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Tongue weights at which sway has occurred?

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Topic: Tongue weights at which sway has occurred?
Posted By: offgrid
Subject: Tongue weights at which sway has occurred?
Date Posted: 04 Nov 2018 at 9:00am
For any of you that have experienced it and are willing to share, I'm looking for actual data from anyone who has observed trailer sway (or incipient sway) in an rPod. 

My specific concern is that I'd like to relocate weight aft in my 179 to reduce tongue weight when I'm heading out (with a full fresh water tank which is forward in the 179). But coming back, that fresh water has now gotten dirty and moved rearward, so I don't want to end up causing trailer sway inbound in exchange for heavy tongue weight outbound. 

So, particularly for you folks with trailers with aft fresh water tanks, and who have observed sway, what were the trailer and tongue weights, or % tongue weight (if you know), when that happened?

Thanks in advance!




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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold



Replies:
Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 04 Nov 2018 at 9:32am
Our fresh water tank in our 172 is just aft of the axle and the gray water tank, just forward.  Though I rarely travel with the fresh water tank filled, the times I have I've never noticed any propensity for trailer sway.  And when the water inevitably moves forward to the gray water tank, I've not noticed any perceptible change in handling.  And that is true despite the fact that we usually start out with an additional 10 gallons of drinking water stored under the starboard dinette seat, just aft of the galley, that also gradually migrates away.  [The black water tank rarely gets much in it since we use the campground heads when we can.]

All that being said, we have a lighter than average trailer and don't bring a lot of heavy stuff along.  Extra propane is kept in the truck bed, along with any other heavy stuff, so i've never really worried much about the the load.  I practice the Zen of trailer loading, trying to keep things in a kinda-sorta balance though reflection, meditation, and insight.  When everything is finally hooked up, I look at the relative position and angles, and it it's aesthetically pleasing and gives me inspiration to start the motor, off I go.  If something doesn't look right or feels odd when I start out driving, I'll go back and take a second look at where I put things.  With the exception of the propane kept at the tailgate, I try to put heavy stuff toward the front of the truck bed.

This is a totally unscientific method of trailer loading.  Some day I'll figure out where a public scale is and when I'm loaded as heavy as we ever get, I'll go there and make the ultimate test of Zen vs. objective measurement.


-------------
Never leave footprints behind.
Fred & Maria Kearney
Sonoma 167RB
Our Pod 172
2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost


Posted By: mcarter
Date Posted: 04 Nov 2018 at 9:43am
Offgrid,

My sway issue with a 178. The TT was brand new, so it was empty, except being in error I never checked the FW tank. Unbeknownst to me the dealer had not emptied it. I had a 150 mile or so trip home. TV was more than capable to haul safely and I did not have a sway bar. I experienced sway, especially is or near tractor trailers. Some anxious moments, probably heightened by fact it was first time I had towed the trailer. I quickly corrected my oversights, with sway bar and better knowledge of tongue weight and balance. I don't travel with a full water tank, but do have water to use for stops. Since first tow, never another problem.

-------------
Mike Carter
2015 178
" I had the right to remain silent, I just didn't have the ability."


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 04 Nov 2018 at 10:17am
Thanks lostagain. 

If your fresh tank in the 172 is just aft of the axle and the gray is just forward, shifting a full 30 gallons from one to the other probably changes the tongue weight by only about maybe 50 lbs. So I'm guessing that  if you're running light and you have a propane tank and a battery there you're still over the 11% on the tongue that FR lists for the empty 172.  Unfortunately for me, in the 179 the fresh tank is farther forward so the shift winds up being more like a 130 lb change on the tongue. Makes for about a 3.5% change in tongue weight.

Being a physics guy I just googled up "physics of trailer sway" and lo and behold, the very first hit that popped up that wasn't a manufacturer's ad was this:

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/what-causes-a-trailer-to-fishtail-on-the-highway.835369/

which turns out to be an incident of severe sway involving, you guessed it, and RPod. Looks like that one had an extremely low tongue weight of 7%.  So there's one more data point if you can believe the 7% figure. 





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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 04 Nov 2018 at 10:22am
Thanks mcarter, great info. And is the fw tank in the 178 just behind the axle like in lostagain's 172? Yours  being empty I can easily run the numbers starting from FR's specs if you don't already know your actual weights then.  Did you have a single full propane tank and a battery on the tongue? 

-------------
1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 04 Nov 2018 at 10:27am
We have not gone much beyond seat of the pants "CG balance" similar to lostagain and mcarter. Our TV/TT combo gives us a lot of leeway. We have towed with full FW, and with near-zero FW. Likewise, we have had varying amounts of black and gray, depending on where/when we decided to dump. We have had no issues, but our TV really gives a lot of freedom.

I will note that not long ago, we were traveling through Pacheco Pass, and stopped at the rest area/interpretive center above San Luis reservoir. At the center we spotted an F-150 with a RP-172 in tow parked in the lot, and there was a stream of water draining from the back. Upon seeing that and the owner, he commented that he was transporting the pod from storage to another place, and he'd forgotten to drain the FW tank. He said it made the pod act "squirrelly"; especially when passing big rigs.

So the storel to the morey is tha you need to pay attention to the weight and balance, and each pod/TV combination is going to have its quirks and idiosyncrasies.


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bp
2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River
2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 04 Nov 2018 at 10:44am
Thanks GlueGuy. I've never had any sway either, even with my relatively light TV and sway control disabled, but with a 550-570 lb (15%) tongue wt outbound and maybe 12% inbound I wouldn't expect any. But I'd like to reduce that figure (I was surprised at first it was that high) and that's why I'm looking for a minimum safe tongue wt (preferably based on actual experience rather than just generally accepted practice). 

Pacheco Pass is a notoriously windy place, I can see why someone could have issues there even without the trucks. 


-------------
1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 04 Nov 2018 at 11:21am
offgrid, we have 2 heavy 6v batteries and the propane tank on the tongue.  I tried mounting the spare there too, but it got in the way of backing.  Thankfully, the tire bracket was cheap.  

We never had a microwave [which would be pretty much over the axle] and took out the tele and heavy particle board table [aft of the axle].  Food tends to get packed above the galley and fridge, so it is pretty much centered over the axle.  We have a heavy cast iron dutch oven along with the drinking water under the dinette seat.  In the storage area at the far back, we keep probably 40 or 50 lbs of stuff such as tools, cables, charcoal, wood for blocking, and a jack.  

Forward, we tend to have our clothes up on the shelf I made from the old 172 upper bunk and the new shelf I just added.  Below the bed, we have probably about 100 lbs of stuff, such as the solar panel and controller, some folding chairs, sheets and towels, and the infamous r-Pod eyebrow shade.  Our mattress is a 4" dense foam pad that I'd include in the 100 lb. estimate.  If anything, i'm probably a little heavier on the tongue than your suggested 11%, likely more in the range of 12 to 14% based on my "Zen" of trailer loading.  When we travel with the fresh water tank full, I'll put some of the gallon water bottles forward to avoid being too heavy aft.

What ever we're doing seems to work fine with the truck.  


-------------
Never leave footprints behind.
Fred & Maria Kearney
Sonoma 167RB
Our Pod 172
2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost


Posted By: jato
Date Posted: 04 Nov 2018 at 2:14pm
Offgrid, when we bought our 177 home in March 2011, it was in the midst of a tremendous snow storm, snow on the roadbeds averaged anywhere from 4-8" except when we crossed the 5 mile long Mackinac Bridge where it had been freshly plowed.  At that time we had a 2 12v group 24 batteries, with a propane tank on the tongue and empty fw tank.  No sway encountered.  Fast forward to May of 2011 we have added an extra propane tank on the tongue and have filled our 30 gallon aft fw tank; had to turn around after 15 miles as we could go no faster than about 40 mph without severe sway.  The TV at that time was an '08 Explorer.  After that we purchased an anti-sway bar link, problem solved.  Since then we have duplicated the above scenerio with and without a full fw tank of water.  Scale shows 350 lbs. tongue weight with an empty fw tank, haven't weighed with a full tank of water.  Regardless, over the 7+ years we have owned the 177, the following vehicles have towed it: '94 F-150 4x4, '11 F-150 4x4 and '13 Explorer and currently all 3 are still used to tow it.  The interesting thing here is that with the above 3 vehicles I have towed our 177 with and without a full tank of water of speeds up to 65 mph and have experienced zero sway, even with head and cross winds up to 15 mph.  The newer Explorer has a wider track than the older one, hence more stable.  Also with the pick-ups, much longer wheel base, again more stability noted. Nevertheless outside of when I did these tests using these 3 vehicles I always hook up the anti-sway bar link when traveling regardless of when vehicle I am towing it with.

-------------
God's pod
'11 model 177
'17 Ford F-150 4WD 3.5 Ecoboost
Jim and Diane by beautiful Torch Lake
"...and you will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free."


Posted By: jato
Date Posted: 04 Nov 2018 at 2:16pm
Forgot to add, our 177 dry weight (based on 1 battery and 1 propane tank) and w/o the following: no A/C, no convection/microwave, no entertainment system is 2440 lbs.

-------------
God's pod
'11 model 177
'17 Ford F-150 4WD 3.5 Ecoboost
Jim and Diane by beautiful Torch Lake
"...and you will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free."


Posted By: mcarter
Date Posted: 04 Nov 2018 at 2:33pm
Offgrid, Yes to all questions.

-------------
Mike Carter
2015 178
" I had the right to remain silent, I just didn't have the ability."


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 04 Nov 2018 at 3:26pm
thanks mcarter.

The listed empty weights for the 2o15 178 are 257 tongue and 2535 trailer, so right at 10.1% tongue wt. All your added stuff should be about 390 lbs and it I estimated distances right about 20 additional lbs on the tongue. So, you should have been at about 9.5% on the tongue. 

So now we have a few data points for rPod trailer sway susceptibility:

7%?  (guy on physics forum) catastrophic sway, trailer stops swaying only when it hits back corner of TV
9.5% (mcarter's 178) sway causes anxious moments but not catastrophic.
11%?(Glueguy's Pacheco pass 172 guy) "a little squirrely"
12% (lostagain's 177) no sway
13-15% (offgrid's and Glueguy's 179's), no sway.

So far this is supporting maybe 11% as a min safe tongue wt rather than the "standard" 10% .  

Lets see if anyone else has any info. 


-------------
1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2018 at 12:54pm
Jato was good enough to remind me that he had already shared his sway data. His 177 had dual batteries and a single propane on the tongue and a full fresh water tank aft when he experience significant sway at only 40 mph. I back calculated his tongue weight to be right about 10% at that point. 

I've added his data to the list:
7%?  (guy on physics forum) catastrophic sway, trailer stops swaying only when it hits back corner of TV
9.5% (mcarter's 178) sway causes anxious moments but not catastrophic.
10% (jato's 177 significant sway at 40 mph brought under control) 
11%?(Glueguy's Pacheco pass 172 guy) "a little squirrely"
12% (lostagain's 177) no sway
13-15% (offgrid's and Glueguy's 179's), no sway.

This is painting an interesting picture I think. It seems like the rPods are subject to sway at a bit higher tongue weight percentages than the generally accepted 10% number. 

Of course, there are plenty of other factors involved that will help to determine if sway will actually start (side wind from semi's, downhill braking, trailer tire pressures, etc, and even more factors as to whether the sway is damped out before it gets significant (weight and wheelbase of tow vehicle, tow vehicle tire pressures, antisway systems, etc. It's a complex phenomenon and from what I've read so far not as well understood from a mechanical engineering perspective as you'd think. 

Still, I think this information at least gives us an idea when you would want to start being concerned about it, probably anything below 11% tongue weight or so. By 10% sway is happening is some cases. 

That tells me not to try to move very much weight aft in my 179, if any. The 179's lose about 3.5% of tongue weight moving 30 gal of fresh water to 30 gal of gray water, and I'm currently right at 15% with the fresh tank loaded.  that would put me at about 11.5% if the gray tank was filled instead, about as low as I feel comfortable going. 

Thanks everyone. 


-------------
1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold



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