Costs of Alternatives for Running Fridge
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Topic: Costs of Alternatives for Running Fridge
Posted By: offgrid
Subject: Costs of Alternatives for Running Fridge
Date Posted: 07 Sep 2018 at 6:59am
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I was enjoying the debate on what energy source to use to run our fridges. So, nerd that I am, I thought I'd add another dimension to it. This table gives an estimate of the daily fridge run costs under various scenarios. I am NOT getting into the debate about the safety of driving with propane or not. This is strictly about costs. Ranked from cheapest to most expensive. Solar is "free" if you have extra because you've already made the investment. So if you're boondocking and have a sunny day with excess solar, consider switching your fridge over to 12V for awhile. Grid electricity is "free" as well if you've already made the decision to pay for hookups for other reasons. Even if you're paying for it its still the cheapest after using your excess solar. This was based on US average electricity costs, it gets really close to propane though in high electricity cost states. What's interesting to me is that propane is cheaper than 12V from the TV even while driving. That's because the first law of thermodynamics says there ain't no free lunch, the extra load on your alternator running your fridge while driving will cause you to burn more gas. Then come the various genny based electric operations, avoid those for sure. And the worst is to run the fridge on 12V from your TV, an astounding $7 bucks plus per day because of all the wasted fuel idling.
------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Replies:
Posted By: Leo B
Date Posted: 07 Sep 2018 at 7:22am
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Really interesting! Nice work! ------------- Leo & Melissa Bachand 2017 Ford F150 2021 Vista Cruiser 19 csk Previously owned 2015 Rpod 179 2010 Rpod 171 |
Posted By: furpod
Date Posted: 07 Sep 2018 at 7:27am
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great write up and comparison.. remember to "run the fridge on solar", there is going to be some cost in a large enough storage solution to get you through the night at least, and a solar array big enough to top it off even on not so sunny days... I would submit that the electrons used while towing are nearly as free as the ones used while on solar.. the truck is going to make those, whether you use them to run the fridge or not. Modern alternators don't have near as much parasitic drag as old ones, or, if you are as old as me.. generators.. Also, here at least propane is 2.21 a gallon for refills. Don't ever exchange if you don't need a recertified bottle.
also.. as a side side note, never use those 1 pound cylinders of propane unless you have to carry them in a backpack or something.. They work out to being about $80 for the same amount of propane in a 20 pound cylinder, which can be refilled for about $12... in 2 refills you will pay for any and all hoses and connectors possibly needed to run on the Pod's onboard low pressure, or from a stand alone 20 pouinder at high pressure. ------------- |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 07 Sep 2018 at 8:59am
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I wouldn't suggest adding to your solar and battery system just to run your fridge, at least not from a cost standpoint. With solar and batteries you are still paying for your electricity, just doing it up front, I'm certain propane would be cheaper than that, especially considering battery replacement costs over time.. Especially if you're getting your propane that cheap, I just got my big residential tank filled and it was over $3 a gallon. I beg to differ on the "free alternator electrons theory". That would be a violation of conservation of energy, and unless your TV runs on nuclear power that isn't going to happen. The alt has to put out an additional 11 amps which will require additional torque, which will load the TV internal combustion engine which will burn more gasoline.... ICE's are about 18-25% efficient (more basic thermodynamics). I assumed 22%, and 20% alt and wiring losses. That's just the way it is...which is why if you're heating something electricity is not the best way to go compared to directly burning the fuel. If you really want to run your fridge on electricity cost (and weight) effectively, convert to a 12V Danfoss compressor based system. Those work great and have been around for over 35 years now (I tested and installed my first ones for NASA in solar powered medical fridges in Africa in the early '80's. That was an interesting trip. It's what most of the blue water cruisers use who either don't want to or can't carry enough propane. The reason this is cost effective is they are heat pumps not absorption coolers and so have a coefficient of performance around 2. That partially makes up for the 20-ish percent engine efficiency, and also would reduce your solar and battery requirements by about a factor of about 2. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 07 Sep 2018 at 2:29pm
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offgrid, what a great analysis. It really is informative and helps understand the real costs. There is one question I have, the price of propane seems a little high - at least in rural northern NV. Seems like last time I bought it the price was about $2.25 a gallon or something around there. That puts the cost on par with shore power more or less. And, a comment: You left off my wind turbine idea. I know it's new and novel, but, but, And, why doesn't someone invent a cold fusion generator or a perpetual motion machine that defies the first law of thermodynamics. After all laws are there to be broken.
------------- Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
Posted By: TheBum
Date Posted: 07 Sep 2018 at 3:30pm
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Propane was $3.99 a gallon the last time I filled up in the Dallas area (last Saturday). Nevada is probably not a good barometer because they are a sparsely populated state that gets a lot of income from gambling and hotel taxes. I doubt that they have the high fuel taxes that some other states have. ------------- Alan 2022 R-Pod 196 "RaptoRPod" 2022 Ram 1500 Lone Star 4x4 Three cats |
Posted By: mcarter
Date Posted: 07 Sep 2018 at 5:02pm
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Honestly I have monitored gas mileage on many trips. The alternator load didn't effect mileage in anyway. The AC did as did road conditions. The alternator output does change, the drag on the belt didn't change, the output of the alternator did. Because of demand. I like the effort but not sure that increased alternator output has a measurable difference to gas mileage and the cost of fuel. ------------- Mike Carter 2015 178 " I had the right to remain silent, I just didn't have the ability." |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 07 Sep 2018 at 5:29pm
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Propane prices are really volatile (pun intended). And as furpod says swapping tanks at the gas station is the worst. But I admit to doing it often rather than trying to hunt down a place that will actually fill my existing tank. I’d rather be camping.. Here on the OBX it costs nearly the same to swap or get your tank filled because they can, it’s a tourist area and there aren’t many alternatives.
If you want to adjust the prices for the various fuels and for electricity for your area then you can just scale the numbers by the ratio between what I put in my spreadsheet and your actual costs. Or if you send me a PM I can send you the spreadsheet. I doubt things will change very much though in terms of ranking costs. I’m thinking your wind turbine would be one of the ones sailors use? You’d have to figure out a quick sturdy mounting system, they need a lot stronger structure than solar. Might work great in the NV desert. Some Burners use them on the playa don’t they? Would be fun to do and a big attraction at your campsites 😜. Wind is going to be like solar, you’re buying your energy up front. If you have extra, I’d use it instead of propane for the fridge and water heater. If not then run the propane. You can go ahead and try to break the laws of thermodynamics. I’m getting too law abiding in my old age I guess. If you choose that path I also have a good deal for you on a bridge over the East River in NYC. Let’s talk. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 07 Sep 2018 at 6:09pm
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For those who forgot or never learned the 3 laws of thermodynamics.
Snow’s corollary: You cannot win (that is, you cannot get something for nothing, because matter and energy are conserved). You cannot break even (you cannot return to the same energy state, because there is always an increase in disorder; entropy always increases). You cannot get out of the game (because absolute zero is unattainable). Or just remember the acronym TANF (there ain’t no free lunch). ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 07 Sep 2018 at 6:20pm
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TheBum, sorry you live in such a high tax state. Here in Heaven/aka Nevada, I think the only tax you pay on propane is sales tax which varies county by county, but is always in the 7% range. I didn't count the tax in my suggestion of a price. offgrid, yes, I was thinking of marine wind turbines. They are usually mounted on the stern rail, with a post to keep it up out of the way. I'd be a bummer to back into those spinning blades. The anticipated wind they have to withstand in normal use is often in in excess of 60 miles per hour or over 50 knots. Not sure what the wind speed is that they feather the blades and cut off generating. I think the trailer is in danger of tipping over before land wind speeds would become a problem for the turbine, assuming a solidly mounted post. i suppose, like the high efficiency boiler PSEG wanted to sell me in New Jersey, it all depends on how much of the cost you can recover before you die or otherwise stop using it. Checking Amazon, they have some pretty interesting units (some regular propeller blades and some kinda U shaped) and they are pretty cool looking in the order of magnitude of $500, give or take a few hundred. Who knows how well they'll really hold up and what their real service life would be. But the thing I like the best about the idea is how cool it would look on top of a Pod, centered on the forward roof, with struts connected to the aluminum frame on the side walls; like it's part of the propulsion system for the trailer. Wings attached to the back sides would really top it off. As for me, everyday in my old age I have less and less reason to be law abiding. ------------- Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 07 Sep 2018 at 7:27pm
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Lostagain, i just looked up one on ebay, 130$, 400 Watts at 30 mph, startup at 4 mph, supposed to survive 110 mph. That is almost enough to survive the hurricanes out here on the OBX. Ask me if I believe it. I’ve been here in 115 mph winds. Not fun.
But at that price why worry about it? Hmmmm. But DW would reject the idea bc she wouldnt want me to be killing any birds. One thing I can say about wind though is that it’s highly variable, energy generation goes with the cube of the windspeed. And its much more site specific than solar. But if you know u have good wind access where you camp, go for it. I don't think the overturning moment from that size turbine would be that bad. With a very quick calc I came up with about 600 ft lbs at the roof of the rpod. Wouldn’t come anywhere near overturning your trailer. But I didn’t spend enough time on it to be confident. You could always stow it in high winds, you’ll need to do that to tow anyway. Share some pics when u get it set up... ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 07 Sep 2018 at 7:43pm
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I'm far, far to lazy to go to all the trouble to take the concept to fruition. I'd rather go camping with my simple and easy to use flexible 100W solar panel. As we try to keep things to a minimalist's level, we've no need for such a Rube Goldberg contraption. [I still think it'd look really cool.] As for cubes of wind speed, the only cubes we should really be thinking about are the number of ice cubes needed for a good margarita. But, as I previously observed, I would never waste good Herradura Reposado by putting it into margarita mix. Finally, as for birds, it's a question of teaching them to get the heck out of the way when they see the Pod coming. Those that learn the lesson will also know to avoid all those propellers in the wind farms and those that don't, well, hopefully they're game birds that will go well with a nice sherry sauce. ------------- Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 07 Sep 2018 at 7:59pm
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I have several neighbors who have attempted to use wind power. It is often the least expensive way to generate energy, but also the least reliable. Every single one of them has abandoned their wind power projects in favor of solar. Solar is hard to beat, no moving parts (other than electrons/holes), and a 20-30 year life span. Wind power can work, but it needs to be up-scaled quite a lot. We're talking about wind turbines with 100' blades. Get that to work on your R-pod. ------------- bp 2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River 2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2018 at 4:30am
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In addition to the bird problem you've got the noise. Someone in the campground is gonna complain that those 100 meter rpod mounted turbine blades violate quiet hours rules. The solar vs. wind debate has been going on for nearly 40 years now. I keep thinking my side has won but there's still a bit more installed wind than solar capacity
Anyway, its back to hurricane tracking for me. 5AM forecast just came out. Florence's track keeps shifting south. I could use some of that good tequila over here. Stocking up at the ABC store is top priority in my hurricane emergency plan for today. Relocating the pod to higher ground has to wait. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2018 at 7:44am
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I've been around the little sailboat sized wind generators and I have to say, they are in a different class than the 100m blade wind turbines that you see in the wind farms of Nebraska. They make no discernible noise at all. If the wind is blowing what little noise they make is overcome by the noise of all the boat rigging with halyards clanging on the mast, wind whistling in the rigging, and other stuff going clunk as it bounces around in the breeze. And I've never seen a dead seagull in the vicinity of a wind generator with obvious impact wounds. Not say'in it doesn't happen, just my anecdotal experience, which proves nothing. The real problem I've found with the small boat type wind generators is that they stop generating at a max of about 40 knots or about 50 mph. If one was to be developed to use on an RV it would need to be able to work at speeds up to 70 for the vehicle plus an allowance for headwinds. That's an engineering issue that some fine engineer will solve if someone ever decides to build one. And since it doesn't have to be built, necessarily, to marine grade as would one on a boat, that gives the engineer more options on materials. Though wind generators may not be ideal for an rPod sitting still, the original suggestion was made to give it an energy source to run the fridge while moving, a condition in which there is, by definition, always wind. And the flaw in the hypothesis is finding a device that can operate under wind conditions found while driving.
------------- Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2018 at 7:52am
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There would be the additional drag of such a wind generator mounted on the 'Pod while towing. That would increase fuel consumption so the wind energy would not be "free."
------------- StephenH Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2018 at 9:24am
lostagain, I wasn't thinking you were planning to run this thing while towing.  StephenH is 100% right. The good old second law of thermodynamics (you can't break even) would come into play and you would be way way behind trying to convert gasoline into battery charge this way. From a quick look it appears that the turbines are about 40% efficient, and the TV engine is about 20% so overall less than 10% of the chemical energy in the extra fuel burned would be transformed into electrical energy in your battery. Stow it flat, rig a couple linear actuators to it and wire it to your slide out switch so you can push one button and everything would deploy when you got to the campground.  ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2018 at 10:13am
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Of course there would be additional drag. If you read one of my earlier posts on the topic, you will note that I said there would be extra fuel consumption. There would be additional drag from the device and supports and there would be additional drag caused by the force necessary to move the propeller blades, turn the generator, and move the electrons. Another element that would have to be investigated in regard to windage would be whether it would be more efficient to mount it fore or aft (like the pusher prop on some home built planes). I wonder how it would affect the wind turbulence following the trailer that the little foil is supposed to help? It could create a lot more drag, thus energy consumption, or it could help reduce it. Some wind tunnel testing may be in order.
Oh, how I wish there was a perpetual motion machine to give us free unlimited energy. But, alas, there isn't. There is always a price to pay, it's a question of trade-offs.
And that's why we don't mount unicorns to the top of Pods either. ... even though they'd really look cool.  ------------- Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2018 at 11:02am
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You can't win, you can't break even, and you can't get out of the game...Science sez so. The sun has been around about 5 billion years and will be around for another 5 billion. The earth continuously receives 174 petawatts (thats 1.74x10^17 watts) from the sun. Humans use about 18 terawatt hours (1.8x10^13 watt hours) of energy annually. So the earth gets enough solar energy to meet all of humankind's annual energy requirements in about a third of a second. Close enough to perpetual and unlimited free energy for me! Besides, if that's ever not enough we can build a Dyson sphere to capture all the sun's energy. It would block all the starlight though which would spoil the fun sitting around the campfire at night. The TV antenna on my pod is kinda a unicorn these days I think, I haven't watched broadcast TV since the 80's. Gotta get that thing off there. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2018 at 1:54pm
------------- bp 2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River 2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2018 at 2:20pm
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Glueguy, do they still have network TV!? I haven't had cable for 10 years. No landline either. Streaming only, via cellular data unlimited data plan. Have a cell booster and directional antenna for the Pod. I still get old school Netflix discs in the mail though. Let me know if you want an extra TV antenna. Once I get that and the roof air off I can cover the whole top of the pod with solar, edge to edge with 72 cell modules which coincidentally are the same length as the pod is wide. I'll just go over top of the fantastic fan and the tank vents. Where in Norcal are you? I was in Santa Cruz before moving to the OBX. Miss the weather (or more accurately I miss the lack of weather) but not the cost of living. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2018 at 2:46pm
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We went one step further, with a savings in energy I might add, and took the tele out of our Pod. Less weight to lug around and we never watched it anyway. If we are desperate to watch a screen with entertainment, tethering the Mac to the cell phone (assuming there is service) works fine for the German romance movies with dubbed Spanish. And we can charge the phone and Mac with the surplus energy we have from our solar panel. It'd be nice to mount solar panels to the roof, like they did on the wings of Solar Impulse, so that we can run the fridge, but that's an awful lot of work and money to invest for the moment. Camping takes priority. ------------- Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2018 at 3:45pm
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I installed this cell booster system in my Rpod 179. I clamp the pole for the high gain directional antenna to the flange of the slide. I leave the onmi antenna that comes with the kit on the TV, and move the booster cradle over there while driving. Works quite well 80-90% of the time with the directional antenna, but there actually still has to be a signal to boost. In the bottom of some ot the WV hollows I sometimes camp in, not so much. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u47bXmgoIQ There are lots of other really interesting techy videos on Tom's website. Definitely worth a look,especially the series on his 24V salvaged Tesla battery pack install. 5 kWh battery weighs 55 lbs and is 80-90% useable so more like 4x a dual golf cart setup at half the weight and 10x the cycle life. We actually use the television quite a bit especially on rainy days so I swapped for a 12V one, only uses about 1.5A. 1 kW of surplus commercial size modules can be had for less than about $400 now. For sure there will be lots of work involved. Should be a fun project. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: jato
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2018 at 7:50pm
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Wow, sun is 5 billion years old? Hmmm. From the RISE project done in the 1990-'s scientists had to capitulate on the age of the earth to no more than 12,000 years and that is on the liberal end. This figure was arrived by looking at the half life of helium, and seeing how much helium is currently in our atmosphere. Life cannot exist w/o this important gas but there is a minimum and maximum amount that is allowable for life to exist as we know it. Also, remember that when you exchange your propane tank for another you are only getting one that is 75% full verses when you go to a local hardware store, or other that will actually fill you up, it is actually full. ------------- God's pod '11 model 177 '17 Ford F-150 4WD 3.5 Ecoboost Jim and Diane by beautiful Torch Lake "...and you will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free." |
Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2018 at 8:27pm
------------- bp 2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River 2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost |
Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2018 at 11:01pm
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We take our propane bottles to the local Tractor Supply which is the cheapest around and fill them. We're charged for the amount they put into the bottle, whether it's fully filled or otherwise. We've got one old tank that I have to do an exchange on for one with a newer manufactured date. Though you pay a little more for the propane, if you search the dates on the tanks, you can get a newer one that has a decent service life without having to hassle with disposing of the aged out tank. RISE project, earth only 12K years old? hmmmm? I think that's a topic best left for a board that has topics other than rPods. ------------- Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 11 Sep 2018 at 10:36am
------------- bp 2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River 2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2018 at 6:49am
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Are you sure it was helium? Helium is stable, doesn't have a half life. Helium is the least chemically reactive element known, so it doesn't participate in the biochemical reactions required by living things, or any chemical reactions for that matter. Helium is useful for life for breathing mixtures for divers as a substitute for nitrogen to avoid nitrogen narcosis, aka "rapture of the deep". It's also good for filling dirigibles rather than using hydrogen, just ask the Hindenburg survivors if any are still around. And speaking of potentially exploding gas containers, that brings us around to propane tanks so we are back on topic ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: Our pod
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2018 at 9:00am
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There are isotopes of helium, and these have half-lifes. This fact does not support any claims of a young earth. ------------- Life is good. |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2018 at 9:45am
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Yep, you are correct Our Pod. There sure are. The longest lived one is He6 with a half life of 801 milliseconds. And because of this they don't exist in nature. Only He3 and He4 which are both stable. So the radioactive He isotopes are irrelevant. Isotopes With A Known Natural Abundance
Known Isotopes
------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2018 at 10:01am
offgrid, are you suggesting that my memory of riding on the back of brachiosaurus in 1965 is the result of an herbal fog? .... a false memory?  I'm just kidding folks, I never really did anything bad in 1965. ------------- Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2018 at 10:36am
 ------------- bp 2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River 2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2018 at 10:54am
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Hey, c'mon, you guys are off by 15 years. 38 years ago was 1980. I'm not so old that I was doing solar in 1965! I was 11 and PV was only on a few comm satellites then.... By 1980 we were selling it commercially. Our big markets: Norcal pot growers for pumping water and navaids for the Coast Guard. The price? $15 per watt...in 1980 dollars ($46/watt in 2018 dollars). Yep, only the government and pot growers had enough cash for solar modules back then. Talk about economies of scale, that's a 100 fold price decrease. Unfortunately, we have to thank the Chinese for that, we gave up our leadership in solar manufacturing in the late 90's. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2018 at 11:28am
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Solar is still electrical, and the rules for electricity have not changed. Solar panels have gotten invented, and improved now for a few decades, but the rules were created by Georg Ohm in 1827. Those have not changed. ------------- bp 2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River 2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost |
Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2018 at 12:45pm
LOL! None of of strayed from the straight and narrow in 1965. It wasn't until 1968 that we started to get kinky. 
I moved to SF for college in '67 and I promise, it was pretty strange then. In 1965 it was pretty kinky even in places like Bakersfield, .... one of the many reasons I left. Not even the electrons and protons would follow the rules. ------------- Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
Posted By: Billy Bob
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2018 at 1:32pm
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I wanted to see how much propane we have used....3 weekend trips and one 8 day trip. Though I can't verify how full my propane tank was new, I pulled it off and stopped at Costco. 1.81 gallons is all it took to top the tank off. $4 bucks is all for that usage. Not bad. ------------- 2019 RPOD 190 2017 Chev Colorado 4 X 4 Yellow Lab and English Springer Spaniel |