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Battery Disconnect Switch

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Forum Name: Podmods, Maintenance, Tips and Tricks
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URL: http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=12854
Printed Date: 16 May 2024 at 12:48am
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Topic: Battery Disconnect Switch
Posted By: mikeyg2347
Subject: Battery Disconnect Switch
Date Posted: 18 May 2019 at 5:27pm
I just received a battery disconnect switch from Etrailer.com, but unfortunately it didn't come with a wiring diagram. Being a total electrical idiot I need pretty explicit instructions to undertake this installation. It's the kind with a key and two posts. Anybody care to point me in the right direction? Thanks.




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Mike



Replies:
Posted By: marwayne
Date Posted: 18 May 2019 at 5:43pm
If you want to use the positive  black wire, black wire to post in, other post black wire out. All it does is interrupt the current. If you want to use the neutral white wire it's the same procedure. Some people use the positive others use the neutral.

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If you want something done right, do it yourself.
2011 RP172, 2016 Tundra 5.7 Litre, Ltd.




Posted By: podwerkz
Date Posted: 18 May 2019 at 6:30pm
My new r-pod has a black and a red wire from the trailer to the battery.

It's usually best to interrupt the positive cable, (red if you have red and black, or black if you have white and black).

The switch can be installed in the battery box if there is enough room, or inside the trailer near the converter where the positive cable enters the trailer.

Installing the switch at the battery box up front means the battery will be offline for maintenance charging if hooked up to shore power and the switch is off. Or, if hooked up to shore power, turn the switch ON.

But if you plan to leave the trailer NOT hooked up to shore power when stored, this is a good option, as it removes all drain from the trailer electronics during storage.






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r・pod 171 gone but not forgotten!


Posted By: mikeyg2347
Date Posted: 18 May 2019 at 6:56pm
Thanks for your answers.  But like I said, I am an electrical idiot, so I'm still in the dark. I need an explicit picture, verbal or visual, preferably in crayon.

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Mike


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 18 May 2019 at 7:22pm
The red vs. black wire thing can be confusing, just find the positive (plus) battery terminal and connect it between that wire and the battery post.  

As podwerks says, you should put the disconnect in the positive line. The negative is a grounded neutral so shouldn't have any breaks made in it. 


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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 18 May 2019 at 8:35pm
Personally, I disagree with having it on the positive side. Please read this, then tell me I am wrong for putting the switch on the negative side (and disconnecting negative first, connecting negative last)

https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/how-to/a1454/4213127/ - https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/how-to/a1454/4213127/


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StephenH
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,...

http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods
Former RPod 179
Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS


Posted By: Jeepinator
Date Posted: 18 May 2019 at 9:20pm
I’m also installing a battery switch as well as a Victron battery monitor. Thoughts on installing them at the converter vs outside in the elements?

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2018 Jeep Wrangler Willys
2017 179


Posted By: podwerkz
Date Posted: 19 May 2019 at 1:20am
Originally posted by StephenH

Personally, I disagree with having it on the positive side. Please read this, then tell me I am wrong for putting the switch on the negative side (and disconnecting negative first, connecting negative last)

https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/how-to/a1454/4213127/ - https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/how-to/a1454/4213127/

You're free to disagree and wire yours the way you feel it should be done...you are not 'wrong'...but I am also free to recommend 'best practice'.  

We're not disconnecting a positive cable (instead of a negative) for a few minutes for routine battery replacement with one or two cables, and leaving them loose, to possibly short a loose positive cable to a grounded frame member accidentally.

This is about installing a battery switch, which is different. Once it is installed, flipping the switch (killing the positive side) produces no 'hot' loose ends, with metallic frame or jewelry or wrenches nearby to short to anything.

They are two different solutions for two different scenarios.

Similar to vehicle starter relays, heavy duty contactors on electric forklifts, the power switch on your car radio or the light switches in your house, which always close or open the positive (or hot side), it's usually best to switch the positive (or hot) side in most cases.

There are always exceptions, of course. Sometimes the ground is the side that we switch...if it makes sense such as the one-wire, grounding plunger-type switches in the typical old-school dome light car door switches. 

The problem with switching only the negative side in a battery disconnect switch installation (in a trailer) is that now, even with the switch turned off, the entire hot side cable still has 12v battery potential on it, all the way to the converter and other electronics inside the trailer.  If there is a short-to-ground failure in any of those components that have a ground connection, (and most do) then now we have a completed (but probably inadequate) ground, which might 'liven' things up more than we would like. 


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r・pod 171 gone but not forgotten!


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 19 May 2019 at 4:28am
+1 to podwerks.  

The differentiation is between permanently installed disconnects and maintenance activities. The national electric code only allows grounded (neutral) conductors to be disconnected for maintenance or under special circumstances that we don't need to go into here. 

We should all follow the Code when wiring our trailers. If you look at your home wiring you'll see that the white (neutral) conductor is never disconnected or fused. The colored conductors are always protected by breakers or fuses and are the ones that are switched. By following that practice you can be assured that if you have a fault somewhere you won't end up with more current flowing through an unprotected conductor than its rated for. 


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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 19 May 2019 at 4:54am
Originally posted by Jeepinator

I’m also installing a battery switch as well as a Victron battery monitor. Thoughts on installing them at the converter vs outside in the elements?

I think you probably answered your own question. Tongue 

Obviously you'll want the Victron display inside. The shunt has a pc board attached so that should be protected from moisture and temperature extremes as well. So, I'd suggest placing the shunt  in the negative battery connection near the charger and the disconnect either at the same location but in the positive battery connection or outside on the battery positive terminal. 


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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: mikeyg2347
Date Posted: 19 May 2019 at 7:38am
Naturally my colors are red and white. I mean, why be consistent? Diversity is a good thing, right? I've got it figured out now, though. "Interrupt the circuit" was what got me over the hump, though I had to process it for an extended period. Got a good discussion going anyway. Switching the positive side makes total sense, especially considering the fireworks displays I created yesterday trying to figure this thing out.

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Mike


Posted By: Jeepinator
Date Posted: 19 May 2019 at 7:42am
Offgrid, I was hoping your solution would work. Without an electrical diagram though I was unsure how to verify that there were no other connections (drains) between the battery and the converter. 

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2018 Jeep Wrangler Willys
2017 179


Posted By: EchoGale
Date Posted: 19 May 2019 at 8:04am
University of Youtube is always a good option. You'll find a wiring diagram and an install video there.  Probably for the exact model you bought.

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Julie


Posted By: mikeyg2347
Date Posted: 19 May 2019 at 8:10am
YouTube U was a total letdown. Normally I can find what I need there but everything on this topic was either switches not even remotely similar to mine or so half-assed you couldn't follow. In one video the guy had his hands in the way the entire time so you never saw what cables were being connected to what posts. No diagrams that I could find.

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Mike


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 19 May 2019 at 8:14am
Originally posted by Jeepinator

Offgrid, I was hoping your solution would work. Without an electrical diagram though I was unsure how to verify that there were no other connections (drains) between the battery and the converter. 

I get your concern. Since it looks from their literature that Victron wants their shunt in the negative leg you'll need to be sure that there isn't more than one chassis ground return to the battery. Otherwise the shunt will only pick up part of the current. 

I've never looked at that so I can't say for certain. Maybe someone else has?

One way to check would be to temporarily lift the negative connection from the converter which I think goes to the frame under that area and see if any items are still energized. If you have one you can also try a dc clamp on multimeter to see if there's still any current flow while that connection is lifted.


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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: podwerkz
Date Posted: 19 May 2019 at 12:19pm
Originally posted by mikeyg2347

..... especially considering the fireworks displays I created yesterday trying to figure this thing out.

If this installation is beyond your knowledge and comfort level, I would suggest you take the trailer to a local RV shop or small mom-n-pop auto shop. Or if you have a relative or friend who is handy with tools and electrical repairs, they might do it for you for a pizza and a 6-pack of beer.

I can easily do this stuff, but some things, like welding, and roofing, I pay for.

The consequences of an error might cost a LOT more than the installation fee you end up paying.


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r・pod 171 gone but not forgotten!


Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 19 May 2019 at 1:49pm
Originally posted by offgrid

+1 to podwerks.  

The differentiation is between permanently installed disconnects and maintenance activities. The national electric code only allows grounded (neutral) conductors to be disconnected for maintenance or under special circumstances that we don't need to go into here. 

We should all follow the Code when wiring our trailers. If you look at your home wiring you'll see that the white (neutral) conductor is never disconnected or fused. The colored conductors are always protected by breakers or fuses and are the ones that are switched. By following that practice you can be assured that if you have a fault somewhere you won't end up with more current flowing through an unprotected conductor than its rated for. 
Does that NEC apply to AC circuits or DC circuits. I agree that positive disconnect makes sense for AC circuits. I disagree that it applies equally to DC circuits at the battery . Without the negative terminal connected, where is the complete circuit?
I have a wrench in my tool box that has a divot taken out of it from before I learned to take the negative terminal off first. It did not take long to learn that lesson. The wrench was instantly hot.


-------------
StephenH
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,...

http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods
Former RPod 179
Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 19 May 2019 at 2:31pm
Originally posted by StephenH

]Does that NEC apply to AC circuits or DC circuits.  I agree that positive disconnect makes sense for AC circuits. I disagree that it applies equally to DC circuits at the battery . Without the negative terminal connected, where is the complete circuit? 
I have a wrench in my tool box that has a divot taken out of it from before I learned to take the negative terminal off first. It did not take long to learn that lesson. The wrench was instantly hot.

Yes the NEC applies to both AC and DC circuits. There is no difference with respect to grounding practice and overcurrent protection (other than you don't call the hot conductor the positive in ac circuits, because the voltage alternates positive and negative).  I've designed hundreds of dc power systems and all were required to meet the NEC. 

No one is saying for you not to lift your negative first when doing battery maintenance.  Then, proceed to lift the positive as well.  No one wants to be melting wrenches. I always use one with an insulated handle when I mess with batteries because you can easily end up shorting across the battery terminals as well as to ground. 

But the switch is permanently installed. it's going to be left open indefinitely and unattended.  Podwerks did a great job I think explaining why that should be in the positive (ungrounded) leg. There is no complete circuit until there is a fault or inadvertent connection in the system somewhere. That's what much of the electric code is for, protecting your electrical system in the event of fault conditions, not from normal conditions.  To accomplish that the code provides for a set of neutral conductors  which are not switched and are always referenced to ground and another set of hot conductors that have the necessary fuses, circuit breakers and switches in them.  


-------------
1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: mikeyg2347
Date Posted: 19 May 2019 at 7:22pm

"If this installation is beyond your knowledge and comfort level, I would suggest you take the trailer to a local RV shop or small mom-n-pop auto shop. Or if you have a relative or friend who is handy with tools and electrical repairs, they might do it for you for a pizza and a 6-pack of beer."

Excellent advice, Podwerkz. I was able to get it done relatively quickly once the concept of interrupting the circuit sank into my brain. Works like a charm. AND i put the switch on the positive side. Thanks for all the input. Much appreciated.






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Mike


Posted By: Richand Cindy
Date Posted: 20 May 2019 at 8:41am
Cannot say enough how usefull a cutoff switch is.  This is our second year opening up the RV after winter storage.  Batteries left on the RV in the cold NJ winter and no trickle charging at all.  Just turned the switch back on and we are at full charge.


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OLD 2017.5 RPOD 180 + 2015 Jeep Cherokee Trailhawk
NEW: 2018 Passport Elite 23RB + 2017 Ram 1500 Diesel


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 20 May 2019 at 9:21am
Originally posted by Richand Cindy

Cannot say enough how usefull a cutoff switch is.  This is our second year opening up the RV after winter storage.  Batteries left on the RV in the cold NJ winter and no trickle charging at all.  Just turned the switch back on and we are at full charge.

It depends where you live. What you are saying is valid for cold winter climates but not warm ones. Cold is good for batteries because the self discharge rate is greatly reduced. They won't freeze if you fully charge them first.  

But, if you do that in a place with warm winters the batteries will discharge and the electrolyte will most likely stratify, resulting in plate sulfation and either reduced capacity or dead batteries.

So, if you live in a place with warm winters, leave the batteries and the charger connected and turned on if you can. You can't go wrong doing that unless you forget to keep water in them. Since I live in a relatively warm climate I don't have a disconnect switch and wouldn't use it if I did. 

If you can't keep them charged via the charger where you store the rpod then remove them and trickle charge them at home, or get a small solar module and maintain their charge with that. 


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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 20 May 2019 at 9:24am
Originally posted by offgrid

Originally posted by StephenH

]Does that NEC apply to AC circuits or DC circuits.  I agree that positive disconnect makes sense for AC circuits. I disagree that it applies equally to DC circuits at the battery . Without the negative terminal connected, where is the complete circuit? 
I have a wrench in my tool box that has a divot taken out of it from before I learned to take the negative terminal off first. It did not take long to learn that lesson. The wrench was instantly hot.

Yes the NEC applies to both AC and DC circuits. There is no difference with respect to grounding practice and overcurrent protection (other than you don't call the hot conductor the positive in ac circuits, because the voltage alternates positive and negative).  I've designed hundreds of dc power systems and all were required to meet the NEC. 

No one is saying for you not to lift your negative first when doing battery maintenance.  Then, proceed to lift the positive as well.  No one wants to be melting wrenches. I always use one with an insulated handle when I mess with batteries because you can easily end up shorting across the battery terminals as well as to ground. 

But the switch is permanently installed. it's going to be left open indefinitely and unattended.  Podwerks did a great job I think explaining why that should be in the positive (ungrounded) leg. There is no complete circuit until there is a fault or inadvertent connection in the system somewhere. That's what much of the electric code is for, protecting your electrical system in the event of fault conditions, not from normal conditions.  To accomplish that the code provides for a set of neutral conductors  which are not switched and are always referenced to ground and another set of hot conductors that have the necessary fuses, circuit breakers and switches in them.  
Okay, hot vs. neutral for AC circuits. I still don't understand how there could be a fault condition if there is no path to the negative terminal of the battery with the switch on the negative side in the off position. However, I can understand the point of having all switches/breakers on the positive/hot side for consistency.


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StephenH
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,...

http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods
Former RPod 179
Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS


Posted By: podwerkz
Date Posted: 20 May 2019 at 10:04am
Just FYI, my battery disconnect switch is for disconnecting the battery from the trailer electrics, but the small 50w solar panel and controller always remain connected to the battery. SO in my situation, the ground continuity needs to be maintained all the time. (some solar controllers can be damaged if battery power is removed (or cut) while there is a solar panel feeding voltage to the controller)

In my case, the switch breaks the positive connection from the battery to the trailer, inside the trailer. But the positive wire up to that point IS energized, even with the switch off. This way the solar controller can continuously feed both positive and negative. This falls under 'best practice'. Just like using red for positive and black for negative. The electrons sure as heck don't care what color the wire is, but WE need to try to be consistent, using 'best practice'.

Out on the trailer tongue, IF the battery switch is physically mounted there, such as in a metal battery box, it is less critical which wire is interrupted for switching: IF there is no (and will never be a) roof mounted solar panel, or solar controller inside, and you can GUARANTEE that NO ONE will ever hook up a standard automotive battery charger to the trailer trying to manually charge the batteries, this person having no idea about the switch, and clamps the red clamp to the positive battery terminal, and the negative clamp to the trailer frame. If they don't see or know about the negative acting switch, they will get no results...no charging when they hook things up.

In other words, future proofing. 

Best practice, among other things, stays consistent: what you do today, and what you want to add tomorrow, or next year, and what a random RV technician will know about, and poor Cousin Charlie, who buys your trailer after you die, and has to figure out what the heck is going on...and what was added, and why was it done that way. 

Ok, once they get it figured out, fine. 

If you chose to completely re-wire an RV using pink wire for ground wiring and green for all the positives, it will work. But no one else who works on the wiring in the future will know what is going on, because how could they?

But 'best practice' can usually be figured out much quicker, because most of the time, it's also common sense...it is done the same as all other common wiring is done. Common practice and best practice are often the same thing. 

Disclaimer: Not ALWAYS 'just' common sense, because often there is solid engineering behind it.





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r・pod 171 gone but not forgotten!


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 20 May 2019 at 10:08am
You can use the terms hot and neutral for DC too. Pretty much all telecom gear dating back to Alexander Bell was 48V positive ground, so in those systems the positive is the neutral conductor and the negative is hot.

You might inadvertently energize the circuits from the tow vehicle or the charger for example. That could create a surprise when you reconnected the battery, or a fault in one of the neutrals could create a fire hazard since they don't have any over current  protection. In the rare instances when there is a real need to float (no ground connection) an electrical system (typically for some kind of specialized industrial equipment) both conductors are treated as hots and the code requires both conductors to have fuses or circuit breakers for that reason. 

Yes, consistency is important. Its much easier to stay safe and to troubleshoot problems efficiently if you go into it knowing what to expect. If your system is installed per code  and you see a white wire, it will be a neutral and will always be connected and grounded. A colored wire will be either hot or off depending on the switch positions or whether the fuses are in on not. 

Turning the conversation around, I don't see any benefit in not following the code by putting the switch in the negative leg. its not like opening the switch is going to risk shorting a tool to the frame, right? 


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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: mikeyg2347
Date Posted: 20 May 2019 at 10:21am
[QUOTE=podwerkz]Just FYI, my battery disconnect switch is for disconnecting the battery from the trailer electrics, but the small 50w solar panel and controller always remain connected to the battery. 




Yep, Did that, too. I also ordered a 8W solar trickle charger to keep the batteries topped off between trips. Might be for peace of mind more than anything, but it was inexpensive.

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Mike


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 20 May 2019 at 10:31am
Originally posted by mikeyg2347

[QUOTE=podwerkz]Just FYI, my battery disconnect switch is for disconnecting the battery from the trailer electrics, but the small 50w solar panel and controller always remain connected to the battery. 

Yep, Did that, too. I also ordered a 8W solar trickle charger to keep the batteries topped off between trips. Might be for peace of mind more than anything, but it was inexpensive.

That's a great way to do it. 





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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 20 May 2019 at 1:55pm
Mine stays plugged in to shore power when we are home. The only time the switch gets used is if we have to take it somewhere and leave it where I know it will not be connected. If it were not plugged in, the solar charger would be a great idea provided I could position the panel to get sufficient sunlight. The front of our R-Pod faces NE.

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StephenH
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,...

http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods
Former RPod 179
Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS


Posted By: burnerjohnmichael
Date Posted: 23 May 2019 at 8:40pm
https://youtu.be/UWZJtv2uoR8


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 24 May 2019 at 6:27am
That is a good "how NOT to do it" video. 

The disconnect is in the negative leg: WRONG.

There is no indication i could see that he has any fuses or circuit breakers to protect the cnductors to either his trailer or his solar array: WRONG.

Just because somebody puts a video up on youtube doesn't mean they know what they're doing. 





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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 24 May 2019 at 8:55am
It was kind of like watching HDTV when they are showing marginally competent people engaging in grossly unsafe work practices, especially during the tear out phase.   The other day, I stumbled into a video of a guy cutting on his big toe to drain it with a rusty razor blade.  As offgrid says, not all you see on YouTube is done by people who know what they're doing.  i would add cable TV to that.

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Never leave footprints behind.
Fred & Maria Kearney
Sonoma 167RB
Our Pod 172
2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost



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