What's up with snow type tires on new trailers?
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Topic: What's up with snow type tires on new trailers?
Posted By: lostagain
Subject: What's up with snow type tires on new trailers?
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2018 at 9:20am
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Recently I've noticed that a lot of new travel trailers are equipped with some very aggressive tread tires that appear to be snow tires (not so sure about the * rating). What's the advantage of these tires aside from being kinda cool. Do they have better traction on wet roads? It would seem that they would be less stable because they appear to have less surface contact with the pavement. Can they be used without chains in states that allow winter snow tires on trailers? Is their load and speed rating better? What's the story? Just for curiosity, I've looked a little in the Internet for this type of tire and haven't found any for sale in places like e-trailer, Amazon, etc. ------------- Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
Replies:
Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2018 at 9:43am
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Functionality-wise, I don't think it makes too much difference. Although off-road tires will often be rated higher (Like D or even E). They do look more gnarly. ------------- bp 2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River 2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost |
Posted By: Leo B
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2018 at 12:27pm
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They would work good up here.................we usually get 10 months of winter and two month of bad skiing. We had tires like that on a Flagstaff pop up that we started camping with. Would be nice on some of the remote state sites that we have. ------------- Leo & Melissa Bachand 2017 Ford F150 2021 Vista Cruiser 19 csk Previously owned 2015 Rpod 179 2010 Rpod 171 |
Posted By: voisj
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2018 at 10:50pm
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Having 4 wheel drive with snow tires my whole life, I can tell you that snow tires help and give way more traction on snow and mud, and shortens stopping distance and will hold a curve better in snow and mud on slippery roads. (But Black Ice always wins). During heavy snow in the Sierras it's chains (or cables) required on any highway, or 4 wheel drive with mud and snow tires, but you must carry chains with you. And all major highways going up have a checkpoint. But if chains are required and you are towing you must chain up the trailer no matter what your towing with even if you have snow tires on the trailer.
------------- http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=9426&title=slopod-180-mods-johnsue - SLOPODMODS John&Sue,SLO,CA 2016 180 HRE, 2013 F150 Eco Boost 
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Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2018 at 11:55am
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I think I should have stated my question more artfully. I understand the difference for passenger and light truck all season (M&S) and winter rated snow tires with either the snow flake symbol or the snow flake symbol with mountain peaks. I also understand that ST rated tires are specifically designed for trailers with heavier fabric and stronger wire so that they have stiffer sidewalls and can sustain higher air pressure, thus reducing trailer sway, and higher load capacities. What is not clear to me is what the the specifics are for the aggressive tread pattern tires that seem to be showing up on single axle lightweight travel trailers. Do they actually qualify for the winter driving snow flake or mountain snow flake designation that makes them qualify as winter driving tires in places like Quebec, where winter driving tires with softer rubber compounds and aggressive tread designs are required? Or are they just another version of all season M&S tire with a "gnarly" tread that looks cool. Are they bias or radial ply? What is the logic for putting on tires that look like winter snow tires when it is not very likely that many people will be using them in the snow for reasons other than the thrill of pulling a trailer on icy, slippery, snow covered roads? (With black ice, chains or studs are the only thing that helps much.) It would seem to me that regular all season M&S ST rated tires would be a better all around choice for rain wet pavement, dry pavement, and dirt roads that one would likely traverse when camping in the boondocks. The reduction in the total surface contact with the pavement from the super aggressive tires would seem to reduce traction in rain wet or dry pavement conditions, especially with strong winds putting lateral loads on the trailer and tires. For the few occasions where you have to drive in snow (unless you are a regular snow camper) it might be all around safer to carry chains and use them if required. Bottom line, is this a marketing ploy to add to the temptation to buy a travel trailer that looks like it could go anywhere or is there a real advantage to this type of tire. My suspicion, is that it's the former. ------------- Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
Posted By: Keith-N-Dar
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2018 at 3:03pm
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I got hammered some time back for saying this. The only thing "off road" that makes any difference is the higher ride height. Even that is not nearly enough for a serious off roader. If you look at most trailers with the gnarley tires they are given things like plastic diamond plate guards and knobby tires to market them to outdoorsey folks. Even with the tires and risers the first creek crossing or boulder field the trailer will be at least stuck and more likely broken. Personally I wouldn't want the noise and vibration from "off road" tires on the trailer. Last spring I pulled our Pod over Donner pass in snow. The enforcement folks were pleased with the tires on my 4X4 tow vehicle and never looked at the trailer. I am surprised to hear trailers need to have chains on in mountain passes. I have never seen a semi with chains on the trailer. I see the chain guidelines from California and Nevada DOT semi trailers need chains on the outside rear tires (2, one on each side). The diagrams also show trailers behind non commercial vehicles do not need chains. Best suggestion is to check the rules for places you may be going in the snow. have only pulled twice in snow: once as said over Donner Pass and once in the Big Horn mountains a few years ago. If I can avoid it I will. ------------- Keith-N-Dar Boris & Betty (Boston Terriers) 2011 R-Pod 177 2010 Ford F-150 |
Posted By: voisj
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2018 at 11:10pm
I looked up the Chain requirement http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/roadinfo/ChainRequire.pdf - CADOT link and in the notes (#3) it says, "• Trailers with brakes must have chains on one axle." The diagrams don't show this. I worked in Tahoe for two years and drove out to Kirkwood with a trailer every day while building homes there. Got denied on Luther Pass and bought cable chains and all was good. Only had to use them 2 other times. I now carry them in the pod during the winter just in case. But most likely I would wait it out somewhere. It makes sense to me that if your towing a trailer with brakes without chains, and your TV has chains and you hit the brakes on an icy corner, the trailer will slide out to the side if the trailer brakes lock up on the snow. And to attempt to answer Lostagain's original question. Aggressive tread tires do not hydroplane as easily as street tires when there is lots of water on the road.
------------- http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=9426&title=slopod-180-mods-johnsue - SLOPODMODS John&Sue,SLO,CA 2016 180 HRE, 2013 F150 Eco Boost
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Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2018 at 9:39am
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Stands to reason. "Most" of the time, the trailer is just following along. The only time the trailer actually needs traction is when braking and/or cornering. So during icy/snowy/rainy/muddy situations, a more aggressive tread pattern might be needed. Now for a controversial subject, let's talk about how much we need nitro filled tires? ------------- bp 2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River 2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost |
Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2018 at 10:12am
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Voisj, thanks for your reply. I looked into the that issue as well when I first posted my question. Hydroplaning is less of a concern than other factors such as load capacity, sidewall stiffness, and ability to maintain a much higher air pressure in the tire. Optimal hydroplaning protection, according to some of the articles I read, is achieved with a relatively deep directional V pattern tread. This is not what the trailer sellers are putting on the new trailers and I suspect they are not really worried about trailer hydroplaning. The principle factor in hydroplaning, assuming you have properly inflated tires that have adequate tread depth, is excessive speed for conditions. Granted hydroplaning can occur at speeds as low as about 35 or 40, it is usually the front wheels that are most affected as they are the first wheels to hit the water, are controlling direction of travel. The following tires have the benefit of the water being somewhat pushed out of the way by the leading tires. Thus, when towing in inclement weather, especially with slick road conditions, the first thing one would want to do is slow down to a speed consistent being able to safely transit though the conditions encountered. In addition, since a trailer is being pulled, as opposed to controlling the direction of travel, it seems to me that it should be less susceptible to the adverse effects of any degree of hydroplaning that may occur, unless you are going so fast around a curve that the centrifugal force., combined with the loss of traction on the pavement, allows the trailer to whip out from behind the TV. Again, that would suggest that someone is driving a lot faster than is safe for conditions. I looked all over for ST rated "off road" tires and found none, at least not in any relevant sizes for r-Pods. What I did find was that it appears that many manufactures are offering "off-road" tires as an option, but they appear to be standard LT design that have a lower load capacity, less sturdy side walls and lower air pressure, thus do not provide the benefits designed into ST rated tires. I think Keith is right that the real "off road" factor for a trailer is in axle ground clearance. All the cool diamond plating, big gnarly all terrain tires and such are more for appearance than function. Even with the 2 inch OEM lift I put into our Pod so I wouldn't scrape the driveway, I would never take the trailer out in true off road conditions no matter what tires I had on it. Without raising the axel out of harm's way, the tires aren't going to make any difference. I keep coming back to the conclusion that it is a marketing strategy that has nothing to do with performance. If, as I suspect, trailer manufacturers are selling trailers with LT tires, some smart lawyer is going to nail them big time for a "design defect" when his/her client has an accident that can be shown to have been avoidable had the proper ST tires had been installed. ------------- Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
Posted By: Tars Tarkas
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2018 at 7:42pm
Nitrogen? I use a 78% blend. TT ------------- 2010 176 FJ Cruiser |
Posted By: geewizard
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2018 at 7:07am
x2. I get mine locally. ------------- 2021 Winnebago Micro Minnie 1708FB 2017 R-Pod 177 (Blue) HRE SOLD 2004 Outfitter Apex 8 camper 2014 Toyota Tundra DC |
Posted By: geewizard
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2018 at 7:10am
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I like having M+S tread on my Rpod. What I don't like is that my local tire place was unable to properly balance my Rpod tires/wheels due to the cheap tires. Obviously, I also believe it's important to have balanced tires on a trailer. ------------- 2021 Winnebago Micro Minnie 1708FB 2017 R-Pod 177 (Blue) HRE SOLD 2004 Outfitter Apex 8 camper 2014 Toyota Tundra DC |
Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2018 at 9:25am
------------- bp 2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River 2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost |
Posted By: voisj
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2018 at 2:44pm
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I also like the fact that I have mud and snow tires on my r pod. I find myself boondocking on dirt roads out in the deserts and on Forest service roads (that's where all the Real good stuff is) and even though they're pretty well-graded, there's rocks and stuff and I got to think that these tires hold up to that a little better. ------------- http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=9426&title=slopod-180-mods-johnsue - SLOPODMODS John&Sue,SLO,CA 2016 180 HRE, 2013 F150 Eco Boost
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Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2018 at 4:19pm
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voisj, are the tires rated ST or LT? If ST, where did you find them? If LT: What is the max air pressure you can put in the tires? How many plies are in the sidewalls? What is the weight rating? Since we live near Reno, we often end up crossing Echo summit with some regularity on the way to the Bay Area, I'd like to get tires that are rated M&S for the trailer, though I'm not so sure if CA chain rules will still require chains when towing. On the other hand, I don't want to risk not having ST rated tires on our Pod. The LT's are not really designed for the loads imposed by trailers, according to what I've been able to find on the topic. We do tow with our standard Goodyear ST 205/74R14's on dirt roads and forest service roads and have never had an issue with the tires. It is the clearance under the axle that's been the limiting factor on this sort of road. When we replace them, I will probably go to a 235 or so tire or maybe even go up to a 15 inch rim to add a little more ground clearance. We've also towed in some pretty nasty cross winds and the trailer has been remarkably stable (I suppose from the E2 WHD hitch and the stability of the ST tires, but I certainly could be wrong.) ------------- Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
Posted By: JandL
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2018 at 11:16pm
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I installed off road tires on my trailer and I think they are a more rugged tire than the standard trailer tire. Here's my posting on them
http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7053 - New Tires The tire's weight 36 lbs. that 7.7 lbs. heaver per tire than the equivalent trailer rated tire and a Max Load 1,985 lbs. at 50 psi per tire. ------------- JandL 2013 Honda Ridgeline 2012 177 2 Paynes in a Pod |
Posted By: voisj
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2018 at 10:24am
My tires are the stock hood river edition mud and snows, I bought the pod new in mid 2016 so they are less than 2 years old and have about 17 thousand miles on them. I plan to replace them with an E rated LT tire that matches what is on my truck when we head to Alaska this summer, they look like this.  ------------- http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=9426&title=slopod-180-mods-johnsue - SLOPODMODS John&Sue,SLO,CA 2016 180 HRE, 2013 F150 Eco Boost
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Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2018 at 11:10am
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JandL, those are some fine looking tires; indeed, the very definition of “knarly.” But, that being said, I still have some uncertainties about such tires on a trailer and whether they are really advantageous. In your link, you point out a number of differences between the LT and ST tires, but it’s not so clear whether the difference present an advantage. The design needs for each type of vehicle are not necessarily the same. If I understand your analysis, the advantages to the T/A tire are that it has a larger diameter [thus slightly taller], is a half inch wider, has a weighs more and has a higher speed rating. The width of a tire may or may not provide an advantage in that it is the amount of tire surface area actually in contact with the road that really matters. On dry or rain wet pavement, a T/A tire may actually have less “rubber on the road” as a more conservative designed tread. Certainly, when you’re in mud or snow, the surfaces area of the tire in contact with the surface on which you’re driving increases [with a declining coefficient of friction], but at speeds appropriate to those conditions, is it really a significant advantage? And how many times do most Podders drive in those conditions? The aspect ratio of 75 gives you a slightly higher tire, so you gain about a .4 inches in ground clearance [the other half of that height advantage is above the center point of your axle so it doesn’t count]. The slightly higher sidewall also increases stress on the sidewall, which is one of the strength factors that’s designed into an ST tire. They have heavier fabric in the tire body so if you are comparing a 6 ply tire, the ST would be inherently stronger and better able to resist the lateral forces on the sidewall than a 6 ply LT. The fact that the tire is heavier is of dubious advantage in that it adds to the GVW but the extra weight is likely the additional thickness of the rubber on the tread which adds no strength to the tire. The speed rating is nice, but driving trailers over 65 mph may not be such a good idea and in many states, for example CA, it’s illegal. Speed rating on a tire is a function of the rubber compounding and it’s resistance to heat and potential tread separation. And, there is, at least on e-Trailer, a pretty good selection of ST tires that have an M rating for speed [81 mph]. Check out this 10 ply E load rated tire for example: https://www.etrailer.com/Tires-and-Wheels/Kenda/AM10303.html The weight capacity difference between the ST and the LT on the two tires you compared presents a distinct disadvantage for the LT, to the tune of 1,160 pounds less capacity. And if you go to the tire in the link on e-Trailer, its load capacity for two tires is 2,430 pounds greater than the LT. Additionally, the extra steel they put into the ST tires allows them to run at much higher pressure, thus reducing the rolling resistance of the tire. My interest in all terrain tires for our Pod is to avoid having to wallow around in the snow putting chains on when we cross the Sierra Nevada mountains. It doesn’t look like that can be avoided by A/T tires. I checked into the chain/snow tires rules for CA and NV and both states require chains on vehicles towing a trailer, both for the TV and at least one trailer axle that has brakes. A quote from the Nevada rule: “All vehicles, including four wheel drive vehicles, that are towing trailers must have chains on one drive axle.
Thus, it looks like, at least in those states, I’d still be wallowing around in the snow messing with chains. So, aside from really cool looking tires, the advantage still seems to be with the really boring and ordinary looking ST tires. ------------- Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2018 at 2:00pm
Just picking a nit I guess. ------------- bp 2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River 2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost |
Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2018 at 6:33pm
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If you took the trailer to a public scale and weighed its gross weight, those nitty tires would be in the total. And the TV still has to move the total weight. Not that it's all that much, but is heavier is generally not an advantage. @ 7.7 lbs. per tire, that's about 4 liters of tequila you'd have to leave home to compensate for the extra weight [based on the weight of one unopened 1L bottle of Herradura Reposada Tequila]. Now that's serious. ------------- Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
Posted By: poston
Date Posted: 14 May 2018 at 1:19am
I agree. I've been running through my mind how the off-road tires would help where you're not turning or applying power. I can see limited benefit in braking on a muddy or snowy surface, but that's it. They do look cool, though, but I don't want to spend money for that. And I live off-road, literally. ------------- -- Jim Virginia City, Nevada 2016 R-pod 180 2015 Nissan Xterra Pro-4X |