get the trailer level by just adjusting the ball height. To get the TV level without overtensioning the wdh is probably going to require helper springs or an air lift kit. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: gpokluda
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2023 at 11:54am
GlueGuy. Really? I didn't know that just having towed our new Escape 5th wheel 1500 miles back home from Canada. I guess I better send the new E2 back. Explains why I couldn't hook it up  ------------- Gpokluda 2017 Rpod 179(sold 2023) 2022 Escape 5.0TA 2022 Ford F150 4X4 3.5EB Triumph T120 |
Posted By: gpokluda
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2023 at 12:14pm
Well, no actually they are talking about the rig in total; TV and Trailer being level. Additionally, while putting a packet of instructions together for the new owner of our Rpod, I came across the Fastway setup instructions for the E2 hitch. The setup is pretty clear that, with the TV and trailer loaded as they would be for a normal trip, the distance between the trailer frame rails to the ground should be equal front and back and the distance from wheel opening to ground on the TV front and back should likewise be equal. To me, that means the TV and the trailer are level as a unit. Anyway, I have no dog in this fight since at 10am MST, our 179 left with its new owner for new adventures. My final thought is this: Level and balance are mostly good things and my gut and experience tell me that this applies to RVs. Yep, there are outliers in any distribution but for the most part, the norm is good. If the manufacturer of a trailer and the manufacturer of the hitch system recommend level with while staying within the weight capacity of both the TV and the trailer, it is probably a good idea to follow those recommendations. Maybe we are saying the same thing, maybe not. I'm out. ------------- Gpokluda 2017 Rpod 179(sold 2023) 2022 Escape 5.0TA 2022 Ford F150 4X4 3.5EB Triumph T120 |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2023 at 8:42am
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Well I'm puzzled by what you're referring to.
I looked up the Fastway E2 round bar hitch instructions on their website and saw the same procedure we've been discussing: measure the TV front axle height before and after hitching the trailer and try to get after to be at least halfway back down to before and preferably all the way back but no further. Then after thats done they tell you to adjust the ball height to get the trailer level. sounds right to me... ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2023 at 9:32am
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For the Fastway e2 round bar, here is the setup manual: https://www.fastwaytrailer.com/pdf/e2-round-bar-hitch-instructions.pdf - https://www.fastwaytrailer.com/pdf/e2-round-bar-hitch-instructions.pdf If the WDH is properly adjusted the front height is either equal the unladen position or up to half the distance between the position of the front with no WDH while the trailer is hooked up and the unladen position. There is a sweet spot that is described in the manual. If the front position is higher than the sweet spot, then not enough weight is being transferred to the front and the torsion bars needed adjusting per the instruction manual. If the front is below the sweet spot, then too much weight is being transferred to the front axle requiring a different adjustment to the torsion bars. As OG suggests, it seems the ideal is reaching the same front height position as the unladen TV, but not below it. Presumably the TV before loading is more or less "level" with the ground, but different' suspension vary so the pre and post loading measurements are critical. The instruction also discuss the position of the trailer pointing out that it should also be more or less level with the ground and that the hitch head inside top on the trailer should be even with what would be the top of the hitch ball, or very slightly above it. They have a nice diagram to illustrate it. See figure 1, page 10. And last but not least, be sure to attach all the warning stickers they give you so that you can wear them off from normal use and other users can blame you for their failure to read the manual. ------------- Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2023 at 4:07am
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Look at it this way. The TV has additional weight on it when you hitch up the trailer. That weight will be the tongue weight minus whatever weight the wdh has shifted back to the trailer axle.
Let's say your TV was level to start with without the trailer. Now let's say your tongue weight is 500 lbs and the wdh shifts 100 lbs of that to the trailer axle. That leaves 400 more lbs on the TV, distributed between it's two axles. If you have gone though the recomended wdh front suspension adjustment process and gotten back to your unhitched front suspension height you know none of that 400 lbs has gone up front, bc if it had then there would be more front suspension squat. Since the extra 400lbs didn't just disappear it has to be sitting on the rear axle. So the rear axle will be sitting lower than it was when you were unhitched, and the TV will not be level. Can't be any other way. How noticeable that TV squat is depends on the tongue weight, how long the TV wheelbase is, how long the TV rear overhang is, and how stiff it's suspension is. If you have a big or long TV or a light trailer its probably going to be pretty darn close to level. But if you have a high tongue weight and a lighter, shorter wheelbase TV, it will be quite noticeably tail low when hitched, even with a properly set up wdh. My Highlander was like that. It has a pretty short wheelbase and my 179 ran close to the Highlander's tongue weight limit. It was noticeably low enough at the rear that I at first thought my wdh wasn't tensioned enough. I even went through the scales to convince myself I had set things up right. The tension on the wdh needed to get the TV even close to level would have been way too high, over 1000 lbs, enough that it would probably have overstressed the frame of the TV and or the trailer. My wimpy old arm muscles likely aren't strong enough to tension it that much without help from the tongue jack. That's why I wanted to warn folks not to try to tension their wdhs to get their TVs level. That is, unless you need the excercise and like fixing bent frames or broken axles. Then feel free to build up those biceps and have at it. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2023 at 5:49am
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Seems to me the key is to do your set up on a level/flat surface so the measurements don't get messed up. The TV and trailer should all be on the same flat plane. Once properly adjusted, the tension bars will be a little below the L brackets and unless you are really strong, you're not going to be able to put them into running position. The solution is simple, just raise the tongue with the tongue jack until the bars can be positioned, put in the retainer clips, then lower the the tongue and stow away the jack in the full up position and you're ready to go. To unhook, use the reverse process. They give you a pry bar to help muscle the tension bars into position or pry them off the L brackets, but that is way too much work and if you ever got hit by a tension bar popping off under pressure you could really hurt yourself. It bears repeating that this procedure presumes proper adjustment of the WDH in the first place per the manual's instructions and that the WDH is properly sized for your trailer and TV.. That means you vehicle may not be perfectly level, but is within the range described in the manual.
------------- Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2023 at 7:13am
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Yep, the only way to get the rig set up correctly is to be on totally flst pavement.
Different design wdhs tension up differently. With the chain type like I had you connected the top of the chains to pivoting hooks and then using a pry bar rotated the hooks up and over center. In the process the chains tension the wdh bars. Then you put in clips to hold the pivoting hooks in position. All wdhs are easier to tension up if you connect the hitch then use the jack to raise both the trailer and the TV. Then tension. To me that has a couple of drawbacks though. First is you have to raise and lower the hitch twice. Second is that if you do it that way you don't get a good feel for how much tension you're applying to the bars. On our relatively light trailers if you have a lot of tension on there something is probably not quite right. Like maybe I hadn't had my morning coffee yet and miscounted chain links when hooking up. And last but not least you don't get your morning upper arm workout. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2023 at 3:05pm
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One advantage of raising the combination of hitched tow vehicle and trailer is that you verify that the trailer is hitched up correctly and not just appearing to be hitched up. That is a good reason to do so. ------------- StephenH Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS |
Posted By: Sparky_0591
Date Posted: 01 Feb 2023 at 4:05pm
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We own an r-pod 191 for the last three years. Just last spring I installed an Andersen WD hitch and I'm pleased with its performance. https://andersenhitches.com/product/weight-distribution-hitch/
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