Took our new 195 on its maiden voyage over Thanksgiving and immediately tripped something (GFCI?  Breaker?) on 30-Amp shore power using a space heater plugged in to one of the outlets next to the bed.  Ok, my bad, even though the same space heater worked fine in our previous TT, a 2015 T@G.  Had the TV on also, so that must have put it over the limit.

So...every outlet was dead, including the one the refrigerator used (which it turns out was on the GFCI circuit).  Here's the funny part...GFCI not tripped.  The 15 Amp breaker on that circuit not tripped (reset twice anyway just in case).  Pulled the outlet and it looked (and smelled) OK.  All other electric worked, including lights etc. that run off the battery and other 120V circuits (e.g., microwave worked fine).

Upon return took it to the dealer who after checking the usual suspects initially said they'd have to pull the bottom off and find the burned wire or wires.  Then called back an hour later and said that a 12-Amp breaker on the Inverter had tripped, and that was the culprit.

So my question is why would that circuit have anything to do with the inverter?  When not on shore power none of those outlets were live, so my (possibly faulty) assumption was that the circuit was supplied by only 120V power.  The fact that the fridge on that same circuit does not work off 12V battery power by design only strengthened that belief.  One nagging aspect of this is that there is an on/off switch for the inverter above the microwave...maybe when that's on there is power to the outlets supplied from the battery?  I never switched it on.

Thanks for reading through this...I still obviously have a few things to learn about RV power systems despite the reading that I've already done in an effort to fully understand these beasts.

Find a new dealer.

RPods do not have inverters. 

Under Options in link below (R-Pod 195 Full Specs):

https://www.rvusa.com/rv-guide/2019-forest-river-r-pod-travel-trailer-floorplan-rp-195-tr41953 - https://www.rvusa.com/rv-guide/2019-forest-river-r-pod-travel-trailer-floorplan-rp-195-tr41953

Ours has the solar panel...

The dealer did pull the inverter and take a pic of the 12A breaker.  They seem to be as confused as I am, maybe because this is such a new model and they haven't dealt with many.

I did find this in a Forest River forum.  It pertains to a MH, but may be relevant.  I'm in the process of emailing FR asking if the inverter does in fact power only some of the outlets.

In our MH not all outlets will work, only a few a hooked into the inverter. A simple way to check is turn on the inverter and take a night light and try all the outlets, bet you will find some will work, others will not. Make sure your not hooked up to shore power when you do this. In ours, some in bedroom, entertainment center will work, while ones in kitchen will not.

Since I never turned that inverter switch on while not on shore power I don't know if some outlets would be live.  I only tested them with the switch off...

Does anyone know the brand of inverter? Then of course a model number so it could be investigated further? 

No...I pasted the verbatim reply in my post.  I did ask them for clarification.

It is confusing, because the inverter would take 12V DC battery power and output 120V AC, so there is some reason to believe that the outlets could be powered by solar via the battery.  The solar panels of course produce 12V DC that is stored in the battery.  Still, why would the system use the 120V AC from the inverter when there is shore power available, especially when there's a 12-Amp limit on the inverter?

If the panel(s) are 12V, the load would be pretty large; something like 120 amps. That would be a solar array like you would use on a house, not an RV.

Okay, I think I mis-read earlier. I see the 12a fuse as part of the inverter now. Is this correct?

If so, makes sense, 1000w inverter would only produce 9amps at 110v's. 

Path of power: Solar panel > Controller > Battery > Inverter > outlet or appliance.

Take the panel or the controller  (or both) out of the equation, the battery still runs the inverter. Remove the Battery or inverter, no appliances run. 

With this only being a 1000w inverter, it wouldn't surprise me that only 'a' outlet is wired to it. 

Add shore power to mix. Most all inverters quality inverters will only produce (send power) if they do not read another source, much like an auto transfer switch. If FR says to shut it off while on shore power, do so. That questions the quality of the inverter though.. 

If the brand/model number comes up, we can answer the pertaining questions.

Inverter is WFCO WF-5110R (FR sent me the manual).  

http://wfcoelectronics.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/5110R-Manual_web.pdf - http://wfcoelectronics.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/5110R-Manual_web.pdf

Shore Power first passes through the Inverter.  Any outlets on the circuit connected to the inverter are limited to 12A due to the Inverter breaker, which will be the first to trip (as I experienced).

Some outlets will work off the inverter when not on shore power if the inverter is on, which it probably wasn't (althogh see note from FR tech support below).  Current draw would be limited to around 8 Amps (1000 watt/120V).  I say some outlets because the fridge outlet is on the GFCI circuit and is supposed to work only on propane/shore power.

WFCO Tech Support suggests always leaving the Inverter on.

Here is the latest from FR tech support:

That would imply that the inverter will not run purely off battery power (e.g., at night if boondocking).  Really???  We shall see.

Lastly, again from FR:

Further comments/questions/concerns welcome, as you guys are a smart bunch.  Thanks for the feedback so far.

Your inverter does have the switch I mentioned earlier according to the spec's you supplied. 

Exactly like this one (the 195 is in the shop):

I swear I spotted an on/off switch for the inverter like this one:

Can't verify until I get back inside the R-Pod.

From my reading of the manual plus the WFCO tech's comments it seems that when shore AC hits the inverter it senses the shore power and goes in to pass-through mode.  I'm not saying that shore power powers the inverter.  

From the manual:

So again, I got bitten by the 12A limit imposed by the inverter even though I was on 30A shore power and the inverter itself was not supplying any power.

Originally posted by Olddawgsrule ...Here is the latest from FR tech support: The solar panel powers the invertor I call BS on this one...

I'm skeptical of this comment as well.

<From my reading of the manual plus the WFCO tech's comments it seems that when shore AC hits the inverter it senses the shore power and goes in to pass-through mode.  I'm not saying that shore power powers the inverter. >

This is correct and what I mentioned as the transfer switch. The inverter is off line when shore-power is introduced. The 12amp limit is no longer in play since the inverter is not, when on shore-power.

<The solar panel powers the invertor I call BS on this one... 

I'm skeptical of this comment as well.>

Just think about this for a moment.. You have a 100watt panel (not sure what you have) and it's supposed to power a 1000w inverter? What part of the math works? Skeptical? It's BS.. 

Easy way to see if the inverter is causing an issue, is to dis-connect it. If all systems are good without it, then you found the issue. I'm under the impression it's not the inverter... 

  

After reading most of this, including the WFCO manual and having installed a solar system on my 179 it looks like there is a normal inverter and includes most operational needs.  From reviewing the manual you are limited to a 12 amp resettable circuit breaker on the inverter or 1440 watts of power.  You can't determine from the manual what is powered from the inverter, to do that you would have to be off shore power have the battery (ies) connected charged and the inverter operational then find out what appliances (refrigerator, water heater, fan for the furnace, TV, and micro wave I don't think any of these will be operational off the inverter) which would indicate that they are wired directly to shore power and not to the inverter.  At the same time check the outlets and find out which ones have power while not on shore power.  This will let you know what is operating what.  Keep in mind that the solar panel (s) will be charging the batteries and then the power will be going to the inverter to be used as 120v in the rpod.

Next...

I installed an inverter in our 179. For simplicity, all of the outlets that were connected to the inverter have brown face plates rather than white.  this makes it easy for us to remember which outlets to use with different load devices.

Maybe this will help once you can figure out which outlets are powered by the inverter.

Good luck

Vann

Originally posted by podwerkz So yeah, plug the space heater into a directly shore-powered outlet.  Next...

Update:

Finally got the 195 back from the shop.  With the unit off shore power I turned the inverter on (switch is indeed just above the microwave next to a light switch) and tested all five interior outlets.  All were live  (so we can watch TV for a while while boondocking...yay?).  So...@podwerkz I have no option to plug anything in to an outlet is not connected to the inverter (i.e., on the pass-through current).  This apparently means the this circuit is limited to a 12A draw rather than 15A as indicated on the breaker in the main box.  Oh well...will have to be careful.

Thanks again everyone...

Totally agree - the only thing that I use my solar panel for is to keep the battery charged for the 12v functions in the trailer. When I have shore power, I use electrical appliances (a few). The twain shall never meet. Makes no sense.

Excellent suggestion, but sounds like a task for a master RV electrician.  I'm a geologist.

When the outlets were nonfunctional we ran the space heater at 1/2 power (draw = 7 or so amps) off of an extension cord plugged in to a 20-amp circuit and run through the back-left window by the bed (opened it just enough and sealed off the rest of the opening from the outside). Kept the R-Pod nice and warm.

Maybe that will be our solution when on shore power...I would hate to trip that breaker again because it's a total pain to get to.  Alternatively, maybe a much smaller space heater would do the trick.  7-8 amps < 12 amps, but still...

When not on shore power the propane heater would be in play of course.  Also, the TV draws about 1 amp when 120v is available, so on battery it should draw 10 amps, correct (120v/12v = 10x the amp draw I believe)?  That means if the battery is rated at, say, 100 amp-hours then running the TV for two hours at night would draw the battery down about 20%.  That's in addition to any other 12v draws.

During the day the battery would be partially replenished by the solar.  Yesterday about 9 amp-hours were sent to the battery, and that's with our current very low sun angle, so there is hope...

Hope I've got this right...

I agree that reducing the shore power capacity by installing an undersized inverter/transfer switch seems like a poor design choice.

Besides the TV, what else do you want to be able to run from the inverter (without shore power)? I hate to say this, but if the answer is nothing else and you don't feel comfortable with rewiring some of your receptacles you might be better off to just bypass the inverter and its transfer switch entirely, which would be relatively easy from a wiring standpoint. You can then get a dual voltage TV inexpensively on Amazon or elsewhere which would also be more efficient when running on 12V.  

I agree that reducing the shore power capacity by installing an undersized inverter/transfer switch seems like a poor design choice.

Besides the TV, what else do you want to be able to run from the inverter (without shore power)? I hate to say this, but if the answer is nothing else and you don't feel comfortable with rewiring some of your receptacles you might be better off to just bypass the inverter and its transfer switch entirely, which would be relatively easy from a wiring standpoint. You can then get a dual voltage TV inexpensively on Amazon or elsewhere which would also be more efficient when running on 12V.  

Is there such a TV of quality? Most I find are 19v's... 

I do agree wholeheartedly that if the TV is you main concern, then setting up a simple bypass just for that is pretty easy. Even a Geologist can do it.. LOL. The question becomes can you afford the additional power drain to your power system?

We found that using either the laptop or even the tablet works rather nicely. I broadcast audio to my bluetooth speaker (which is nearby) and away we go into movieland. I find I can get better cell signal than broadcast signal when we boondock. So streaming a movie or live show we live is pretty simple. By this system, I can also stream music, news or weather as I wish. 

Best part for us is we can re-charge as we drive. If on a extended stay, I have a lithium travel battery I can use (mainly the night light and personal fan power).

To each our own as to how we accomplish what we require. 

The dual voltage TV I got on Amazon has worked fine for me so far. Pretty much all lcd tvs come from China and there really isn't a whole lot to distinguish them in my opinion.  I just buy the cheapest one in the size that I want and call it good. I use my phone with a hdmi adapter for streaming and run the sound through the bluetooth stereo in the trailer. Works fine, and a cell booster brings in sufficient data bandwidth most places I camp. Yep and you can stream music via the bt link too, from outside in the campsite as well as inside. 

Also, if you pull 10 amps for 2 hours, it would be more like 40% of your battery capacity, as lead-acid batteries should (generally) not be drawn down by more than 50%. You should figure your 100 amp-hour battery is good for about 50 amp-hours before it needs attention.

I used my Kill A Watt while on shore power and the Television registered about 1 amp.  I'll have to try it on the inverter only and see what it draws at 12v.  [Edit...it would still be 120v.  Now I'm confusing myself]

Good news is that I tested the space heater that started all this trouble on 1/2 power on one of the interior outlets while plugged into my home electric and it draws about 6.5 amps (and didn't trip the inverter breaker, not that it should have).  Looks like I won't have to run an extension cord through the window lol.

I'm aware that the battery needs to be maintained above 50%.  I need to investigate whether the solar controller indicates (probably roughly) the remaining capacity.  It indicates current AH input to the battery, total AH input over that last X hours (or maybe during its "charging day"...will have to check on that), and battery voltage.  Manual says a fully charged battery should read > 13.6 volts.  When I retrieved the R-Pod from the dealer (and it saw the sun again) it went in to "Bulk charging" mode, with the light on the controller indicating that the battery was between 11.5 and 12.5 volts.  Not sure how that equates to remaining amp-hours.  Maybe someone can help on this.

As for 12V TVs, there are lots of choices. You can go https://campaddict.com/12-volt-tv/ - here for a general discussion of the various choices and options, or you can go https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004YWQHUW/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B004YWQHUW&linkCode=as2&tag=campaddictbutton-20&linkId=12a6073c5465781c0117741ba8eafa5c&th=1 - here and just order one (don't get the 32" version; it looks like that's 120VAC only).

Problem is I don't have any 12v outlets as it turns out.

Maybe I'll get one of these:

https://www.diehard.com/products/diehard-platinum-portable-power-1150 - https://www.diehard.com/products/diehard-platinum-portable-power-1150

It really isn't hard to install a 12V outlet. If your antenna booster or stereo is near the TV, then you can tap into the 12V there. You will need to see if there is sufficient open space behind the panel to mount a 12V outlet. Something like this will work: http://%20smile.amazon.com/dp/B07S91C3H6/ -  https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B015CKXU7W/ .

Or, you could install one like this one and get multiple functions from one connection:

https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B01DVTQ46A/ - https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B01DVTQ46A/

Either one connects easily and since there are only two wires (positive and negative) and neither is of such a voltage that could hurt or kill you, it is safe to do.

Hello all,

 With the nice weather we've had I'm starting to think spring and changes I want to make to our POD. Solar is all greek to me so reading everything on controllers, lithium batteries, two 6v vs one 12v lithium Im confused. Our situation is we have an older POD. I currently need a new battery and would like to upgrade the battery and add solar for extended stays so I have a few questions:

1. Using the original converter in the camper is there a problem upgrading to a life04 lithium battery. any problems charging with old technology converter?

2. Does one 12volt lithium  equal two 6volt batteries in series?

3. How large of lithium battery would be sufficient? 20Ah, 50Ah or 100Ah?

4. I'm interested in the portability and packing/storing of a suitcase solar array. Is 100watt solar panel large enough to maintain charge boon docking?

5. I camp in the forests of Pennsylvania, maryland and NewYork. Is solar a worthwhile investment or does  the shaded campsites make solar impractical? Is anyone from the same area using solar and what is your experience?

Thanks in advance for responding.

2) Depends on the size of each. You can go by amp-hours or watt-hours to compare.

3) a 100AH lithium is "roughly" equal to 200 AH lead-acid. This is a rule of thumb, not exact, but is close enough for guvmint work.

4) For many people a 100 watt solar panel is more than enough. If you use more than average electricity, you may want larger. It's probably a good place to start to see how it works for you.

5) Solar generally won't work in the shade. That is an over-simplification, but you would typically want to place your solar panels in direct sun if at all possible.

You could use the converter. The down side is that the charging profile is wrong. You will not fully charge the LiFePO4 battery. If yours is the WFCO 8955 unit, you can swap out the converter section with the WF-8950L2-MBA which is made for LiFePO4 batteries. That is what I did.

2. Does one 12volt lithium  equal two 6volt batteries in series?

It depends. The two 6V batteries I had were 215AH. If I limited the draw to no less than 50%, that was 107.5AH. I replaced the two 6V batteries with one 100AH battery. Since the LiFePO4 battery can be drawn down much further, it should give me almost as much usable power. This also is at a fraction of the weight.

3. How large of lithium battery would be sufficient? 20Ah, 50Ah or 100Ah?

Again, it depends on what your power needs are. 20AH would be quite inadequate. 50AH would be like replacing one 12V battery. 100AH would be roughly equivalent to the two 6V batteries in usable capacity. I consider 100AH a baseline amount.

4. I'm interested in the portability and packing/storing of a suitcase solar array. Is 100watt solar panel large enough to maintain charge boon docking?

I just ordered this one: https://www.ebay.com/itm/302845284945 - - Renogy Eclipse 100W 12V Folding Solar Panel . It should be adequate. I will be able to say more about it after I get it and have a chance to use it.

5. I camp in the forests of Pennsylvania, maryland and NewYork. Is solar a worthwhile investment or does  the shaded campsites make solar impractical?

Shade does not help. Having a portable one that can be moved to take advantage of sun is helpful, but if you are in deep shade, it won't help. Full sunlight is needed to be able to use the full capacity of any solar panel. Some will do better in partial sunlight or cloudy bright days, but full sun is best. That is why I got a portable unit that I can move. As I said, I will be able to speak more about it after the one I just ordered arrives and I gain experience with it.

If you want to see my LiFePO4 installation, I wrote it up in my mods (see link in signature).

Not really. That is marketing hype.  If the photons aren't there you don't get the electrons, just basic quantum physics.  Don't pay more for a solar module because it has "better low light performance".  Put the solar module in full sun, even partial shade on a single cell will kill the output current because the cells are all in series.

I'm not sure about that. Cloudy bright still has a good number of photons, just not as many as full sunlight. I have read enough reviews of solar panels from people who have stated that they do perform in non-direct sunlight situations, just not as well. It isn't a total binary situation where it either has full sunlight and works or it does not have full sunlight and does not work. If one can place the panel(s) in full sunlight, that is best. Sometimes, one has no choice as full, direct sunlight is not available. In that case, one takes what one can get. I agree though that one should not be swayed by marketing hype.

Also, watch out for some of the lower-priced panels. In the specifications, they state that they are made for a positive ground (or common positive) situation. The RPods are wired for negative ground (common negative). The Renogy one I just ordered is negative ground so it will work without issue.

Sorry to give the impression that you have to have full sun to get output from a PV module. Being a professional in this technology I tend to gloss over things sometimes.  The topic I was adressing was differences between the various solar module manufacturer's low light performance, which is negligible. 

The output current of solar modules is essentially linear with solar irradiance.  If you have a very cloudy day you might get about 10% of one sun. A day with high cirrus cloud cover might be 50-80%. So under very cloudy conditions a solar module will produce about 10% of the current that it produces under full sun conditions. That is because one photon of sunlight produces one electron-hole pair in the silicon which the solar cell is fabricated from. Nothing you can do about that, you can't collect energy that isn't there. 

One trick you can do on a very cloudy day is lay the module horizontally rather than point it towards the sun. if you can't tell where the sun is the module can't either so its better to lay it flat so it can collect sunlight scattered around the whole sky by the clouds.  

Re the positive vs. negative ground issue, I think you are perhaps referring to the surface polarization problem Sunpower's early products had in high voltage negtive grounded grid tie applications. The module frames must be grounded on these large high voltage systems for safety and when you do that it imposes an electric field between the glass surface and the top surface of the solar cells. In Sunpower's case they depended on what is effectively a static charge on the front cell surface to achieve their really high cell efficiencies and the electric field from negative grounding bled that off. Sunpower is far from being a cheap product though. Other manufacturer's might have had this issue too but I haven't heard about it. 

The surface passivation issue wouldn't effect our little 12V systems because the voltage is so low and we're not grounding the frames on these portable modules anyway. Besides, Sunpower doen't make their products the same way now as they did in the 00's so its no longer a problem for them even in high voltage negatively grounded systems. That doesn't stop other companies' marketing ppl from making stuff up of course... (disclaimer, I've never worked for Sunpower or owned their stock )

Thank you for the clarification. The trick of horizontal on cloudy days is good to know. Also, that is a good explanation of why some are positive ground. I still don't know how one of these positive grounded setups (which are much less expensive in the price comparisons I was doing on Amazon) would work with the RPod. Would it even matter as long as the correct polarity is observed when connecting the charge controller's wiring to the battery (whether direct or through the solar port)?

I just got to thinking though. This has drifted from the original topic. It is, however, very good information for anyone wishing to do a solar setup. It would be nice if the solar related posts could be moved to their own topic and pinned.

The current output of solar cells/modules that is linear with solar irradiance (photons to electrons) is the short circuit current (Isc) or current at zero voltage. If the fill factor (how close to square the current-voltage curve of the module is) is poor then the current at max power (Imp) around 17V for our 12V modules can drop off significantly from Isc. Good modules will have a nice flat upper horizontal part of the IV curve with very little drop off.

So if your SunWize modules had issues (like mismatched or broken cells or interconnects) then you could have a significant drop off in Imp at partial sun levels. Having multiple mismatched modules in series can make this worse too. The SunWize array was also probably not performing very well at full sun, it was just not as noticeable.  But for new modules at 12V in our little systems it's not something we need to really worry about. 

The purpose of a lot of marketing is to instill fear of making a mistake into consumers. This is especially true for relatively mature commodity type products, like say flashlight batteries or solar modules. There is really little difference between them so the companies' marketing folks try to come up with stuff to make you afraid to buy the other guy's product. Since they all do that the consumer often winds up confused and afraid of buying anything which hurts everyone's sales. 

Going back to the original issue of the thread (and resurrecting it), we just upgraded from a 2011 RP177 to a 2021 RP195 and it came with solar installed and the 1000W inverter. 

Anybody have any thoughts on if we should be fronting shore power with a Surge suppressor and if so, which one?  Reading the inverter manual, I think it will take care of brown outs (and therefore no need for EMS), but I'm wondering if we need to protect the Inverter from spikes.

Great analysis.  Thanks.

Of course its not going to augment the grid power from the battery in a brown out situation, not sure what I was thinking there. (Its not a UPS)  I haven't found anything in the manual on how low the grid power needs to go before the ATS flips it over to battery.

Under Inverter Operation - "The WF-5110RS Inverter is equipped with an internal transfer switch to automatically route either the incoming AC power or inverter produced AC voltage through to the output."

And  "When incoming AC power is not available, and the Power Push button is in the ON position, the inverter will produce AC voltage at the output."

These seem to be the other relevant specs:

• Pure Sine Wave Output (THD less than 3%)
• 1000 Watt Continuous Output Power
• 2000 Watt Surge Capability to Handle Compressor/Motor Startup
• 16 Amp Re-settable Circuit Breaker on AC Output
• Greater than 86% Efficiency at Full Load
• Automatically Re-settable Reverse Polarity Protection
• Direct AC Pass-Through When Shore or Generator Power Present
• Internal Transfer Switch Can Switch Up to a 20 Amp AC Load
• Less than 50 Millisecond Transfer Time on WF-5110RS Startup/Shutdown
• Protected Against Overload, Short Circuit, Reverse Battery Polarity, Over/Under Input Voltage, and Over Temperature

Originally posted by gpokluda I would suggest the Autoformer Power Watchdog. We picked it based on positive reviews and because it also has Emergency Power Off (EPO).

Thanks, I'll have a look at that one.

Well, we just returned from a 10-day trip and for the first time our Hughes Autoformer saved our bacon.  We stayed at a KOA that had a low-voltage problem due to someone knocking over a power pedestal and effectively shutting down half the electric grid.  When I plugged in the autoformer the "Boosting" light came on for the first time ever.  Guy across from us (a relative newbie) came over and asked us why his Watchdog was indicating 106 volts, and I told him there was obviously an issue (didn't know at the time what had happened).

He talked to management, got his money back, unplugged from power, and moved on the next morning.

Bottom line:  The autoformer (which has surge protection and also warns of open neutrals and grounding issues) is a great first line of defense.  I understand that some folks also attach a power watchdog after the autoformer.

Thanks offgrid,

I'm totally with you now.  If the grid power goes low, the EMS will kill the power to the pod, but life in the pod goes on (other than AC & Microwave) thanks to the Inverter's ATS.

And I've got all winter to look for an EMS   ... dang, winters coming...

If you have the same inverter I do, then if the EMS kills shore power you would have to switch the inverter on...I don't believe it's automatic.  The battery won't last too terribly long if you're powering more than the lights and low-amp 120-volt items.  Using the hair dryer and coffee maker will be an issue.

If you're worried about low-voltage scenarios I would look at the autoformer option, which as I mentioned above just came in very handy when we encountered a low-voltage situation for the first time.