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Fridge not cooling

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Forum Name: I need HELP!!!
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Topic: Fridge not cooling
Posted By: jato
Subject: Fridge not cooling
Date Posted: 01 Jul 2020 at 6:43pm
Fortunately this came at the end of our getaway to the U.P this morning.  Our fridge is out of our 2011 177 which we have owned since March 2011.  This morning it was very warm inside, 72 degrees which was even warmer than the outside temp of 60.  It was on the 4th of 5 dots, nearly the coldest it can go.  Checked the stack, it was very warm (normal) also the combustion chamber - nice blue flame (normal) and heard the bi-metal switch kick on the muffin fans last night when it was 82 outside (normal).  So I see no obvious leak on the back side of the refrigerator.  Is there any way to recharge this or since it is approaching 10 years of age, am I looking at replacing?  Just used it a couple weeks ago at the Traverse City R-Pod Rally and it performed flawlessly and was very cold inside.   Thank you all for your advice. 

-------------
God's pod
'11 model 177
'17 Ford F-150 4WD 3.5 Ecoboost
Jim and Diane by beautiful Torch Lake
"...and you will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free."



Replies:
Posted By: mcarter
Date Posted: 01 Jul 2020 at 6:47pm
Not cooling in any mode?

-------------
Mike Carter
2015 178
" I had the right to remain silent, I just didn't have the ability."


Posted By: jato
Date Posted: 01 Jul 2020 at 6:52pm
No, just returned home and turned it all the way to 5 dots (coldest) it now reads 73 inside, flame is still running a nice blue, stack is hot, and muffin fans are humming away. What I will do now, thanks for the thought, is turn off the propane and try the 110.  Will report back in a few hours.

-------------
God's pod
'11 model 177
'17 Ford F-150 4WD 3.5 Ecoboost
Jim and Diane by beautiful Torch Lake
"...and you will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free."


Posted By: mcarter
Date Posted: 01 Jul 2020 at 7:19pm
Have you tried not on propane?

-------------
Mike Carter
2015 178
" I had the right to remain silent, I just didn't have the ability."


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 01 Jul 2020 at 7:23pm
Any residue around the coils or burner? The sodium chromite they put in with the ammonia to reduce corrosion leaves a yellowish/green residue. Ammonia smell? 

Around 10 years is about the typical life of a RV fridge so you're about the right age for a replacement cycle. I guess the way to look at it if it needs to be replaced is that it doesn't owe you anything at this point. 


-------------
1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: jato
Date Posted: 01 Jul 2020 at 7:59pm
Thanks OG.  Checked for yellowish/green residue.  None seen, still looks nearly new except for some road dust.  No ammonia smell, been sniffin' around the back of fridge for the past 20 minutes, neighbors think I must be crazy, sniffin' around like that!LOL

-------------
God's pod
'11 model 177
'17 Ford F-150 4WD 3.5 Ecoboost
Jim and Diane by beautiful Torch Lake
"...and you will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free."


Posted By: jato
Date Posted: 02 Jul 2020 at 5:38am
Update at 6:30 this morning.  Running fridge on shore power since 7 pm last night.  Inside temp - middle shelf reads 36 degrees, freezer made ice as well.  So it comes to how to properly clean orifice, combustion area and flue stack.  Compressed air and wire brush to clean?  What diameter wire brush?

-------------
God's pod
'11 model 177
'17 Ford F-150 4WD 3.5 Ecoboost
Jim and Diane by beautiful Torch Lake
"...and you will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free."


Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 02 Jul 2020 at 9:48am
Do not use a wire brush to clean the orifice. Use 93% isopropyl alcohol or denatured alcohol to clean the orifice. Compressed air works for the burner slots, but a soft brush with some alcohol wouldn't hurt there either.

For the flue, remove the top angled cap of the stack. You can then pull the spiral insert out and clean it. If you can get a bore brush down into the stack, you could brush that out. Otherwise, compressed air. Once things are clean (use a light and mirror to check),

One more step may be needed given the age of the trailer. Disconnect the propane line at the refrigerator and at the regulator. Place a container under the end of the hose at the regulator end. Use compressed air to blow the oily residue out of the propane line. I've done this a couple of times when my refrigerator was not working well. Reconnect, leak test, and purge the lines. It may take several cycles for the refrigerator burner to light as that branch of the line will need to purge the air also.

If all goes well, your refrigerator should be back to working well on propane again.


-------------
StephenH
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,...

http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods
Former RPod 179
Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS


Posted By: jato
Date Posted: 02 Jul 2020 at 8:40pm
So the report is in!  Fridge running on shore power with battery running the 2 muffin fans.  Temp dropped just under 3.5 degrees/hour.  Fridge running on shore power with battery running the same fans.  Temp has dropped degrees/hour.  Started running at 3 pm with interior temp in fridge 92 while outside temp was 94.  At 9 pm temp has dropped to 67 degrees in refer or 4.16 degrees/hour with outside temp at 78.  HOPEFULLY by morning things will all be well. 

Took angled cap off stack and removed spiral inset out - no need to clean - appeared nearly brand new.
Tapped on chimney stack - nothing came out.
Removed the combustion chamber with a 7/16 and 1/2 inch wrench.  Tried to tap the orifice out - no luck so i used a product called "Citrol" by Schaeffer's and soaked it for a couple minutes and blew out with compressed air.  Blew out combustion area as well as orifice both directions and also the area where the flame comes out of combustion area - appears like a 1/8" diameter bullseye surrounded by several much smaller holes.  Blew out some crud but not much.  Will see in the morning if I have a similar temp as the electric gave.  If not, I will remove the propane hose and blow out with compressed air to see if any oil comes out.

Thank you mcarter, offgrid, and Stephen H.  This is what makes this forum so great, having a bunch of well learned individuals who willingly help those like me who haven't arrived there yet.


-------------
God's pod
'11 model 177
'17 Ford F-150 4WD 3.5 Ecoboost
Jim and Diane by beautiful Torch Lake
"...and you will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free."


Posted By: jato
Date Posted: 03 Jul 2020 at 9:37am
Here we sit with fridge running on propane for 19 hours.  Setting is on 4 of 5 dots, 5 being the coldest.  Temp has stabilized at 41 degrees, not near as cold as when I was on electric where it went down to 36.  However the fridge side is sitting in the sun and current ambient temp outside is 92 and I also checked inside the freezer and it was able to make ice overnight during the past 14 hours.  So what temps do you all have when running propane?  Is 41 acceptable or do you think this is on its way out because it is nearly a 10 year old unit?  The only thing I have left to do is to take off the supply line  from the regulator to the fridge and see if there is any oil or residue to blow out.



-------------
God's pod
'11 model 177
'17 Ford F-150 4WD 3.5 Ecoboost
Jim and Diane by beautiful Torch Lake
"...and you will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free."


Posted By: marwayne
Date Posted: 03 Jul 2020 at 11:00am
Try and shield the fridge vents from the heat of the sun https://postimg.cc/jWFBJ24z">
By the way my pod is a 2011 and it works just fine
https://postimg.cc/CRvQW5tW">


-------------
If you want something done right, do it yourself.
2011 RP172, 2016 Tundra 5.7 Litre, Ltd.




Posted By: jato
Date Posted: 03 Jul 2020 at 11:15am
That is most impressive marwayne, like everything else you do on your R-Pod!  My temp has not changed inside the fridge although outside it is up to 94.  I have the fridge side facing north so the sun only hits it until 10:30 so now it will reside in shade the rest of the day.

-------------
God's pod
'11 model 177
'17 Ford F-150 4WD 3.5 Ecoboost
Jim and Diane by beautiful Torch Lake
"...and you will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free."


Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 03 Jul 2020 at 1:13pm
I can't find a chart to show the relationship between ambient temperature and refrigerator temperatures for absorption refrigerators. At this point, I would blow out the LP line and see if it makes a difference. On our recent trip to the coast, we were maintaining temps in the 30's in ambient temperatures in the high 80's while set to 4 bars.

-------------
StephenH
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,...

http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods
Former RPod 179
Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 03 Jul 2020 at 5:15pm
Haven't seen such a chart either, probably because an RV absorption fridge is a a pretty complex device thermodynamically. Check out this slide presentation:


https://www.slideshare.net/IanLouiseCelestino/simple-vapor-absorption-refrigeration-system - https://www.slideshare.net/IanLouiseCelestino/simple-vapor-absorption-refrigeration-system

If you go to around slides 17-20 you can see that the COP of an absorption fridge is related to three temps (To-condenser/absorber), Te -evaporator, and Tg -generator). I didn't run the numbers, but since To (essentially the ambient temp) is showing up twice, in the denominator in one case and subtracted in the numerator in another) COP is going to fall off quickly with higher ambient temps. And if COP drops cooling capacity drops along with it. To run the numbers you would need Tg, essentially the hot air from the propane flame or electric element. I found one reference for that which is around 350F. Note that you would need to do this calc in degrees above absolute zero (Rankine or Kelvin degrees), not in F or C. 


The reference with the Tg of 350 was this, which is an interesting discussion of what causes damage to RV fridges and how to prevent it. 

https://myamericancoach.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/ARPRV-Absorption-Fridges.pdf - https://myamericancoach.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/ARPRV-Absorption-Fridges.pdf





-------------
1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: marwayne
Date Posted: 03 Jul 2020 at 5:27pm
Jato, Cleaned up the fridge outside and turned it on, went from 23* C to 6* C in about 4 hours on LP

-------------
If you want something done right, do it yourself.
2011 RP172, 2016 Tundra 5.7 Litre, Ltd.




Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 03 Jul 2020 at 6:50pm
Marwayne, that sounds like our weather here in NV last week.  23℃ in the afternoon and down to near 0℃ at dawn.  Shocked

-------------
Never leave footprints behind.
Fred & Maria Kearney
Sonoma 167RB
Our Pod 172
2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost


Posted By: marwayne
Date Posted: 03 Jul 2020 at 7:02pm
It's been cool and wet.

-------------
If you want something done right, do it yourself.
2011 RP172, 2016 Tundra 5.7 Litre, Ltd.




Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 03 Jul 2020 at 7:53pm
Last time I was in Edmonton, a Feb. about 10 or so years ago, it never made it to 0℉.  It was especially entertaining watching cars trying to go up a moderately steep hill and slide back down to the bottom to try once more.  I think I'd rather winter in Vancouver or Victoria.  Wink

-------------
Never leave footprints behind.
Fred & Maria Kearney
Sonoma 167RB
Our Pod 172
2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost


Posted By: marwayne
Date Posted: 03 Jul 2020 at 8:12pm
If you can afford to live there, and I couldn't stand the grey rainy weather in the winter

-------------
If you want something done right, do it yourself.
2011 RP172, 2016 Tundra 5.7 Litre, Ltd.




Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 04 Jul 2020 at 5:54am
I didn't think you needed fridges in Canada? Big smile






-------------
1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: jato
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2020 at 8:36pm
Originally posted by marwayne

Jato, Cleaned up the fridge outside and turned it on, went from 23* C to 6* C in about 4 hours on LP


That was the good news as the next day the fridge temp went up to 57 during the daytime with outside temperature at 95.  Fridge was in the shade, facing north.  Had my son with grandkids up for the weekend.  He had to show off his new 25' speedboat so we spent most of the weekend tooling around on Torch Lake, plenty to see on a lake that is over 19 miles long. 

Now that they left I can get back to business.  I took off propane lines and blew them out from the regulator to the combustion chamber.  Let the combustion chamber part sit in mineral spirits for 20 minutes and blew out with compressed air.  Then did another stint with WD 40 soaking it well, letting it sit for 10 minutes and then blew that out.  Assembled everything and fired up about 1 hour ago.  Outside temp is 84, fridge temp has dropped from 86 to 83.  Will see if anything improves after all this fussing, which I rather do than purchase a new fridge!


-------------
God's pod
'11 model 177
'17 Ford F-150 4WD 3.5 Ecoboost
Jim and Diane by beautiful Torch Lake
"...and you will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free."


Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2020 at 10:07pm
Was I correct in that there was likely a lot of oily liquid in the propane line? When I used compressed air, I did so at the refrigerator end and the regulator end was where the residue came out.

-------------
StephenH
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,...

http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods
Former RPod 179
Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS


Posted By: jato
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2020 at 4:50am
When I opened the lines, nothing came out, lines were very clean and dry.  The only part I have not messed with at this point is the area between where the rubber propane line ends and the small metal propane line which leads the the combustion chamber begins.  There are 2 fixtures in between located there.  The first is a rectangular object measuring 1" tall by 1/2" wide by 1/2" deep with a brass/gold colored nut on one side.  The next is about 2 inches wide by 1.5" tall and cylinder shaped with 3 black electrical wires leading to it.  I didn't poke into those two objects only because the line from the regulator was dry and the small metal line coming out of it (attached by a 7/16" nut) was dry also.  It is now 5:45 am, outside temperature is 68 and fridge temp. is 41.

-------------
God's pod
'11 model 177
'17 Ford F-150 4WD 3.5 Ecoboost
Jim and Diane by beautiful Torch Lake
"...and you will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free."


Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2020 at 9:00am
One other thing that could be happening is that the pressure of the system might be low. If I recall correctly, the pressure should be 11" water column. I've seen instructions on how to make a tester. There is a small threaded port in the junction where the flexible hose ends that has a plug in it. That could be used to attach a tester.

You could try replacing your regulator and see if that makes a difference. They can go bad over time and not allow the proper pressure.


-------------
StephenH
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,...

http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods
Former RPod 179
Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS


Posted By: jato
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2020 at 9:37am
Thanks Stephen.  Never thought about a faulty regulator.  The one I have is the original from January 2011.  IF the regulator is bad wouldn't I see a problem running the burners on the stove or a lack of heat when the furnace runs?  Also is there any way to check or test the regulator to see if it is in proper working order?

Update on fridge temp.  This morning at 6:45 fridge temp got to 37, fantastic.  However now it is 10:30 am and it now reads 39.  However I also have a thermometer sitting a few inches from the refrigerator lower grill in the direct sunlight and it is reading 98 so hopefully that is why the temperature is rising.  In a couple hours the sun will be far enough south so the fridge side will be totally in the shade for the duration of the day.


-------------
God's pod
'11 model 177
'17 Ford F-150 4WD 3.5 Ecoboost
Jim and Diane by beautiful Torch Lake
"...and you will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free."


Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2020 at 9:50am
If it got down to 37, then it is likely working well. The only way I know of to check the regulator is to do a pressure test. You could purchase one from Amazon or make one. The site linked below talks about making one. The actual instructions are linked within the page.

http://www.loveyourrv.com/building-simple-rv-propane-leak-tester-u-tube-manometer/ - http://www.loveyourrv.com/building-simple-rv-propane-leak-tester-u-tube-manometer/

Edit: This is the link for how to build a manometer:

http://www.rverscorner.com/manometer.html - http://www.rverscorner.com/manometer.html


-------------
StephenH
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,...

http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods
Former RPod 179
Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS


Posted By: Pod_Geek
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2020 at 10:10am
Any chance that the fridge works well when it's level and doesn't work so well when it's tilted?

As mentioned, gravity is critical to the RV refrigeration process. Without it the ammonia liquid will not properly flow to the evaporator coils to cool the refrigerator. Having your rig off level not only disrupts the proper flow of the ammonia, but it also allows ammonia crystals to form inside the refrigerator’s tubing. Over time, these crystals accumulate until flow is restricted or blocked. The problem with these crystals is that no amount of vibration will cause them to dissolve–they are permanent–like plaque inside our arteries.

https://www.truckcamperadventure.com/rv-refrigerators-how-level-should-they/#:~:text=As%20mentioned%2C%20gravity%20is%20critical,coils%20to%20cool%20the%20refrigerator.&text=Today%2C%20Norcold%20recommends%20that%20their,level%20front%2Dto%2Dback. - https://www.truckcamperadventure.com/rv-refrigerators-how-level-should-they/#:~:text=As%20mentioned%2C%20gravity%20is%20critical,coils%20to%20cool%20the%20refrigerator.&text=Today%2C%20Norcold%20recommends%20that%20their,level%20front%2Dto%2Dback.


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2020.5 R-Pod 195 Hood River
2018 RAM 2500 6.4L


Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2020 at 10:32am
From previous posts, it seems as if the 'Pod is level enough. It works on 120V just fine. It is the propane side which has been a problem. That is why my replies have been on how to check that subsystem.


-------------
StephenH
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,...

http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods
Former RPod 179
Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS


Posted By: Pod_Geek
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2020 at 10:45am
Originally posted by StephenH

From previous posts, it seems as if the 'Pod is level enough. It works on 120V just fine. It is the propane side which has been a problem. That is why my replies have been on how to check that subsystem.

Oh yeah...minor detail.

Well, at least my post may function as a public service announcement to folks who may not have realized how important a level RV is to fridge function...


-------------
2020.5 R-Pod 195 Hood River
2018 RAM 2500 6.4L


Posted By: jato
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2020 at 1:04pm
Yes, we are level, thanks for bringing up an often overlooked major point.  Just got in from mowing our 3 hour yard.  Checked the inside fridge temp and it read 53!  NO!  Went out to check and saw the lights all blinking, that was a good thing, ran out of propane.  So now it is switched over (about a 1 minute job) and now I will have to wait to see how this pans out over the next couple days.

-------------
God's pod
'11 model 177
'17 Ford F-150 4WD 3.5 Ecoboost
Jim and Diane by beautiful Torch Lake
"...and you will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free."


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2020 at 1:09pm
jato, do you still think its much different on propane than 120V? Reason I ask is that its been up and down in temp while on propane as the outside temp has varied. Once you get a feel for how it is on propane over the next couple of days you might want to go back on electric and see if it is really any different. 

-------------
1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: jato
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2020 at 6:17am
Finally able to report back after a few days of testing.  Running electric I found fridge temp at 6 am 35-36 @ 6am going up to 48 - 50 during the hottest part of the day 2-4 pm where temp would rise to 48-49 degrees.  On the propane side fridge temp at 6 am would be 35-39 and at the hottest part of the day 2-4 pm temps would be 49-51.  This was done with a totally empty fridge with the exception of a pan of water placed in the freezer in the evening - each time under all circumstances ice would be made by morning.  Outside temperature during the hottest part of the day varied from 90 - 95 F.

My next test is to find out if these are normal operating temps with the existing outdoor temps and putting pre-cooled items (water and beverages) inside so that it isn't totally empty.  It will now be 50% filled with the above - will be interesting to see if this will allow the interior temps to be more stable during those hot parts of the day.

2 questions still emerge.  Are these temps that I give 'normal'?  Are these similar to what your temps are under somewhat similar conditions?

I have been told that the electric mixer valve may be faulty, that when I turn up the call for colder temps, (eg. - from 3 to 4 bars or 4 to 5 bars) that I should observe a larger flame which will produce more heat to cook the ammonia more vigorously giving me a colder temp.  When I went from 4 to 5 bars I did not observe a larger flame, it appeared to my eyes the same size.   Is that true, have you observed a larger flame when doing this?   Thanks for your patience, this has been quite a learning experience thus far.


-------------
God's pod
'11 model 177
'17 Ford F-150 4WD 3.5 Ecoboost
Jim and Diane by beautiful Torch Lake
"...and you will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free."


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2020 at 6:22am
The difference between gas and electric temps seems like its kinda in the noise. What were the outdoor temps at 6am and in the hottest part of the day? 

-------------
1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: jato
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2020 at 6:32am
Sorry offgrid.  6 am temps were 63 to 74 degrees.  2-4 pm temps were 90 to 95 degrees.

-------------
God's pod
'11 model 177
'17 Ford F-150 4WD 3.5 Ecoboost
Jim and Diane by beautiful Torch Lake
"...and you will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free."


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2020 at 6:48am
Ok so the ambient temps are varying by about 25 degrees morning to afternoon and the fridge temps are changing by about 15 degrees, And there is really only about a degree or so difference between gas and electric.

What I would tentatively conclude from that is that your gas and electric sides are both working about equally well, and obviously the fridge is cooling. Where I'm heading is I'm not sure there is anything wrong with it at this point. 95 is hot, it might not be able to maintain really cold temps is all. 

I think you're on the right track by adding more cold water/ice to the fridge. That will definitely help  stabilize things more. Water (or any kind of drink) has very high thermal mass (1 btu per lb per deg F to be precise, and 144 btu per lb to melt ice). If you put say cold canned drinks in there (compared say to a gallon jug) you will also have a lot of surface area to transfer heat between the water in the cans and the air in the fridge and that will help keep the afternoon temps in there lower. Try it and see, but as you say, put the liquids in cold and give it a couple of days to re-stabilize.   



-------------
1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2020 at 8:40am
+1 to OG.  Freeze some water filled Costco nut containers and put a few in the refrigerator to simulate what it would be full of food and drink and you may find that your temperature range varies a lot less.  Air heats up and cools off pretty fast.  The thermal mass of liquid and food items helps keep the temperature down when it is hot outside and the refrigerator is not as efficient as it is in cooler weather.




-------------
Never leave footprints behind.
Fred & Maria Kearney
Sonoma 167RB
Our Pod 172
2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost


Posted By: podwerkz
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2020 at 8:58am
Originally posted by jato

I have been told that the electric mixer valve may be faulty, that when I turn up the call for colder temps, (eg. - from 3 to 4 bars or 4 to 5 bars) that I should observe a larger flame which will produce more heat to cook the ammonia more vigorously giving me a colder temp.  When I went from 4 to 5 bars I did not observe a larger flame, it appeared to my eyes the same size.   Is that true, have you observed a larger flame when doing this?   


The thermostat works similar to your fridge at home, the cooling unit runs longer, or maybe continuously, to cool the interior when you set the unit to a 'higher' setting, which is a cooler temp.

You might try moving the thermistor on the cooling plate, or adding one of those little battery powered RV fridge fans inside the fridge, or adding an extra 12v fan on the exterior condenser fins, all of these can help, but otherwise these units are not the most powerful fridges ever made. On the other hand they sip propane...extending our ability to stay 'out there'...


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r・pod 171 gone but not forgotten!


Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2020 at 9:57am
+1 to Podwerkz. I added a cooler similar to this one to the inside of mine:

https://smile.amazon.com/DutchAire-RV-Refrigerator-Fin-Fan/dp/B089BWZ3PX/ - https://smile.amazon.com/DutchAire-RV-Refrigerator-Fin-Fan/dp/B089BWZ3PX/

I also had a couple of muffin fans from computers in the house and I added them to the outside top cover, set to blow out to help extract hot air from the rear compartment. between the two, my refrigerator seems to keep temperatures better provided I periodically clean the propane system. Still, on hot days, especially with the sun beating down, the temperature in the refrigerator will rise into the 40's or 50's, especially if the AC isn't running to help keep the inside of the 'Pod cool. The heat coming from all sides is just too much for an absorption refrigeration system to handle. It would probably need twice the insulation to be able to keep cool in 90+ degree temperatures.

OTOH, I was able to purchase a Free Piston Sterling Cooler which operates on 12V, either from an automobile style 12V plug directly or through a transformer for AC power use. This thing is able to keep right around 4C (about 39F) even in high 90's temperatures. It was used by drug companies for transportation of medications (no biologics or organs), and was donated to ReStore where I purchased it. Unfortunately, it is nearly impossible to find new ones at any sort of reasonable price. It is very efficient, and will not kill the battery overnight as it takes much less power to run. The newer Danfoss compressor refrigerators are also supposed to be efficient enough to use, but I have no experience with them.


-------------
StephenH
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,...

http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods
Former RPod 179
Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2020 at 7:47pm
When I looked at the free piston stirling coolers before it looked like their COP's were roughly in line with the Danfoss vapoor compression refrigeration units, maybe not quite as good. So, they're going to us a similar amount of energy to do the same work or a bit more. But the FPSC's are capable of reaching much colder temps, so they're really good for the "last mile" for vaccine cold chain distribution to remote clinics, etc. For use in mobile food refrigeration like in RV's the Danfoss units are maybe a bit more efficient and a lot cheaper.  Either one though consumes a lot of our very limited supply of electricity though so propane is generally a better solution for our purposes, even though the COP's of absorption fridges are really bad. Doesn't matter 'cause 5 gallons of propane contains the same energy as 100 golf cart batteries.LOL 

BTW, the Danfoss 12V compressors have been around for about 40 years, I installed many for solar powered vaccine cold chain applications in the mid 80's. Proven technology, nothing new about them. Efficiency is about the same as it was too. 


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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: podwerkz
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2020 at 8:45pm
Correct me if I am wrong, but even the Danfoss and other '12V' compressors are not REALLY 12V DC...I am under the impression they have an internal control board (and inverter or switching/buck-boost circuit) feeding the brush-less compressor windings (and possibly a field coil) a 3 phase AC voltage...although I have no idea what that voltage would be. 

Yeah, there are 12V positive and negative wires or terminals, but the windings of the compressor are something else. Otherwise, with typical 12V DC motors, we would need brushes and commutators, and these compressors do not normally have those.

Although, I have not torn into one to verify that.

At any rate, I did the typical solar powered fridge experiment most of last year...I found that to have more compromises than a propane powered fridge. Just sayin.


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r・pod 171 gone but not forgotten!


Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2020 at 9:55pm
In my case, my FPSC cooler cost me $100, so it was a no-brainer to purchase. That seemed to be a one-time opportunity as I have not seen any more available at the ReStore locations near me. The biggest advantage is that it will cool in hot temperatures. Once it is cool, the power use is minimal and I have been able to leave it running overnight and still have plenty of battery power available in the morning, totally unlike my one attempt at running the Dometic refrigerator on 12V when we first got the RPod. Now I can run the Dometic on 12V since my new setup provides more than enough power to both charge my LiFePO4 battery and run the refrigerator. However, if we are boondocking, once we stop, the Dometic goes back on LP power since I would need a lot more battery capacity to run that on 12V.

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StephenH
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,...

http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods
Former RPod 179
Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2020 at 6:51am
Originally posted by podwerkz

Correct me if I am wrong, but even the Danfoss and other '12V' compressors are not REALLY 12V DC...I am under the impression they have an internal control board (and inverter or switching/buck-boost circuit) feeding the brush-less compressor windings (and possibly a field coil) a 3 phase AC voltage...although I have no idea what that voltage would be. 

Yeah, there are 12V positive and negative wires or terminals, but the windings of the compressor are something else. Otherwise, with typical 12V DC motors, we would need brushes and commutators, and these compressors do not normally have those.

Although, I have not torn into one to verify that.

At any rate, I did the typical solar powered fridge experiment most of last year...I found that to have more compromises than a propane powered fridge. Just sayin.

IIRC (which I might not, it was 35 years ago) the Secop controllers provide low voltage square wave output to the hermetically sealed compressor motor. So they are a kind of inverter, just like brushes and commutator are a kind of inverter. That is what a brushless DC motor design does, it replaces the com and brushes with transistors do the polarity switching, based on a position sensor within the motor. You can't hermetically seal a brushed motor so this was the solution. The variable frequency 3 phase AC motor drive systems were originally developed for big industrial motors and have now made their way into EV's. But for a little bitty fridge compressor those are overkill, at least so far. 


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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2020 at 7:04am
Originally posted by StephenH

In my case, my FPSC cooler cost me $100, so it was a no-brainer to purchase. That seemed to be a one-time opportunity as I have not seen any more available at the ReStore locations near me. The biggest advantage is that it will cool in hot temperatures. Once it is cool, the power use is minimal and I have been able to leave it running overnight and still have plenty of battery power available in the morning, totally unlike my one attempt at running the Dometic refrigerator on 12V when we first got the RPod. Now I can run the Dometic on 12V since my new setup provides more than enough power to both charge my LiFePO4 battery and run the refrigerator. However, if we are boondocking, once we stop, the Dometic goes back on LP power since I would need a lot more battery capacity to run that on 12V.

You got a steal of a deal. Keep it nice, it might be a collector's item before too long. I don't think you can get a FPSC now, except for high end computer builders who spend big bucks to buy tiny ones to cool their overclocked CPUs to -40C or some such craziness. 

You can't compare the Dometic on 12V to the Danfoss, the Dometic absorption cycle COP is probably around 0.5 vs around 2 for the Danfoss (or FPSC). The absorption fridge is terribly inefficient but there is so much energy content in propane that it more than males up for it RV applications. 


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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2020 at 7:55am
I wasn't comparing 12V FPSC to propane Dometic, but 12V FPSC to Dometic on 12V. That is why I will continue to use the Dometic on propane when not connected to shore power or towing and use the FPSC to supplement for meats and other things that really do need to stay cold, even in hot weather.


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StephenH
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,...

http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods
Former RPod 179
Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS


Posted By: jato
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2020 at 2:17pm
Back to the OP.  Yesterday with the fridge 1/2 full with water and beverages the temp during the daytime stabilized at 43-44 degrees which is better but the outside temp was cooler as well, only getting up to 88 degrees.  This morning at 6 am temp was sitting at 42 which didn't please me as outside temp was 74. 

Decided to clean combustion chamber yet once again in light of all this fussing.  Turned to electric, causing the fridge temp to drop from 43 to 36 degrees in about 3 hours.  Let combustion chamber sit in mineral spirits for 2 hours and then blew out with compressed air and re-inserted.  At noon I turned off the electric (fridge was at 37) and turned propane back on.  Here it is 3.25 hours later and the temp has not changed, outside temperature is 80.  So things are looking up at this point.  Trying to figure out if there may still have been some crud either inside the combustion chamber or inside the orifice - doesn't seem likely as both had been cleaned out 2 times before doing it again this morning.


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God's pod
'11 model 177
'17 Ford F-150 4WD 3.5 Ecoboost
Jim and Diane by beautiful Torch Lake
"...and you will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free."


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2020 at 6:30pm
Once you have a lot of thermal mass in the fridge the coldest morning temp won't go as low. That't the downside of the warm temp in the afternoon not going as high.  Basically the thermal mass makes the fridge temp seek an average. Overall at this point I think your fridge is probably working about as well as its going to. Might want to add the fans as others have suggested to keep the outside air circulating, that's probably about  Hopefully you can get a few more years out of it.....

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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: jato
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2020 at 6:42am
Final report is in.  After camping in the UP of Michigan and temps were warm we decided to camp where we would have electricity for a change.  Temps stayed between 40 - 42 degrees regardless of outside temps which varied between 61 - 85.  Traveling down the road in propane mode was pretty much the same for the 7 plus hours of drive time (3.5 hours each way) 40 - 41 degrees.  Thank you all for your kind help and advice.

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God's pod
'11 model 177
'17 Ford F-150 4WD 3.5 Ecoboost
Jim and Diane by beautiful Torch Lake
"...and you will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free."


Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2020 at 9:15am
Great! I'm glad it worked out for you. Thumbs Up

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StephenH
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,...

http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods
Former RPod 179
Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS



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