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Battery charging

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Forum Name: Podmods, Maintenance, Tips and Tricks
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URL: http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=10974
Printed Date: 19 Apr 2024 at 7:52pm
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Topic: Battery charging
Posted By: Olddawgsrule
Subject: Battery charging
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2017 at 8:50am
I'm now looking at generators and researching ways to re-charge the batteries when 'push comes to shove'.

Disappointing thing is the onboard genny 12v system looks like only 6amps. So I'm thinking of going to a 'bench' charger when required. I found this one I like so far.
https://www.amazon.com/BLACK-DECKER-BC15BD-Battery-Alternator/dp/B00KNMKRU8/ref=sr_1_14?ie=UTF8&qid=1512309639&sr=8-14&keywords=battery+chargers+automotive

What I like:
Auto adjustment of amperage with high at 15a
Car start mode (never know if you'll need it)
Maintainer (pulse mode to de-sulfate the battery)
Onboard battery voltage meter
Runs on <2.5amps (120v)

Cons:
The typical I find with all genny's... You start with DC power (lots of it!), convert to AC, only to convert back to charge the battery. Drives me nuts!! LOL

I'll have to research Black+Decker genny's some more to see if even 'they' incorporated their charger into 'their' genny. Probably not, it would just make to much sense to do something like that.. LOL


  


-------------
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJduGeZNFgtptH67leItRFQ - Byways no Highways
2017 Tacoma
http://tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=72408 - Truck Camper Build
2004 F150 My Overlander



Replies:
Posted By: Tars Tarkas
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2017 at 9:30am
I'm confused.  It seems you think the onboard converter isn't powerful enough; I guess that's a matter of opinion, and you may be right for your purposes.  But If I understand, you want a more powerful battery charger (you're use of the word "genny" is one thing that's throwing me), I guess so you can charge depleted batteries more quickly.

You have to have shore power for your B&D thing to work, as you do with the onboard converter.  As a practical matter, if you have shore power, you usually have it long enough to top up your battery with the onboard converter.  You're probably hooked up overnight.

Now, I don't think this is clear, but it could be you are talking about times you don't have shore power but you do have a generator; likely an inverter generator, plus a battery charger to charge batteries faster.  Maybe that makes sense.  For those situations when you have to charge your Pod battery quickly, some stout jumper cables hooked up to your tow vehicle might work though.

If you're boondocking and want to charge your battery indirectly with your generator I'd skip the B&D charger and just run the generator a little longer.

We dry camp just about all the time.  I have a generator though, and, when I can use them, solar panels.  We're gone most of the day usually, but we use 12v and 120v relatively intensely in the morning and at night, and we never have an issue with battery power.  Maybe I run my generator more than you want to run yours though.  Where I usually camp there are quiet hours when the generator is not allowed.  For dispersed camping, you can run your generator all night if you want.

I get your frustration with generators starting with 12v, inverting to 120v, and then if you want to charge your battery, you need to convert that back to 12v, but for what it's worth, my Yamaha 2400iSCH has a 12v outlet for directly charging the battery.   I've never used it, because, well, why bother, and because the wires from the generator to the battery are so small, it would be more efficient to use jumper cables from the vehicle.

So... I could be totally misunderstanding you, but my thoughts boil down to, it seems like you may be contemplating worst case scenarios, whereas for most practical matters you may be overthinking things.

TT


-------------
2010 176
FJ Cruiser


Posted By: Olddawgsrule
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2017 at 10:54am
Thank you for the response and I was probably typing/thinking too fast.. LOL

The trailer battery controller I really don't know for certain what it can or can not do. That concerns me. Also it's mean for 'general usage. I doubt very much it has mode selection for proper charging.

When I refer to Genny it's short for generator. Yes, the Yamaha I'm looking at also has a DC connect and cables to charge direct, but only at 6amps and not controlled.

The stand-alone charger is meant just to charge and properly. Auto select for current and maintenance modes. I doubt the trailer one is setup like this. I just don't know quite yet..

My intent is to dry camp as much as possible. So with determined power usage (my power audit) I see up to 3.5 days before re-charge. 3 days of rain, well, I have to do something. Since I will be buying a generator (1000w), an additional $60 for a very good charger/controller seems well worth the money spent and peace of mind.

Again MHO and my intents.




-------------
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJduGeZNFgtptH67leItRFQ - Byways no Highways
2017 Tacoma
http://tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=72408 - Truck Camper Build
2004 F150 My Overlander


Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2017 at 11:11am
One question to ask is whether the 12V outlet on the generator is actually 12V, or something more intended to actually "charge" batteries. You need quite a bit more than 12V to actually charge a 12V battery. The absorption voltage for a lead acid battery is going to be "about" 14.6 - 14.8 volts. The float voltage for a 12V battery is going to be "about" 13.5 volts.

So if that 12V output is not going to between 13.5 and 14.6 volts, it won't really charge a battery.

This is why you need an actual charger that can deal with this.


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bp
2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River
2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost


Posted By: john in idaho
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2017 at 11:11am
A 1000w generator will mainly only charge batteries.  It won't run anything bigger than an electric drill.  A 2000 w will run the microwave and TV.  Any thing bigger is too heavy to carry around.


Posted By: WillThrill
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2017 at 11:21am
Originally posted by Olddawgsrule

When I refer to Genny it's short for generator. Yes, the Yamaha I'm looking at also has a DC connect and cables to charge direct, but only at 6amps and not controlled.

Yes, the DC charging feature of inverter generators, at least all of those I've seen, is close to worthless.  An uncontrolled charge of your battery is far from optimal.  And if you ever really needed to do this, you can just connect your RV battery to your vehicle's battery with jumper cables and let the running vehicle charging your RV battery.  I've been forced to do this in the past, and it gets the job done.

Originally posted by Olddawgsrule

The stand-alone charger is meant just to charge and properly. Auto select for current and maintenance modes. I doubt the trailer one is setup like this. I just don't know quite yet.

The Pod's onboard converter/charger is indeed a 3 stage computer controlled charger.  I cannot recall what the maximum amperage is (it's here in the forum somewhere, perhaps in the 'manual for R-Pod' thread), but I think it's around 15 amps, which is fine for one or two batteries.

Originally posted by Olddawgsrule

My intent is to dry camp as much as possible. So with determined power usage (my power audit) I see up to 3.5 days before re-charge. 3 days of rain, well, I have to do something. Since I will be buying a generator (1000w), an additional $60 for a very good charger/controller seems well worth the money spent and peace of mind.

Having a backup charger is certainly not a bad idea if you're boondocking as it wouldn't be pricey or take up much weight or space.  And if your battery ever gets significantly discharged, you can actually run both the onboard charger and an additional charger at the same time, at least until the chargers move from bulk charging to absorption charging (when the batteries reach ~80% state-of-charge).

There is another option for charging batteries.  Most people focus on generators and solar panels, but another very viable option is to use a solar charge controller in conjunction with your tow vehicle.  When a vehicle is idling, the voltage is high enough to 'activate' a 12 volt solar charge controller, and it can then charge your batteries just as though the input power was coming from solar panels.  An electrical engineer I know showed me this trick, and it works perfectly.  In fact, you can hard wire the vehicle's battery to the charge controller and then wire that directly into your RV batteries; the controller will only charge when the vehicle is running (without the alternator running, the voltage is too low to activate the charge controller), and it will charge the batteries as a 3 stage charger should.  The electrical engineer had this separate up for an emergency battery bank comprised of golf cart batteries in the toolbox of his pickup truck (he also had inverters, 12 volt sockets, a 21' set of jumper cables, extension cords, and a spare inverter and 120 volt charger).

Being able to invest as little as $20 in a charge controller and a bit of wire to charge the RV battery from a car is, IMHO, very worthwhile and may be a better investment for your money than an $800 inverter generator (that's what the 1kW Yamaha and Honda models go for), especially since a 1kW generator will not run your microwave or air conditioner.


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"Not all those who wander are lost." Tolkien

2014 Hood River 177
2005 GMC Envoy XL


Posted By: Olddawgsrule
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2017 at 11:34am
Again thank you Will for the response. More food for thought!

Heh.. Don't have nor intend to have either the Micro or AC. Not how 'we' roll when camping. LOL 


-------------
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJduGeZNFgtptH67leItRFQ - Byways no Highways
2017 Tacoma
http://tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=72408 - Truck Camper Build
2004 F150 My Overlander


Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2017 at 12:12pm
Originally posted by WillThrill

The Pod's onboard converter/charger is indeed a 3 stage computer controlled charger.  I cannot recall what the maximum amperage is (it's here in the forum somewhere, perhaps in the 'manual for R-Pod' thread), but I think it's around 15 amps, which is fine for one or two batteries.
The WFCO charger is a 55 amp charger. Pretty hefty by many standards.

http://wfcoelectronics.com/product/wf-8955-55-amp/ - http://wfcoelectronics.com/product/wf-8955-55-amp/


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bp
2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River
2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost


Posted By: Olddawgsrule
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2017 at 1:47pm
Followed your link and read a bit. Thank you for the link and the response!

55 amp is output. Very nice! 
 It is a 3 stage charger, but, what they don't state is amperage or wattage for charge (well, as far as I can see anyway..). Seems like a decent charger, just wish they'd state wattage on charge.

Really would like to know if it's a 10-15amp charger. I'd be real happy if it was!






-------------
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJduGeZNFgtptH67leItRFQ - Byways no Highways
2017 Tacoma
http://tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=72408 - Truck Camper Build
2004 F150 My Overlander


Posted By: Tars Tarkas
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2017 at 2:51pm
Originally posted by GlueGuy

One question to ask is whether the 12V outlet on the generator is actually 12V, or something more intended to actually "charge" batteries. You need quite a bit more than 12V to actually charge a 12V battery. The absorption voltage for a lead acid battery is going to be "about" 14.6 - 14.8 volts. The float voltage for a 12V battery is going to be "about" 13.5 volts.

So if that 12V output is not going to between 13.5 and 14.6 volts, it won't really charge a battery.

This is why you need an actual charger that can deal with this.


It's meant for charging batteries; not as a source for 12v power.  But I've never cared to use it so I haven't actually checked the voltage.  And as far as I know, it's not controlled.  Whatever it does, I think it does it all the time.

TT


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2010 176
FJ Cruiser


Posted By: Olddawgsrule
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2017 at 3:02pm
Originally posted by Tars Tarkas

Originally posted by GlueGuy

One question to ask is whether the 12V outlet on the generator is actually 12V, or something more intended to actually "charge" batteries. You need quite a bit more than 12V to actually charge a 12V battery. The absorption voltage for a lead acid battery is going to be "about" 14.6 - 14.8 volts. The float voltage for a 12V battery is going to be "about" 13.5 volts.

So if that 12V output is not going to between 13.5 and 14.6 volts, it won't really charge a battery.

This is why you need an actual charger that can deal with this.


It's meant for charging batteries; not as a source for 12v power.  But I've never cared to use it so I haven't actually checked the voltage.  And as far as I know, it's not controlled.  Whatever it does, I think it does it all the time.

TT

What I have learned, subject to interpretation, 6amp charge with no stages or control. 
Now, that's bad for general charging, but for the 'beef-up' charge.. not a bad thing if you know what you're doing.
  
There is is theory of 'over-charge' reaching 15.5v (read on 6v systems) that obviously extends the Ah without hurting the Batteries. The claim is to use a 'constant' charge (which the generator would do) for no longer than 2hrs (or reaching 15.5v). Remember, to all that try this, this is a theory being processed. 
So far sounds good but... Only still a theory.. 

Pushing beyond chargeable rates could reduce cycles of charge..



-------------
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJduGeZNFgtptH67leItRFQ - Byways no Highways
2017 Tacoma
http://tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=72408 - Truck Camper Build
2004 F150 My Overlander


Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2017 at 4:32pm
Multi-stage chargers will start at bulk charge, where they are usually current limited. Once the battery voltage reaches the absorption level (in the 14.6 to 14.8 volt range, the charger should switch to voltage limited, and monitor the current being absorbed by the battery. Some chargers will just set a timer and run at the absorption voltage for a couple of hours. Smarter chargers will watch the current until it reaches a pre-programmed level (to indicate the battery is "full".

Once that level has been reached, the charger should switch to float level, which is going to be in the 13.5 volt area.

You can calculate the power of the WFCO charger by multiplying the maximum current (55 amps), by the peak voltage at the end of the bulk cycle (~~ 14.7 volts). That is about 800 watts.


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bp
2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River
2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost


Posted By: WillThrill
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2017 at 9:25pm
Originally posted by GlueGuy

You can calculate the power of the WFCO charger by multiplying the maximum current (55 amps), by the peak voltage at the end of the bulk cycle (~~ 14.7 volts). That is about 800 watts.

On top of that, as soon as the charger gets AC power, it will also power all of the 12 volt circuits in the Pod, adding to the power draw.

A big reason why so many people are unable to run their air conditioner with a 2kW generator is because their charger is often drawing significant power to charge their battery and run all of the 12 volt items.


-------------
"Not all those who wander are lost." Tolkien

2014 Hood River 177
2005 GMC Envoy XL


Posted By: henryv
Date Posted: 08 Dec 2017 at 6:30am
I sometimes use my camper for extended living, and/or traveling. I want AC when I need it. I have two Honda generators. Problem solved.

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Posted By: Olddawgsrule
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2021 at 6:04am
Edit: deleted quote from a spammer

Well, I'm so far past this now (this was back in 2017) and never did buy a 'geeny', I've had no need. Between the solar I added and the DC/DC charging (from the TV). Good power management, solid quality batteries have done it for us!



-------------
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJduGeZNFgtptH67leItRFQ - Byways no Highways
2017 Tacoma
http://tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=72408 - Truck Camper Build
2004 F150 My Overlander


Posted By: jato
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2021 at 6:51am
Originally posted by Olddawgsrule

Well, I'm so far past this now (this was back in 2017) and never did buy a 'geeny', I've had no need. Between the solar I added and the DC/DC charging (from the TV). Good power management, solid quality batteries have done it for us!


Am curious as to what style batteries you ended up purchasing.  I ask because one of my 12v deep cycle batteries is no longer holding a good charge, in fact after giving it a 24 hour 2 amp trickle charge and letting it rest for 6 hours before taking a reading it only reads 12.49 v.  Then again it will be 11 years old come this December.  It is a group size 24 Interstate.  The other one (same name and size) is 4 months newer and still performs very nicely for this boondocker.

I am seriously looking at the Trojan T-1275 (12v).  Weight is 85 lbs and comes with a 150 amp hour rating.  They are not as popular in the golf cart industry as they once were, most 48 volt systems have gone to the 8v batteries, which obviously won't work for our application on the 177.  I am not worried about tongue weight as I added a couple used rotors to the front so I can keep my tongue weight over 300 lbs and that is with a full FW tank, which is located behind the axle.


-------------
God's pod
'11 model 177
'17 Ford F-150 4WD 3.5 Ecoboost
Jim and Diane by beautiful Torch Lake
"...and you will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free."


Posted By: Olddawgsrule
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2021 at 7:02am
With the rPod I ran dual 6v's from Batteries R Us (Duracell). I've heard just as good reports on the Interstate 6v's (Costco?). At 230 (+-) amp hour each. I ran these as low as 60% giving me ~140amps of usage before getting serious for recharge. Since we don't stay put for more than 3 days, this worked out very well. 

Now with the Overlander, I'm running a 90ah lithium and using a DC/DC system from the trucks alternator. I do have 120w of solar as a backup for any extended stay.

I'm a big fan of lithium, just not a big fan of the 'overpriced' batteries/setups out there. 

Safe Travels


-------------
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJduGeZNFgtptH67leItRFQ - Byways no Highways
2017 Tacoma
http://tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=72408 - Truck Camper Build
2004 F150 My Overlander


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2021 at 12:02pm
Jato, just a comment, take it or leave it.

I don't think you will like the deep cycle golf cart batteries. They will need more charging over the winter (higher self discharge rates) and won't last anywhere near as long as what youre replacing (higher internal corrosion rates).

I recommend the deep cycle golf cart batteries for most folks who aren't paying close attention to their battery state of charge because they tolerate low SOC well. But you watch your batteries like a hawk and don't have that problem.

So my recommendation is to stay with what has been working well for you for the past 10 years. Just my $0.02.

-------------
1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: jato
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2021 at 2:08pm
OG.  Question time. How low can I take a golf cart battery down before 'hurting it.'  Seems like a dumb question coming from a golf course superintendent who has worked a lot with electric golf carts but honestly all we ever did on the electric side was to keep corrosion off cables, keep electrolyte levels up, keep batteries and surrounds CLEAN, and charge after so many rounds of golf.  In addition there were times where a cart or two would get missed, get sent out, and then run out of juice to the point it was unable to move at all and would have to be towed in.

My other reason for moving in this direction is weight.  With the additional nearly 40# tongue weight I can now rid myself of carrying some old brake rotors in the front stow area freeing up valuable storage space under my table seating area. 

I was looking for discharge rates on the Trojan website but didn't find what I was looking for.  How much do I lose per week and I suppose temp enters into that equation as well.  It has been rather simple for the 12v deep cycle Interstates: 24-36 hours at 2 amps first week in November, let sit on the concrete floor in an unheated garage and 'hibernate,'  the following late April or early May repeat the charge cycle that was done in November and then re-install thereafter. 

Would I be looking at a monthly or maybe every 2 months doing a trickle charge?  I would monitor things weekly anyway but figure you probably already know 'the numbers.' Thanks


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God's pod
'11 model 177
'17 Ford F-150 4WD 3.5 Ecoboost
Jim and Diane by beautiful Torch Lake
"...and you will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free."


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2021 at 3:38pm
I get the idea of using heavier batteries to increase tongue weight.


Good questions.

I'll refer you to Trojan's maintenance instructions for self discharge and frequency of recharge. They're saying 4-6 week intervals but it might be longer for you because of your cold storage conditions. Google "Trojan battery users guide" and download the PDF.

For cycle life vs depth of discharge take a look at the curve in the attachment from Northern AZ wind and Sun. This is generic but should be ok for pretty much any GC deep cycle battery

Bear in mind that just because you shallow cycle a GC battery doesn't mean you'll actually get thousands of cycles out of it as the curve indicates. That's because it is running down it's clock on shelf/corrosion life at the same time as it's running down it's cycle life. Whichever runs out first, that's the end of life. In other words, I doubt you'll get more than about 5 years of life out of GC batteries even if you don't cycle them at all, and probably not even that long. It's all really a trade off between cycle and shelf life.

https://www.solar-electric.com/learning-center/deep-cycle-battery-faq.html/ - cycle life



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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: jato
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2021 at 5:02pm
Thanks.  I find this interesting in that in the north we figure 4 years for a set of deep cycle batteries for electric carts, they get used roughly 7 -8 months a year while the same batteries will last for 6 years in Florida and they get used 12 months a year!


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God's pod
'11 model 177
'17 Ford F-150 4WD 3.5 Ecoboost
Jim and Diane by beautiful Torch Lake
"...and you will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free."


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 22 Sep 2021 at 1:12am
It's well understood that heat increases internal corrosion and reduces battery shelf life. And as you say they are getting more cycles annually in FL. So the GC batteries should last longer in MI.

Their effective capacity is reduced by cold though, because the chemical reactions slow down and the battery internal resistance goes up. So
their voltage will drop off faster and it will appear the the battery needs to be replaced. But that effect is reversible. Warm them up and you should get the lost capacity back.

So it is likely that you are replacing them prematurely, in order to have fresh batteries with enough effective capacity in cooler weather to get through the day. You might want to try keeping some and seeing how they do in the hotter months in summer, or take them to FL for the winter.



-------------
1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: jato
Date Posted: 22 Sep 2021 at 7:13am
So maybe instead of storing it on a concrete floor in an unheated garage where temps here often get 0 or less it should be stored in the basement of my house on a concrete floor where temp is more moderate - 52-54 degrees?


-------------
God's pod
'11 model 177
'17 Ford F-150 4WD 3.5 Ecoboost
Jim and Diane by beautiful Torch Lake
"...and you will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free."


Posted By: john in idaho
Date Posted: 22 Sep 2021 at 8:04am
yes


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 22 Sep 2021 at 11:06pm
I'd say no. The lower the storage temp the less internal corrosion. Just don't freeze the battery, which won't happen if you keep it charged. If youve gotten 10 years out of your existing batteries keeping them stored on the floor then the proof is in the pudding (electrolyte) so to speak.

What I think seems to confuse ppl is the difference between storage and use. If you were using the batteries I'd say keep them warmer, so they have more available capacity. But if youre just storing them then you dont care about that, you just want the lowest possible corrosion rates.

-------------
1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: Olddawgsrule
Date Posted: 23 Sep 2021 at 7:02am
OG I agree to an extent with you as my batteries stayed outside through the winter here in the Nor'east. I'm a believer that batteries are meant to be used, not stored so I disconnect the batteries during the winter and setup a low draw to keep them working (led light). This meant charging once a month. 

Now being on lithium, I bring them inside and use them as a UPS as we lose power during the winter. 


-------------
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJduGeZNFgtptH67leItRFQ - Byways no Highways
2017 Tacoma
http://tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=72408 - Truck Camper Build
2004 F150 My Overlander


Posted By: jato
Date Posted: 23 Sep 2021 at 11:40am
Thanks OG, I appreciate your wisdom and advice.


-------------
God's pod
'11 model 177
'17 Ford F-150 4WD 3.5 Ecoboost
Jim and Diane by beautiful Torch Lake
"...and you will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free."



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