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Eco-diesel

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Topic: Eco-diesel
Posted By: Jholler
Subject: Eco-diesel
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2018 at 7:23pm
Anyone running a Ram 1500 Eco diesel? How is the actual mileage compared to the claims?



Replies:
Posted By: disputin
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2018 at 9:55pm
My father has one.  He gets nearly 29 empty and this summer he got 20 pulling a 3000 lbs chalet (much smaller wind profile than my rpod).

Sean


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Sean & Christine Whitney
2002 F150
2016 179HRE


Posted By: Leo B
Date Posted: 22 Sep 2018 at 5:50am
My brother is a dodge mechanic, I inquired about them a while back. He advised that they were having trouble with cam shafts breaking within the first 15,000 miles.
If Dodge has addressed that, it would be very tempting with those numbers.

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Leo & Melissa Bachand
2017 Ford F150
2021 Vista Cruiser 19 csk
Previously owned
2015 Rpod 179
2010 Rpod 171


Posted By: Jholler
Date Posted: 22 Sep 2018 at 9:08am
Heck, with a 10yr/100k power train warranty, even that isn't a deal killer for 29mpg!


Posted By: Richand Cindy
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2018 at 12:22pm
We bought a 2017 Ram Diesel to tow our new Keystone Passport (4700 lbs).  We get 26-28 mpg.  Pulling the trailer we get 13-14 MPG.  The power is amazing.  With our Jeep Cherokee pulling the RPOD we could feel the strain if we went above 65 and kept it at 58-60.  With the RAM we pass trucks on hills and often look down and see we are doing 75 mph and hit the brakes.  The gas mileage would be even better if we slowed down.  But with the equalizer WDH we forget we are pulling a railer.  They say the break even point for a diesel engine is five years.  Oil changes take one hour (they add oil drain and repeat three times) and costs 3-4 times a regular car.  But we love ours.  Has 11,000 miles and no problems with it.


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OLD 2017.5 RPOD 180 + 2015 Jeep Cherokee Trailhawk
NEW: 2018 Passport Elite 23RB + 2017 Ram 1500 Diesel


Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2018 at 12:46pm
Originally posted by Richand Cindy

We bought a 2017 Ram Diesel to tow our new Keystone Passport (4700 lbs).  We get 26-28 mpg.  Pulling the trailer we get 13-14 MPG.  The power is amazing.  With our Jeep Cherokee pulling the RPOD we could feel the strain if we went above 65 and kept it at 58-60.  With the RAM we pass trucks on hills and often look down and see we are doing 75 mph and hit the brakes.  The gas mileage would be even better if we slowed down.  But with the equalizer WDH we forget we are pulling a railer.  They say the break even point for a diesel engine is five years.  Oil changes take one hour (they add oil drain and repeat three times) and costs 3-4 times a regular car.  But we love ours.  Has 11,000 miles and no problems with it.
I question whether the payback is in 5 years. I'm sure it's possible, but what is the premium for the Eco-diesel? $3000? (that's a guess, I did not look it up). Add to that that diesel (around here anyway) is a 20% premium over straight gasoline, and that oil changes are a lot more expensive, and I have a hard time justifying that the mileage is maybe 50% better unloaded. We spend maybe $3000-$4000 for gasoline over a 3 year period.

I have no doubt that you're happy with your Eco-diesel, and I don't want to sound like I'm dissing it (because I'm not). However, I do have my doubts. I expect that it certainly would pay for itself if your annual mileage was high enough. At our 12,000-15,000 miles per year, I don't think we would qualify for the Eco-diesel discount.


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bp
2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River
2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost


Posted By: Jholler
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2018 at 2:16pm
Premium is about $5k. As for the fuel cost, I run the recommended 89 octane in my Hemi as it is to keep it from knocking, so it's around the same price as diesel, but I'd be getting 2-3 times the fuel mileage. (I average 10.2mpg in town).


Posted By: mcarter
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2018 at 3:46pm
+1 to Glueguy. I'm keeping my old gasser.

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Mike Carter
2015 178
" I had the right to remain silent, I just didn't have the ability."


Posted By: Leo B
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2018 at 4:10pm
I agree, we are getting 20-21 on the highway and 14 towing the pod, so I am content with that.

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Leo & Melissa Bachand
2017 Ford F150
2021 Vista Cruiser 19 csk
Previously owned
2015 Rpod 179
2010 Rpod 171


Posted By: Richand Cindy
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2018 at 4:11pm
I agree with everyone.  You need to really keep the diesel for a long time and at least a hundred thousand miles on it to really get the value from it.  We only got it because it was a left over and was $2000 more than the 5.7 hemi engine.  If we had to pay $4270 premium for it (sticker price) I think we probably would not have done it.  But for towing it is great with all that torque. And the gas mileage is that good because it is not 4x4.  We will never be in snow with it.  Another reason why it was so cheap.  Nobody wants a 4x2 diesel.


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OLD 2017.5 RPOD 180 + 2015 Jeep Cherokee Trailhawk
NEW: 2018 Passport Elite 23RB + 2017 Ram 1500 Diesel


Posted By: DavMar
Date Posted: 07 Oct 2018 at 4:20pm
Yes, everyone knows the cost of a diesel power truck is much more up front and the mpg is less then gasoline. Yet here is the thing a properly cared for diesel engine will last way, way, WAY beyond a gas engine and it will out pull it too. Any question about that then just ask yourself why they don't put gasoline engines in tractor trailers and buses? If you don't mind paying the premium and you plan on keeping a truck or car until the body falls off, plus you want a vehicle that will out pull everything on the road then diesel is the way to go. Though I have to disagree with Richand Cindy in that I've never heard of when you change oil in a diesel engine that "they add oil drain and repeat three times" that doesn't make sense! Yes it cost more for an oil change because the engine holds more oil and the filter is usually more expensive.


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Dave & Marlene J with Zoey the
wonder dog.
2017 Rpod 180
2016 Toyota Tacoma SR5 4x4
Lexington, NC


Posted By: mcarter
Date Posted: 07 Oct 2018 at 4:30pm
Hmmm, I have never seen anybody value a truck by a good diesel. They value by whole package. Not arguing the longevity of diesels, albeit they are considerably more to operate and the length of serviceable time is what it takes to recoup the initial expense. End of the day, a really crappy truck with a really good diesel, is a really crappy truck.

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Mike Carter
2015 178
" I had the right to remain silent, I just didn't have the ability."


Posted By: Keith-N-Dar
Date Posted: 07 Oct 2018 at 6:29pm
I purchased trucks for a company years ago and an engineer developed a formula to help decide if diesel was the right choice.  These were 3/4 on pickups that made deliveries and pickups within a 200 mile radius.  No trailer pulling.  The main decision point was miles driven per year.  If it exceeded 50,000 then diesel was the choice.  They were traded every five years.

This is far different duty that my personal truck.  If there was less up front premium with a diesel I would like one, but I am not sure I could build the economic justification.


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Keith-N-Dar
Boris & Betty (Boston Terriers)
2011 R-Pod 177
2010 Ford F-150


Posted By: ToolmanJohn
Date Posted: 09 Oct 2018 at 6:03am
 Diesel can't be justified on fuel economy alone. Especially if it's going to be the daily driver as well. A diesel holds the advantage for towing because of the high torque output at lower RPM's. This is why they last a long time and get decent fuel economy. If a gas engine was also kept at low RPM's it would get good fuel economy. Fewer RPM's, less fuel used.

 Modern diesels have many more sophisticated components that might fail compared to older diesel designs. Piezo Injectors, EGR Valves (Exhaust Gas Recirculation), Diesel Particulate Filters (DPF), Urea Injection- Diesel Emissions Fluid (DEF), all are somewhat modern technologies used for emissions. These are the problem areas for modern diesels. 

 That said, I really like my diesel SUV. There's nothing else like it, 4 doors, storage, AWD, AISIN 8 speed, strong engine, good towing, good fuel economy, and so far, not too many issues:

Water pump leak - warranty (6 hours)
AdBlue Tank Heater- Warranty, then again replaced under warranty with a new heater design (3 hours)
Oil Leak Front crankshaft seal - warranty (3 hours)
Brakes Replaces (76,XXX miles)- Only $600 for OE rotors and pads and sensors, self installed

Still have a couple years warranty left on powertrain. Hoping to see 10 years of service until deciding on replacement or just semi-retiring the SUV, and buying a small daily driver, keeping the SUV for towing duties and winter snow driving.


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2017 ATC 7X20 Custom Toy Hauler
2013 R-Pod 177 (SOLD)
2013 VW Touareg TDI


Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 09 Oct 2018 at 1:05pm
Originally posted by ToolmanJohn

 Diesel can't be justified on fuel economy alone. Especially if it's going to be the daily driver as well. A diesel holds the advantage for towing because of the high torque output at lower RPM's. This is why they last a long time and get decent fuel economy. If a gas engine was also kept at low RPM's it would get good fuel economy. Fewer RPM's, less fuel used.
Part of the reason for diesel engine longevity is because of the crank/connecting rod/piston fortification required to deal with the rather high compression ratios used in diesel engines. If you look closely at the Ford EcoBoost engines, you will note that they have been "beefed up" in those areas. Of particular note is that they use 6-bolt main journals. 2-bolt are "standard" in gas engines, and 4 are "performance" modifications, 6 are almost unheard of in a gas engine. You will find that 4-bolt are common in diesel, with higher-end diesels sometimes have 6-bolt. You will also note that EcoBoost (turbo charged gas engines) produce almost 100% of their torque at only 2000 RPM, and are producing 90% of max at only 1700 RPM. That torque curve is virtually flat all the way to redline.That used to be diesel territory, but is one reason why EcoBoost engines are so great for towing.


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bp
2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River
2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost


Posted By: DavMar
Date Posted: 10 Oct 2018 at 11:23am
Interesting thread and its sparked an interest in me learning more about diesel motors that were used in buses and RV's such as the old Cat 3028 and Detroit Diesel's 6V92 and 8v92. Though what has really caught my interest and completely confuses me is what is the best late model diesel pickup truck sold today? Fords Power Stroke, Chevy Duramax, or the Dodge Cummings and what size engine? Now I don't want to start a flame war but it seems we have some members here that are much more knowledgeable then I that can enlighten me and we can have a informed discussion. So what's your opinion as to the best truck and why?

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Dave & Marlene J with Zoey the
wonder dog.
2017 Rpod 180
2016 Toyota Tacoma SR5 4x4
Lexington, NC


Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 10 Oct 2018 at 12:06pm
Originally posted by DavMar

Interesting thread and its sparked an interest in me learning more about diesel motors that were used in buses and RV's such as the old Cat 3028 and Detroit Diesel's 6V92 and 8v92. Though what has really caught my interest and completely confuses me is what is the best late model diesel pickup truck sold today? Fords Power Stroke, Chevy Duramax, or the Dodge Cummings and what size engine? Now I don't want to start a flame war but it seems we have some members here that are much more knowledgeable then I that can enlighten me and we can have a informed discussion. So what's your opinion as to the best truck and why?
Those are all good these days. The early GM diesels were "converted" gas engines that did not last long because of the aforementioned issues with the weak lower end (crank/connecting rods/pistons) that they grew out of. I believe those issues have all been worked out. I have yet to see a "bad Cummins".

That said, I think diesel is headed for a long, slow decline in popularity. After the VW (and other Mfgs) "cheating" scandals, it's clear that diesel fuel has a big problem in the long term. Perhaps not as bad as coal, but not far behind. One of the issues is sulfur content of diesel (note that most US diesels aren't sold in Mexico because of their high sulfur content diesel fuel). Mexico may eventually fix that issue, but I think the handwriting is on the wall long term.

Does diesel have 5, 10, or 15 years? I don't know. I think 15 years is probably as good a guess as any, but I'm not placing any bets.


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bp
2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River
2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost


Posted By: DavMar
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2018 at 1:29pm
GlueGuy you might be right that diesels will end up going the way of the dinosaur because of EPA controls and their high cost. It kind of blows my mind to see someone fork out 45 to 65K or more for a diesel powered pickup and 10 year old plus used models going for what the owners paid new. Yet new diesels trucks are still selling like hot cakes! Yes, they are a heck of allot of money to put out front new but I still see 20 year old and older diesel pickup trucks on the road. Now how many 20 year old plus gas pickup trucks do you see as daily drivers, not many!  

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Dave & Marlene J with Zoey the
wonder dog.
2017 Rpod 180
2016 Toyota Tacoma SR5 4x4
Lexington, NC


Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2018 at 4:16pm
Originally posted by DavMar

GlueGuy you might be right that diesels will end up going the way of the dinosaur because of EPA controls and their high cost. It kind of blows my mind to see someone fork out 45 to 65K or more for a diesel powered pickup and 10 year old plus used models going for what the owners paid new. Yet new diesels trucks are still selling like hot cakes! Yes, they are a heck of allot of money to put out front new but I still see 20 year old and older diesel pickup trucks on the road. Now how many 20 year old plus gas pickup trucks do you see as daily drivers, not many!
Funny. I sold my 20-year old Honda Accord with I don't know how many miles on it. Our old 1985 Nissan King Cab is still chugging along with its 2.4L gas engine. That's 33 years and counting.


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bp
2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River
2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost


Posted By: mcarter
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2018 at 4:43pm
I had a 1993 Silverado 4X4 with 342K miles on it. I still own a 1976 Chevy, runs everyday. My TV is a 2006 Chevy, 146K. Like Glueguy, I have owned a ton of gassers that have lasted forever. Anybody want to talk the old Toyotas with the 22R? I had two of them that ran 300K plus. My experience is diesels do have longevity but not to the point I would prefer them over gassers. As I said there's a total vehicle quality issue. A really great diesel in a really crappy truck doesn't convince me I need a diesel.

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Mike Carter
2015 178
" I had the right to remain silent, I just didn't have the ability."


Posted By: Jholler
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2018 at 12:50pm
Traded yesterday. Let the 2010 ram 2500 with the hemi and 10mpg go for a 2014 ram 1500 with the 3.0 ecodiesel and 50k miles of power train warranty left. I'm averaging 23mpg in town, almost 30 on the highway. (Those numbers are for empty, no trailer on both trucks). Side by side comparison accounting for mileage and cost of fuel (I ran 89oct in the hemi) predicts $2000+ savings in fuel per year. MUCH smoother ride too, lol.


Posted By: Keith-N-Dar
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2018 at 1:25pm
That sounds great!  enjoy it. 


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Keith-N-Dar
Boris & Betty (Boston Terriers)
2011 R-Pod 177
2010 Ford F-150


Posted By: DavMar
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2018 at 6:54pm
Originally posted by Jholler

Traded yesterday. Let the 2010 ram 2500 with the hemi and 10mpg go for a 2014 ram 1500 with the 3.0 ecodiesel and 50k miles of power train warranty left. I'm averaging 23mpg in town, almost 30 on the highway. (Those numbers are for empty, no trailer on both trucks). Side by side comparison accounting for mileage and cost of fuel (I ran 89oct in the hemi) predicts $2000+ savings in fuel per year. MUCH smoother ride too, lol.


Congrats! Pardon my ignorance but is that a Cummings motor, how many hp? Hope it gives you many trouble free motoring miles.


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Dave & Marlene J with Zoey the
wonder dog.
2017 Rpod 180
2016 Toyota Tacoma SR5 4x4
Lexington, NC


Posted By: ToolmanJohn
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2018 at 7:03pm
Originally posted by DavMar

Originally posted by Jholler

Traded yesterday. Let the 2010 ram 2500 with the hemi and 10mpg go for a 2014 ram 1500 with the 3.0 ecodiesel and 50k miles of power train warranty left. I'm averaging 23mpg in town, almost 30 on the highway. (Those numbers are for empty, no trailer on both trucks). Side by side comparison accounting for mileage and cost of fuel (I ran 89oct in the hemi) predicts $2000+ savings in fuel per year. MUCH smoother ride too, lol.


Congrats! Pardon my ignorance but is that a Cummings motor, how many hp? Hope it gives you many trouble free motoring miles.

The 3.0L V6 diesel engines used by Chrysler are built by VM Motari, Italy. They have been making diesels for a long time. 


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2017 ATC 7X20 Custom Toy Hauler
2013 R-Pod 177 (SOLD)
2013 VW Touareg TDI


Posted By: Jholler
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2018 at 9:29pm
That's right. Only 240hp, but 420lbs of torque. More torque than a 5.7 hemi, but less than the Cummins.


Posted By: Jholler
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2018 at 7:51pm
Haven't towed with it yet, but I'm averaging 23mpg in town...can't complain!


Posted By: DavMar
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2018 at 8:35pm
Jholler, not surprised at the mpg your getting with the 3.0 eco-diesel but am glad to hear it's so good for you. I bet when you tow with it you'll be wondering if your pulling anything behind you! You will have to let us all know how it goes when you do pull your Pod. I also hope your eco-diesel  engine works out well for you because all I read about it seems its kind of 50/50 with those who love it and those who's engines have failed. If you don't have to worry about passing emission standards where you live you might want to look into doing a "delete" where you eliminate your EGR, DPF, and DEF, which eliminates allot of problems with new late model diesel engines. Just google "diesel engines delete" if your wondering what that is all about.


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Dave & Marlene J with Zoey the
wonder dog.
2017 Rpod 180
2016 Toyota Tacoma SR5 4x4
Lexington, NC


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2018 at 7:33am
Not to rain on the diesel parade too much because I actually think small diesels have a lot of potential, but bear in mind when comparing to gassers that a gallon of diesel contains about 12% more chemical energy than gasoline and low sulphur diesel costs on average about 14-15% more than gas. So whether you're after efficiency/low carbon output per mile or cost effectiveness you have to reduce your diesel numbers by about that fraction to be comparing apples to apples.

The 2018 4x2 Ram 1500 3.5L gasser is rated at 25 mpg highway, the same truck with the 3.0 Ecodiesel is at 27 mpg. That's about an 8% difference so you're actually behind with the diesel on that score.  I'm not doubting DavMar's personal comparison but you really have to use a standardized test to make a true comparison, and you know for sure that Dodge is going to work hard to tune each of their drivetrain combos to optimize results on those tests. The 5.7l hemi got 21 mpg highway, so the diesel beats that hands down,  but no one buys a hemi for fuel efficiency, right?  

Then there is the reliability question combined with the current emissions standards. You'd think that of all the diesel experience and money VW has that they would be on top of that but look what happened to them. I think ultimately the manufacturers will get that sorted and at that point diesels will probably be the way to go for pulling heavier loads longer distances, because fundamentally the engines can be more efficient than gassers.  But we're not there yet or at least it hasn't been proven yet by years of actual usage. 

Personally I can't afford to be a beta tester. I loved the hybrid concept from the first time I heard about it in the 90's, but I waited until the gen 3 Prius came out in 2010, 10 years after the first introduction before I bought one. Fantastic car, does everything you'd ever want it to do, super reliably and super efficient. But it won't tow an rPod...

And sorry but I very much disagree with deleting emissions equipment from vehicles, especially diesels. If you want to know what happens if everyone did that just spend a few weeks in a city in India like I did last year. Everyone drives diesels there because the fuel is subsidized and there are no emissions regs on them. You literally can't breath the air most days.  i basically stayed inside as much as possible to avoid the fine particle diesel pollution there, which is extremely hazardous. 

Just my $0.02. 

 


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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2018 at 8:29am
You may not want to rain on diesel's parade, but I will. First, there is no question that diesel is more efficient on an MPG basis; mainly because of the aforementioned higher energy value per unit volume.

However, the caveats are numerous. First a diesel version of most vehicles that have the option is a ~~ $5,000 premium to start. Second, diesel fuel costs 15-20% more than gasoline (at least it does around here). Third maintenance on diesels is typically much higher; the amount varies by region and vehicle. Fourth, even with the latest, greatest emissions, there is considerable debate about that being effective.

And then finally, there is the issue of "emissions cheating", which seems to be rampant in Europe. Sure, VW got caught, but based on what I've been reading, they are not the only ones; especially in Europe.

If you can get a killer deal like Jholler, it changes the equation quite a lot, so I'm not discounting something like that.


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bp
2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River
2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2018 at 9:27am
GlueGuy, everything you're saying is correct. 

But diesel engines thermodynamically are more efficient than gassers, for two reasons, maybe more. They run higher compression ratios and they don't have throttle plates. This is over and above any benefit from fuel energy density. If they weren't more efficient long haul truckers wouldn't use them.

Everything else being equal they would beat gas engines. But as you say, things aren't equal, at least not yet, and the emissions cheating is for sure a big setback. 




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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: DavMar
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2018 at 10:20am
You know guys this diesel vs. gas engine trucks all comes down to "each their own" of what you like what you don't. I'm interested in diesel powered trucks for a number of reasons and yes they have their pro's and con's. The pro being they can out pull, are more fuel efficient then a gasser, and they keep their value much longer without a doubt. Of course the negatives are as GlueGuy and offgrid state, higher cost up front for the vehicle and the maintenance, along with the emissions and all its associated problems. Unfortunately allot of problems late model diesel powered trucks and cars have are from emissions, with having to use ERG and injecting DEF fluid. Which like it or not GlueGuy is why allot of people in areas of the country that don't have emission control checks are eliminating these problems by what is called doing a "delete". Hopefully in the future they will develop a diesel engine that doesn't have to recirculate exhaust gasses or inject urea and deionized water (DEF fluid) into a special exhaust "muffler" thereby extending reliability and efficiency of a diesel engine. Still, if you like diesel trucks and can afford the up front cost and maintenance, I say go for it. Since you won't find any gas engine that last as long or can pull so much in daily use. Sure you'll see allot of old gas powered trucks and cars on the road, trucks that have gone through two or three engine rebuilds or swaps or are just weekend or show vehicles. Where as I know of many old daily driver diesel powered cars and trucks that have never had a rebuild and have many hundreds thousands of miles on their odometer. As I said in the beginning it all comes down to "each their own" both gas and diesel have their pro's and con's, yes?


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Dave & Marlene J with Zoey the
wonder dog.
2017 Rpod 180
2016 Toyota Tacoma SR5 4x4
Lexington, NC


Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2018 at 10:48am
From what I understand, the Ford Ecoboost engines have some of the same features (such as more and sturdier bearings) of Diesel engines, and should be very durable. Unfortunately, when we had our accident and had to replace our Escape with a Frontier, I lost the Ecoboost engine, so can't verify the longevity of it. The downside of the Ecoboost is the need to run premium gasoline which, in many of the places we were traveling, was more expensive than Diesel fuel. That would swing the equation in favor of Diesel for me. However, the price of a new one is way beyond my capability at this time.

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StephenH
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,...

http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods
Former RPod 179
Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS


Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2018 at 12:11pm
Originally posted by StephenH

From what I understand, the Ford Ecoboost engines have some of the same features (such as more and sturdier bearings) of Diesel engines, and should be very durable. Unfortunately, when we had our accident and had to replace our Escape with a Frontier, I lost the Ecoboost engine, so can't verify the longevity of it. The downside of the Ecoboost is the need to run premium gasoline which, in many of the places we were traveling, was more expensive than Diesel fuel. That would swing the equation in favor of Diesel for me. However, the price of a new one is way beyond my capability at this time.
If you compare the horsepower/torque of the 2.7L EcoBoost to the slightly larger 3L diesel that just came out, the gasser wins in horsepower, and is only slightly less in the torque department. If you compare the torque curves, I'm willing to bet the EcoBoost wins the torque equation for most of the usable RPM range (pretty sure the EcoBoost has better torque at the low end).

Long, long term I still think electric, in some form or fashion will kill both the diesels and the gassers. The latest drive units from Tesla are designed to last a million miles, and they produce maximum torque from zero RPM. That's hard to beat. Today's Lithium batteries are head and shoulders above any previous battery technology, and I'm hopeful we will solve their problems in the next decade or so; with who knows what chemistry.


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bp
2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River
2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2018 at 12:24pm
DavMar, I'm good with diesels. We might all be driving them in 20 years if we're not already driving ev's. Now there is some serious torque for you, and zero pollution controls to ever worry about:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ii98Vb5KdIA

And I'm 100% good with everything you're saying except the "deletes" part. That is just polluting the air everyone has to breathe. Like I said, I've seen what it looks like if everyone does that. It ain't pretty. 

Just because its not being checked doesn't make it OK to do. In fact....its mostly if not entirely illegal. 
If you have to do that kind of stuff to make functional use of your vehicle, then well...get another vehicle. IMHO that's where personal choice ought to end, and civic responsibility start. 

And if the manufacturer knowingly sold vehicles that couldn't function right without doing that then they should pay for the mess. VW's bill is about $35 billion so far. 


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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: DavMar
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2018 at 5:23pm
offgrid, never said I would circumvent pollution controls on late model diesel trucks by doing a "delete" with eliminating the ERG, DEF, ect. I can't control what other people do to improve reliability and fuel economy on their trucks. Its just that whether we like what they do or not its just the way it is now. Hopefully someday in the very near future engineers will design diesel engines that make doing modifications like that a thing of the past.

Glueguy, your vision of the future with electric powered vehicles might be absolutely right as motor and battery technology continue to improve. There very well maybe a day when you see locomotives and semi trucks, along with your family truck and car, all powered by electric motors. Although I think were still at least a generation away from this technology but who knows what around the corner? The torque from an electric motor is awesome which is why the newest locomotive engines use AC traction motors and the older models DC motors.

Now back to the original question I asked which if you had to choose one of the big three automakers who makes the best diesel powered truck? Is it the Powerstroke by Ford, Duramax of Chevy, or Dodges Cumming or new Eco-diesel? I know not allot of our T.V. ares diesel powered but I'm sure there are allot of my fellow forum users here that have a world more of experience then I have with diesel trucks. So I'm interested in hearing what is your opinion and why? Smile 


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Dave & Marlene J with Zoey the
wonder dog.
2017 Rpod 180
2016 Toyota Tacoma SR5 4x4
Lexington, NC


Posted By: David and Danette
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2018 at 1:07am
   Walmart has ordered 45 Tesla electric trucks and plans on converting their entire fleet to electric that's a lot of trucks. Electric trucks for a passenger vehicle that will tow a small camper may be available not to far away in time.

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2018 Vista Cruiser 19BFD (2018-              
2012 Vibe 6503 (2014-2019)
2009 r-pod 171 (2009-2014)
Middle Tn
2014 Ram 1500 Quad cab




Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2018 at 7:11am
No need to wait at all for your car or SUV to be electric powered. There are excellent (and yes even affordable) ev alternatives right now. And if range fear hampers you there are even more hybrid vehicle choices, which also put the torque of electric motors to the drive wheels. I would have bought a Highlander Hybrid rather a convention V6 Highlander but the tow rating is reduced to 3500 on the hybrid version.

For pickups its not there yet. There is an aftermarket company that modifies F150's and 250's to be hybrids/plug in hybrids for fleet use. And apparently the 2019 Ram 1500 comes standard with "mild hybrid" technology. Mostly a fast start/stop feature but there is also a little regen braking.  It's a start. 


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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: Jholler
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2018 at 9:56am
The new RAM "mild hybrid" is interesting tech. It eliminates the alternator altogether, using regenerative braking to charge a battery pack that is used for electrical needs. According to my dealer, if the battery dies, the whole thing can be replaced for about $1800, which is a HUGE difference from EV and hybrid battery replacement. I'm excited about it, I just as a rule don't like to be the guinea pig with first year new tech.


Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2018 at 10:04am
One of my buds has a Nissan Leaf. His commute to work is only 5 or 6 miles, so the round trip to/from work is a no-brainer for it. He plugs it overnight, so he never goes to a gas station. He got it on a promotional lease, and it costs $80/month. Less than a basic mobile phone plan. When the commute backs up into a parking lot, it sits there silently burning no fuel at all.

I have to believe that his situation is not all that unusual.


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bp
2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River
2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2018 at 11:27am
Jholler, "mild" hybrids are not new tech, they have been on the road for a long time. GM even had one on the Silverado  for awhile in the early '00's, why they pulled it is a bit of a mystery.  The technology is for sure pretty crude compared to a "real" hybrid, but it does at least shut off the engine when idling, so that is the major savings in city driving. 

I don't know where the idea comes from that replacing the batteries in a hybrid is expensive, its not. I can replace the battery in my Prius for less than what your dealer is telling you the cost in the Ram is. Assuming I ever have to replace the whole thing. Most people get well over 200k miles out of theirs, and then usually its only a couple of cells that go bad. Its only a 1.5kwh battery after all. 

The drivetrain itself is bulletproof, the electric motors (there are 2) are integrated into the planetary drive to create a continuously variable transmission that never changes gears and babies the gas engine, so it also lasts for a really long time. Depending on how each of the motors' field coils are supplied they can act in forward, reverse, as motors, as generators, or both.   Truly an awesome piece of tech, take a look on youtube for an explanation of how it works sometime. There's a reason that most of the taxis you see today are Prii, those guys regularly get 400k miles out of them without overhauls or battery replacements. 

Full ev batteries would cost a lot more to replace because they're much larger, but they're Li Ion and last forever, as long as they are actively cooled and heated, like in the Volt, Bolt, and Tesla. The Nissan leaf gave evs a bad rep originally because in their rush to be first to market they didn't put in effective temp management and had some failures in AZ and other hot places. Even if you have to replace your ev batteries you can buy used ones from a salvage place, the cars are wrecking out a lot faster than they're failing mechanically so there are plenty available. 


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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: Jholler
Date Posted: 27 Oct 2018 at 9:00pm
Should have said "The new RAM's mild hybrid", sorry. The tech isn't new, but the 2019 is the first RAM it's been in.



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