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Dual Batteries and solar

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URL: http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=11586
Printed Date: 29 Apr 2024 at 4:50am
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Topic: Dual Batteries and solar
Posted By: Unclewillis
Subject: Dual Batteries and solar
Date Posted: 19 May 2018 at 12:46pm
Hi everyone,

Currently I have one battery installed. So when I boondock I hook up the solar panel with alligator clips straight to the battery pos and neg poles for charging.

So if I had two batteries in series. How would I clip on the terminals correctly to charge?

Thank you




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Daddy, Mommy and Daughter.
BlackJack & Keno (boston Terriers)
Rpod 176T 2015
Nick:
ouR-pod



Replies:
Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 19 May 2018 at 1:03pm
We wired our solar to the output terminals of the pair of 6v. batteries that are wired in series.  I installed permanent plugs to attach the solar controller without needing to open the battery boxes.  We used it on our most recent trip and kept the batteries nicely charged.  

Hook your positive to the positive terminal that runs to the trailer.  The negative that goes to ground on the other battery is the other connection point.  You may want to consider setting up permanent plugs so you can run your solar panel without the need to take the lids of the battery boxes.


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Never leave footprints behind.
Fred & Maria Kearney
Sonoma 167RB
Our Pod 172
2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost


Posted By: Olddawgsrule
Date Posted: 19 May 2018 at 3:47pm
12's or 6's, look at where your connections are. Match it. 

Your output connections match your input. 

Love to know what your doing for Solar..


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https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJduGeZNFgtptH67leItRFQ - Byways no Highways
2017 Tacoma
http://tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=72408 - Truck Camper Build
2004 F150 My Overlander


Posted By: Unclewillis
Date Posted: 19 May 2018 at 4:14pm
Im using the Renogy 100 watt foldable suitcase with built in controller. has worked great with the single batt. just not sure how to clip into dual batt in series setup.

going to use the golf cart batterys. 6V in series.



-------------
Daddy, Mommy and Daughter.
BlackJack & Keno (boston Terriers)
Rpod 176T 2015
Nick:
ouR-pod


Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 19 May 2018 at 6:19pm
Originally posted by Unclewillis

Im using the Renogy 100 watt foldable suitcase with built in controller. has worked great with the single batt. just not sure how to clip into dual batt in series setup.

going to use the golf cart batterys. 6V in series.
If you have two 6V batteries, just hook the solar + to the + on one battery (same one connected to the trailer), and the solar - to the - on the other battery (again, same one connected to the trailer).

If you have two 12V batteries, then they are connected in parallel, so solar + to either + and solar - to either -.

As said above, just connect to the same terminals that go to your trailer.


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bp
2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River
2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost


Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 19 May 2018 at 6:30pm
While we were on our last camping trip, one of the other couples we caravaned with had a 50W foldable solar unit that had a little controller with it.  It was really nice and easy to put on and take off.  If the sun is nice and bright, it should be enough to charge up your batteries.  I think his was an ACO.  He got it from Amazon.

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Never leave footprints behind.
Fred & Maria Kearney
Sonoma 167RB
Our Pod 172
2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost


Posted By: Olddawgsrule
Date Posted: 20 May 2018 at 6:26am
Originally posted by Unclewillis

Im using the Renogy 100 watt foldable suitcase with built in controller. has worked great with the single batt. just not sure how to clip into dual batt in series setup.

going to use the golf cart batterys. 6V in series.


That should work very well for you! Anything smaller (unless your in a wide open area) is tough to get back what you use.
I have a 130w (full size, not foldable) and it does very well!
Also dual 6's for plenty of power.

I tend to mention this a bit, it's important if you have not yet. Do an energy audit. See how many amps/watts you actually use. You can estimate it on paper, but a good cumulative meter is better. 


-------------
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJduGeZNFgtptH67leItRFQ - Byways no Highways
2017 Tacoma
http://tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=72408 - Truck Camper Build
2004 F150 My Overlander


Posted By: Unclewillis
Date Posted: 20 May 2018 at 12:04pm
thanks everyone!!

-------------
Daddy, Mommy and Daughter.
BlackJack & Keno (boston Terriers)
Rpod 176T 2015
Nick:
ouR-pod


Posted By: Tom A
Date Posted: 20 May 2018 at 9:08pm
Originally posted by Olddawgsrule

Originally posted by Unclewillis

Im using the Renogy 100 watt foldable suitcase with built in controller. has worked great with the single batt. just not sure how to clip into dual batt in series setup.

going to use the golf cart batterys. 6V in series.


That should work very well for you! Anything smaller (unless your in a wide open area) is tough to get back what you use.
I have a 130w (full size, not foldable) and it does very well!
Also dual 6's for plenty of power.

I tend to mention this a bit, it's important if you have not yet. Do an energy audit. See how many amps/watts you actually use. You can estimate it on paper, but a good cumulative meter is better. 

Do you have a link you can share for the "130w" that you like so much?


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2018 Sequoia--2018 RP 190


Posted By: mrm435075
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2018 at 12:35pm
Think of 2 D cells in a flashlight, the positive of one touches the negative of the other. The two together equal 3v, so the - terminal is the bottom of one battery, and the + terminal is the top of the other.
The cable that connects the batteries is the + touching the -. The - terminal is on one battery, and the + is on the other.

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Michael
2019 R-Pod 179 HRE Cocoon
2011 Tacoma TRD 4 door


Posted By: FrayAdjacent
Date Posted: 20 Aug 2018 at 2:11am
A 100W panel, with a good controller and decent weather should provide about 50Ah worth of charge during a good day. 

Do note that if you go with 6V batteries, the capacity in Ah does not add. Two 100Ah 6V batteries only give you 100Ah at 12V.

If you're not running an inverter, or something that draws a massive amount of current, there's really no advantage to multiple 6V batteries in series. 


Posted By: Olddawgsrule
Date Posted: 20 Aug 2018 at 6:35am
Originally posted by FrayAdjacent

A 100W panel, with a good controller and decent weather should provide about 50Ah worth of charge during a good day. 

Do note that if you go with 6V batteries, the capacity in Ah does not add. Two 100Ah 6V batteries only give you 100Ah at 12V.

If you're not running an inverter, or something that draws a massive amount of current, there's really no advantage to multiple 6V batteries in series. 

True if your a weekend warrior, yet go for any distance (week or so), boon-docking, and you'll want the dual 6's.
 
My dual 6's are 230ah. Same cost as decent 12v (type 27 or 31) with greater capacity. Just saying..

http://www.batteriesplus.com/productdetails/sligc115 - http://www.batteriesplus.com/productdetails/sligc115




-------------
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJduGeZNFgtptH67leItRFQ - Byways no Highways
2017 Tacoma
http://tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=72408 - Truck Camper Build
2004 F150 My Overlander


Posted By: RichC
Date Posted: 20 Aug 2018 at 6:55am
We just did 7 nights boondocking in Wyoming (Zamp 80, 2 - 12 v batteries). We were fine.

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2017 RP171
2018 Ford Explorer


Posted By: Olddawgsrule
Date Posted: 20 Aug 2018 at 7:21am
Originally posted by Tom A

Originally posted by Olddawgsrule

Originally posted by Unclewillis

Im using the Renogy 100 watt foldable suitcase with built in controller. has worked great with the single batt. just not sure how to clip into dual batt in series setup.

going to use the golf cart batterys. 6V in series.


That should work very well for you! Anything smaller (unless your in a wide open area) is tough to get back what you use.
I have a 130w (full size, not foldable) and it does very well!
Also dual 6's for plenty of power.

I tend to mention this a bit, it's important if you have not yet. Do an energy audit. See how many amps/watts you actually use. You can estimate it on paper, but a good cumulative meter is better. 

Do you have a link you can share for the "130w" that you like so much?

Sorry about being late on this..

Mine are dis-continued, but I'm a big fan of this site. Panels (both hard and flex) can be purchased for $1 a watt.
http://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?catId=0&initiative_id=AS_20180820040044&isPremium=y&SearchText=100w+solar+panel - http://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale? http://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?catId=0&initiative_id=AS_20180820040044&isPremium=y&SearchText=100w+solar+panel - catId=0&initiative_id=AS_20180820040044&isPremium=y&SearchText=100w+solar+panel

I still debate going flexible.


-------------
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJduGeZNFgtptH67leItRFQ - Byways no Highways
2017 Tacoma
http://tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=72408 - Truck Camper Build
2004 F150 My Overlander


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 20 Aug 2018 at 10:19am
I assume that when you get 50AH deliverable to your loads from a 100 watt module, you are talking about a perfectly clear summer day, no shade, and you're frequently manually tracking the sun during the course of the day? 

With the normal losses due to module heating (10-15%) and battery roundtrip efficiency (15-20%), not to mention manufacturer rating optimism and conductor losses, I use an assumption of about 30AH per day per 100 watts here in the Mid Atlantic under typical summer conditions. But I'm lazy and mount my modules horizontally and don't move them.  Again, I'm a long term solar guy but just want to be realistic  so as not to set too high of expectations.  YMMV. 


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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 20 Aug 2018 at 10:55am
As a former PV module design and qual test engineer for many years, let me attempt to talk you out of spending money on "flexible" PV modules. Off the top of my head here are 4 reasons:

Solar cells are fabricated on crystalline silicon wafers. That is a brittle material. The cute marketing video on the Sunpower website where the guy is folding the wafer works (once) because the cell is very thin. But ask him what happens when you apply constant bending stress to those cells or flex those cells multiple times. Microcracks will ultimately propagate across the cell and it will fracture, often opening the entire cell circuit, which is in series.  Dead module. 

The polymer superstrate used on the "flexible"  modules is not nearly as robust and the glass superstrate used on conventional modules. It will degrade, discolor, and is prone to cupping. Then there is the risk of hail damage. Dead or low performing module. 

The "flexible' modules are intended to be attached directly to a roof or other rigid surface. By not providing back side cooling these modules will run hot, reducing performance and further reducing product life. Much better to use conventional modules in a stand off mounting configuration that allows some airflow to cool the backside.   

Cells in modules are in series, and the current generated by them is proportional to the irradiance they receive, so if the intent is to attach the "flexible" modules to a curved surface like the front part of an rPod, there will be a significant performance degradation because the cells won't all be receiving the same irradiance levels. 

Bottom line, typical manufacturer's warranties on conventional modules are 25-30 years. Flexible ones are 1-5 years. So, if you won't be frustrated if you have to replace your modules every few years at best, and weight is critically important, then "flexible" is the way to go, but be sure you have a way in mind to remove them from whatever they're attached to without causing damage so you can replace them. If not then stick with conventional glass superstrate modules, you'll be a lot happier in the long run. You pay your money and take your chances. 


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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: Olddawgsrule
Date Posted: 20 Aug 2018 at 1:32pm
Originally posted by offgrid

As a former PV module design and qual test engineer for many years, let me attempt to talk you out of spending money on "flexible" PV modules. Off the top of my head here are 4 reasons:

Solar cells are fabricated on crystalline silicon wafers. That is a brittle material. The cute marketing video on the Sunpower website where the guy is folding the wafer works (once) because the cell is very thin. But ask him what happens when you apply constant bending stress to those cells or flex those cells multiple times. Microcracks will ultimately propagate across the cell and it will fracture, often opening the entire cell circuit, which is in series.  Dead module. 

The polymer superstrate used on the "flexible"  modules is not nearly as robust and the glass superstrate used on conventional modules. It will degrade, discolor, and is prone to cupping. Then there is the risk of hail damage. Dead or low performing module. 

The "flexible' modules are intended to be attached directly to a roof or other rigid surface. By not providing back side cooling these modules will run hot, reducing performance and further reducing product life. Much better to use conventional modules in a stand off mounting configuration that allows some airflow to cool the backside.   

Cells in modules are in series, and the current generated by them is proportional to the irradiance they receive, so if the intent is to attach the "flexible" modules to a curved surface like the front part of an rPod, there will be a significant performance degradation because the cells won't all be receiving the same irradiance levels. 

Bottom line, typical manufacturer's warranties on conventional modules are 25-30 years. Flexible ones are 1-5 years. So, if you won't be frustrated if you have to replace your modules every few years at best, and weight is critically important, then "flexible" is the way to go, but be sure you have a way in mind to remove them from whatever they're attached to without causing damage so you can replace them. If not then stick with conventional glass superstrate modules, you'll be a lot happier in the long run. You pay your money and take your chances. 

Very good response! All points well stated!

The absolute best I have seen on my 130w is 6a an hour (battery was low enough that a full charge was happening). Typically, mid 4's (I will see only 2a, in full sun, if the batteries are fairly full which is normal). Which is fine by me, for I only consume 17a-20a daily as I am currently setup.

Again, Well stated!




-------------
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJduGeZNFgtptH67leItRFQ - Byways no Highways
2017 Tacoma
http://tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=72408 - Truck Camper Build
2004 F150 My Overlander


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 20 Aug 2018 at 2:53pm
Thank you Olddawgsrule.

Your 6A max current is just about right from a 130W module. You might see as high is 7A under perfect conditions. The 2A output is your charge controller doing its thing floating the battery and providing enough current to maintain whatever load you might have operating during the day. You of course wouldn't want the current to be higher than that after full state of charge is reached. 

For a 17-20 amphour/day load the 130W is a good choice as it will also maintain your battery under fall/winter conditions when an average day is about half the irradiance you get in the summer (about 2.5-3 sunhours vs. 5-6). I think you also have a 230AH battery bank which means you have about 6 days (no sun) autonomy to the recommended 50% max depth of discharge for lead acid batteries. That's going to take you through pretty much any extended cloudy period.  I'd assume you essentially never need to run a genny or a grid connection with that setup. 

For myself, I'm running through about 70-75AH/day in the summertime (2/3 of which is running fans, its hot in NC in the summer) so will need to go for at least one 350 watt-ish commercial/residential size module. I've got basically the same battery setup you do. I expect to need to continue to run my genny occasionally in summer and daily in fall/winter. And now the DW wants to be able to run the air conditioner part of the time... 

Which leads me back to your recommendation to the OP that an energy audit be done prior to making a decision on what size solar configuration to get. I 100% agree. Everyone's usage is going to be  different. 

I'm reposting the measured current draw of each item in my 2015 179 here in case it helps folks with the load estimates. If you estimate the daily run time for each item in hours or fractions of an hour, multiply by the current draws and sum, that should yield a pretty good estimate of the total daily load in amp hours.   Pump, heater, and water heater on time is not the time that you have the switches turned on, its the time each of those appliances is actually running.
single led lite 0.2
dual led lite 0.4
bath lite 0.3
outside lite 1.4
small 12 V clamp on fan 0.5
fantastic fan h 2.8
fantastic fan m 1.9
fantastic fan l 1.3
fridge 12V (don't use this except while towing!) 10.7
water pump 5.0
TV  12V, easy conversion.  1.5
Radio 0.4
heater when on 2.0
water heater when on  0.6


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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold



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