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Ethanol free gasoline

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URL: http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15562
Printed Date: 08 May 2024 at 4:56pm
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Topic: Ethanol free gasoline
Posted By: David and Danette
Subject: Ethanol free gasoline
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2022 at 8:51am
  I have used ethanol free gasoline for many years for all small engines that we have but I have thought that with newer engines perhaps it's not that important. So I thought I would ask others opinions if ethanol free gasoline should still be used for newer small engines. We have bought a new 2500 generator and thought being a new generator maybe the engine will be OK using gasoline with ethanol that times have changed. Thank you

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2018 Vista Cruiser 19BFD (2018-              
2012 Vibe 6503 (2014-2019)
2009 r-pod 171 (2009-2014)
Middle Tn
2014 Ram 1500 Quad cab





Replies:
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2022 at 10:22am
I don't think anything has changed. The problem with ethanol is that it would rather mix with water than gasoline so when exposed to water it drops the gas and grabs the water, becoming a big mess of unburnable gunk in the bottom of whatever contā¶ainer you have it in. 

Since there's always water in the air if you're not burning the gas up quickly then you'll have the gunk in the fuel tank, carb float bowl, fuel lines  etc. 

If you're running the engine all the time then the ethanol gets cleared through before it can absorb too much water, but if you let it sit, which most small engines do, then it's a mess. 


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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: campman
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2022 at 10:23am
Good day.

I will try to keep this brief, as I have been known to ramble on about small engines and what needs to be done to ensure a longer life.

ALL FUEL for small engines (or any engine that is infrequently used) should be stabilized to prevent fuel breakdown (results in gum and varnish deposits in carburetors, etc). Depending on the quality of the fuel, this can start as soon as a month or two after you bought it.

Fuel that has ethanol must be stabilized with a fuel treatment designed for it as it breaks down (and absorbs moisture while doing it).

Ethanol is junk in my books, but we have to deal with it so it doesn't destroy our small engines!

Use the best grade of fuel you can get and stabilize it right away, run your engine till the carb is empty for short term storage, run the tank empty or drain it and then run it empty for longer storage periods.

I hope this helps. (If you can get gas with no ethanol, keep using it, but still stabilize it!)

Andy





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Andy and Laurie
'16 F150 5.0 4X4 w/factory tow pkg
'21 RP192
"If the women don't find you handsome...at least let them find you handy!"
Red-Green


Posted By: furpod
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2022 at 12:10pm
All fuel for storage or small engines here, is ethanol free, and treated with PRI-G.
Unless it's for the tractor, then it's treated with PRI-D.
We haven't had a fuel related issue since we started that, about a decade ago.


Posted By: campman
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2022 at 2:14pm
Excellent to hear you already care for your fuel, so many have no idea that consumer fuel can deteriorate quickly.

I spend quite a bit of time every year, helping people (neighbours, normally...and we just moved to a different province again this spring so have a new ones to help now) clean up their badly running small engine/carb's as they can't figure out what went wrong.

Where we live now in Manitoba only a few stations sell ethanol free gas. It is usually called marine gas as boat motors are especially susceptible to ethanol related damage.

Older boats and motors were not designed for ethanol so engines and rubber fuel lines and seals etc are easily damaged by ethanol as well. My own rule of thumb is any pre 1990's boat motor(and its fuel lines and seals) are most likely not ethanol ready and would need close inspection to confirm before using ethanol containing fuel.

Not quite on topic, but good to know anyways.

Have a good one,

Andy





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Andy and Laurie
'16 F150 5.0 4X4 w/factory tow pkg
'21 RP192
"If the women don't find you handsome...at least let them find you handy!"
Red-Green


Posted By: gpokluda
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2022 at 2:44pm
From my days in the small engine and motorcycle business, we always told customers to drain fuel if the motor was not going to be used for an extended (two or more months) and also drain the carburetors or run them dry. If they planned to use the motor periodically during that period, but not regularly, then a good fuel stabilizer was needed.

Another tip was to avoid the evil temptation to start and run the motor for a couple of minutes, just to make sure it starts. Doing that causes condensation in the motor and mixed with bi-product from partial combustion could cause pitting in the cylinder walls. If you are going to start a motor, make sure it reaches operating temperature for 5-10 minutes before shutting it down.


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Gpokluda
2017 Rpod 179(sold 2023)
2022 Escape 5.0TA
2022 Ford F150 4X4 3.5EB
Triumph T120


Posted By: hogone
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2022 at 4:24pm
I have been using just plain old unleaded gasoline my whole life (whatever they sell at Walmart, Quick Trip, BP, Phillips, Shell, etc) which I believe is 10% ethanol and 87 octane.  I use it in my lawn equipment, genset, vehicals, chainsaw, pressure/power washer, motorcycles (I do use 93 octane in those), etc. Any of those that may sit for awhile, I put seafoam in the tank, run, and park.  Never had an issue starting them back up, and run just like the day I parked them.  Alot of my equipment is pretty old, including one of my bikes which is a 2009. One year I let my power washer sit for over 2 years, 2nd pull the machine fired up!  Maybe I have been lucky!  jon

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Jon & Pam
2013 RP177
2010 F150
2017 HD Streetglide
2009 HD Lowrider
CHEESEHEAD


Posted By: campman
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2022 at 7:01pm
I would say luck had no part in it, your fuel was stabilized before you left it for 2+ years.

I just sorted out a pressure washer for a contractor working for us finishing our basement. It had sat unused over winter and summer with a full tank of regular unleaded. When he needed it, of course it wouldn't run properly.

I used a new to me product called K100s+ (I tried it out on my F150, which had 140,000 kms and had lost a little of its zip. I treated a tank and it did the trick, the injectors worked as they are supposed to! A wonderful product in my books).

As for the badly running pressure washer, I ran 2 tanks of fuel and K100 additive through it, and it was good as new...it barely ran when it rolled into my garage before Christmas and now it is treated and ready for summer work.

Cheers,

Andy



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Andy and Laurie
'16 F150 5.0 4X4 w/factory tow pkg
'21 RP192
"If the women don't find you handsome...at least let them find you handy!"
Red-Green


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2022 at 3:58am
So why worry about ethanol gas and small engine maintenance when most applications you'd want a small engine for you can now  do electrically? 

If you already own a gas powered tool fine but as those get replaced do consider changing them out for electric ones. Easier, quieter, cleaner, and in the long run cheaper. 

At this point almost all my small gas engined tools have been replaced. Chainsaw, weed whacker, pruning  saw, leaf blower, hedge trimmer, push mower, wood splitter. All much better than the gas ones I used to have. My riding mower is electric now too. The only small combustion engines  I have left  are in my chipper and portable generator. The chipper will be next and the generator has been converted to propane which solves the gasoline deposits problems. 


Now on to converting the next size up, my daily driver and farm tractor That I plan to accomplish in 2023. 

I look forward to the day when I don't have any gasoline or diesel around the place at all.  That will take a bit longer for the tow vehicle and RV.

 And that leaves my airplane, which I can't see electrifying in my lifetime unfortunately. Aircraft engines are horrible e mantenance headaches and avgas is astronomically expensive but batteries will have to get at least 3 to 4x better in energy density to replace gasoline in aviation. At least avgas doesn't have any ethanol in it, but it does still have plenty of lead.


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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2022 at 10:11am
Why haven't they eliminated the lead in aviation gasoline?  I sure wouldn't want to live in the glide path of an airport that services planes that use leaded gasoline, especially if I had young children (which thankfully I don't).  We learned about the effects of lead in exhaust fumes on children many years ago via schools by busy roads.  I suspect if the gasoline producers were faced with a deadline of 4 or 5 years to get the lead out of the fuel or shut down, they'd find a way to make unleaded aviation gasoline.

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Never leave footprints behind.
Fred & Maria Kearney
Sonoma 167RB
Our Pod 172
2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost


Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2022 at 10:37am
Originally posted by lostagain

Why haven't they eliminated the lead in aviation gasoline?  I sure wouldn't want to live in the glide path of an airport that services planes that use leaded gasoline, especially if I had young children (which thankfully I don't).  We learned about the effects of lead in exhaust fumes on children many years ago via schools by busy roads.  I suspect if the gasoline producers were faced with a deadline of 4 or 5 years to get the lead out of the fuel or shut down, they'd find a way to make unleaded aviation gasoline.

I certainly understand the sentiment. However, there is a small airport in the south bay (Reid Hillview) that has been in operation for decades as things built up around it. The homes and businesses that came in after the airport was operating have been trying to shut down that airport for many, many years.

Their latest gambit was to measure the levels of lead in the soil around the airport, and they discovered that the lead levels are actually lower in that area than they are around freeways and expressways. Speculation is that despite the lead in aviation fuel, the volume (amount of traffic) may be key contributor. That said, they have phased out 100 low lead at that airport. It will probably happen to most places around the country as time evolves. The issue after that is modifying aircraft engines so they can tolerate fuel without lead.


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bp
2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River
2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost


Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2022 at 11:56am
That's good to know about the lower levels of lead in the air around Reid Hillview and probably other general aviation airports.  I guess the lead gets disbursed by the wind aloft.  I imagine that it is partly a function of how windy it is around the facility.  Just the same, it wold still be best if an unleaded fuel could be developed and the engines modified.  Seems aviation engine technology is far behind the technology of automotive engines and has been that way for some time.  I recall being surprised when I was involved in the defense of some aviation cases in the 1990's how many aircraft engines were still stuck in the technology of the 1930's and 40's.

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Never leave footprints behind.
Fred & Maria Kearney
Sonoma 167RB
Our Pod 172
2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost


Posted By: David and Danette
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2022 at 5:20pm
We are camping for six weeks in Florida with no electrical hook up and the sites we have do not have full sun for our 140 watt solar panel. So we need to use our generator to provide electricity to keep the battery charged. We ended up buying a Westinghouse 2500 inverter generator to replace our Champion 3100 inverter generator which is twice the weight and uses twice as much gasoline. A lot of campers have been using solar panels but still need to use their generators at times.

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2018 Vista Cruiser 19BFD (2018-              
2012 Vibe 6503 (2014-2019)
2009 r-pod 171 (2009-2014)
Middle Tn
2014 Ram 1500 Quad cab




Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2023 at 10:22am
We've had a Champion 3400 watt dual fuel generator for several years.  It's never been operated on gasoline; only propane.  Though it's been used very little, it runs great and with the propane hookup it's easy to connect and there is no messy gasoline to deal with.  The output drops about 200 watts with propane, but it's still plenty to start and run the AC with the soft start.  The biggest issue with it is that it's heavy and the bed of our truck is high, but even in my dotage, I've been able to lift it into onto the tailgate without help.  If we were to buy another generator, I'd look into getting two smaller dual fuel units to hook in a series, but I doubt it will wear out by the time we hang up our trailer hitch.

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Never leave footprints behind.
Fred & Maria Kearney
Sonoma 167RB
Our Pod 172
2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost


Posted By: Pod People
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2023 at 6:43pm
We use a Honda eu2200 that I converted to propane.We love it!
I CAN carry/lift it, but most of the time I get help from Laura.  We found that a simple 3/4"dowel about 2' long inserted through the handle makes it easy for 2 people to carry it.
travel safe and often
Vann


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Vann & Laura 2015 RPod 179
https://postimg.cc/0zwKrfB9">


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2023 at 6:58am
There is an FAA approved unleaded fuel substitute for 100LL avgas. It is UL94 and is it now available at Reid Hillsville and a few other airports that have banned 100LL (I think, but I've never been to an airport that has it). 

The problem with adopting UL94 is the octane rating. Lead is in 100LL as an octane booster to prevent knock. Airplane engines run at essentially full power all the time, so it's a much more demanding use case than auto engines. Knock will destroy an aircraft engine in very short order.

 So higher compression engines can't run the lower octane  rated UL94. Because the volume of gasoline used in aviation is so low (unlike Jet A for turbine aircraft) it is unrealistic to expect both fuels to be produced, delivered and stored at these small GA airports. So if you own a certified airplane that isn't approved to operate on UL94 and you can't get 100LL at your airport you're pretty much screwed. 

And while there those higher performance airplanes are less common than your run of the mill Cessna 172s etc, they temd to be used more frequently and are thirstier so use relatively more fuel. They are also owned by corporations or wealthy individuals who have more political clout in how their local airports are managed. 

Then on top of that there is the aversion to change in the aviation community. Change brings risk and risk is bad. If you get bad fuel in your car you wind up on the side of the road calling AAA. If you get bad fuel in your airplane you can wind up a lawn dart in a cornfield. 

In my case I own an experimental aircraft so I can do what I want, and it's engine is one that Lycoming, the manufacturer, has approved for UL94. So I could run the stuff and would, if it was available at my airport. In the meantime I could also use premium ethanol free gasoline, which is readily available locally and what I run in my remaining small engine at home 

But I won't, even though it's much cheaper than 100LL. For 3 reasons:

It's a PITA. Airplanes use a LOTof fuel.  I'd be hauling 6 or 7 five gallon cans back and forth to the airport all the time.

It's dangerous. The fuel supply and storage infrastructure for avgas is much more carefully controlled than for auto gas. Who knows what junk might be in the tank down at your local gas station. There is my risk aversion kicking in.

I'm not worried about the lead exposure either to me or to the general public. The volume of fuel burned and the amount of lead in it is really tiny. There are a lot more concerning environmental issues to worry about than the lead in 100LL. 

So I'll keep using the 100LL 
 till it's not available, then I'll switch over to whatever becomes available, unless the price of  100LL gets beyond my cost vs pain/risk  tolerance, which its close to doing. It's around $6.50 a gallon at my airport now, that that's cheap compared to a lot of places. 





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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold



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