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CPAP help, new

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Topic: CPAP help, new
Posted By: NAP1947
Subject: CPAP help, new
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2017 at 10:19am
we hope to close on an RP179 this week.
We both use CPAP units that draw 13A at 12 volts, the quoted Power Consumption is 70W typical.
I figure this to be 13A times a typical 8 hour night is 104 Ah, therefore 208 for the 2 units.
The battery that is provided is a Group 27 providing 92 amp hours with 195 minutes reserve.
Assuming I understand what I have read this battery, even 2 will not run the CPAPs.
2-6 volt golf cart batteries appear to be able to do the job but at a cost of almost 800 CDN (including a battery box) plus putting my tongue weight up to about 350 lbs, even using a WDH this causes me concern.
Seems I would be better to invest in the quietest 2000 watt inverter generator I can find rather than spend the $$ on the batteries plus I get the benefit of running other electrics (although not the a/c).

I would really appreciate some expert advice from knowledgeable folks who are using CPAP units, especially in dry camp situations, before we close our deal.

Thanks, Norm

Hope I put this in the right place.



Replies:
Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2017 at 10:30am
Something is not right about your numbers. 13 amps @ 12 volts is 156 watts. Is that a maximum or surge value? It also sounds like a humongous load. I'm inclined to go with your second figure, which is 70 watts (which would be 5.8 amps at 12 volts).

Then simplify your calculations by using watts for everything.

70 watts * 2 * 8 hours = 1120 watt-hours.

The battery you mentioned (group 27, 92 AH (is it 12 volts?)) will provide 1104 watt-hours to complete discharge. You can't use that value, as discharge below 50%. It's only going to provide ~~ 550 watt-hours before it will start to be damaged.

So you're going to need more than twice that power, and that is only going to accommodate the CPAP, and nothing else.

I'm thinking there must be more efficient CPAP machines. That power consumption seems excessive.
 


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bp
2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River
2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost


Posted By: Tars Tarkas
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2017 at 11:05am
A generator can be a great addition, but the main thing about generators and camping is that, maybe depending on what kind of camping you do, a whole lot of campgrounds have quiet hours when running a generator is prohibited.  Some have generator hours that are even more restrictive. 

If you go with a generator, consider getting one with at least 2400 watts.  That should run your air conditioner OR the microwave (not both at the same time.)

TT


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2010 176
FJ Cruiser


Posted By: NAP1947
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2017 at 11:21am
Thank you both, I used the numbers off the CPAP power source specs and readily admit I am not an expert (maybe enough to be dangerous, but old age is making me cautious).
Anyway, you confirmed my gut feel that batteries, even golf cart are not going to safely run these units.
The units are a few years old and I am sure new ones are more efficient but new are not in the budget.

It is good to know there are now restrictions on generator use as we have experienced the noise and fumes in our tent trailer days.  

However, I do need to pursue that option.  Seems like a small 1200 amp unit would run the CPAPs and be the quietest, but I need to understand the noise issue better.  The CPAPs would be more important than the A/C or microwave.

We are planning a few long trips and I am sure we will run into sites and locations without power where we need another source.  I expect our usual stopping places will be camp grounds with power available.

I will look further at generators and that will probably generate more questions but for now I will accept the single 12 volt battery the dealer provides.

Cheers


Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2017 at 12:28pm
There most probably are others on the list that need to run a CPAP. There have got to be units that draw a lot less power. I'm thinking if you can get one that runs on an amp or two that you might have more options. Probably be more quiet as well.

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bp
2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River
2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost


Posted By: Keith-N-Dar
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2017 at 12:34pm
FWIW I think you mean 1200W not 1200A.  If you are in a campground then you will be able to recharge your batteries with a generator but I haven't seen one in quite a while that will let you run even the quietest genset at night.

There are a few CPAP folks here who can tell you what they did to make them work.  Not having used one I can't comment, but I am sure you will get a solution or two when those folks check in.


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Keith-N-Dar
Boris & Betty (Boston Terriers)
2011 R-Pod 177
2010 Ford F-150


Posted By: furpod
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2017 at 4:59pm
CPAP's have a couple large power draws that can affect them. Most importantly, turn the heater and vaporizer functions off, that will reduce the load by about 60-70%.

Dual GC2's are the best option for your needs. I don't want to bother with the conversion rates, but boxes can be bought for $12 each here, and decent GC2's can be picked up for around $90 each. You need one $5 battery cable to link them. So $220 or so here. It isn't rocket science and you don't need to pay a RV tech to install them.

Also, 1200 AMPS will run most of your street. You need 1000 or so WATTS.

Going to dual GC2's, from a single Group 27, will raise your tw by about 30lbs. We ran dual GC2's, dual propane tanks, and a power tongue jack, and our tw was around 340lbs.


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Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2017 at 6:49pm
+1 on the dual GC2 batteries. I use a CPAP machine. I installed 12V outlets so I could run it directly (Respironics System One). I use the humidifier at home but when I am in the R-Pod, I put water in the tank but set it to "0" to save power. That way, I have passive humidification from the air passing over the water but I save power. I have gone multiple nights with the CPAP with the furnace also running.

I think the power draw mentioned above is the maximum use. Mine has 12V 6.67A on the label and to use with either a 60W or 80W power supply. The 80W is for use with a heated hose, which I don't have. Doing the math on the label figures, the maximum power draw is 80.04 Watts. Most of that power is used to heat the water in the humidifier. Turn the humidifier off, and the power draw is much less, but there is no label to tell how much of that power draw is for the humidifier and how much for the main unit. The best I can find out by searching is that without the humidifier, the CPAP unit will draw approximately 1.8A, depending on pressure. It will draw less when you exhale. Let's say 2A per unit. That would be 4A/hour to run the two CPAP machines without the humidifiers. If you go with the GC2 batteries, you should not have any problems powering them at night. Then you could use a generator during daytime hours to charge the batteries.

If you look at my mods, you will see my batteries. I got the 215 AH Duracell batteries at Batteries plus Bulbs. You can get a discount if you order online and pick up in your nearest store. They do have a military discount.


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StephenH
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,...

http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods
Former RPod 179
Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS


Posted By: NAP1947
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2017 at 9:04pm
As you all realize I am no electric expert and typing skills are not great either.
Thank you for the advice, I did not realize that we could turn off the CPAP heaters, in fact we do not even need to use the tank and being that I have read humidity can be a problem in the Pod perhaps that might meet our needs.
I will go with the single 12 volt or get the dealer to not provide a battery at all and then get golf cart batteries and case in the US.
Assuming your calculations are better than mine, I believe it is worth going the battery route, that is my first choice and if we find the need we could consider a generator at a later date.
Cheers


Posted By: furpod
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2017 at 5:42am
Originally posted by NAP1947

As you all realize I am no electric expert and typing skills are not great either.
Thank you for the advice, I did not realize that we could turn off the CPAP heaters, in fact we do not even need to use the tank and being that I have read humidity can be a problem in the Pod perhaps that might meet our needs.
I will go with the single 12 volt or get the dealer to not provide a battery at all and then get golf cart batteries and case in the US.
Assuming your calculations are better than mine, I believe it is worth going the battery route, that is my first choice and if we find the need we could consider a generator at a later date.
Cheers



Here is a bit of rub.. you can't "tow without a battery installed. It's what powers the emergency breakaway for the braking system. ANY 12v battery that works, will do. But you have to have one installed and functional, to tow.


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Posted By: NAP1947
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2017 at 6:17am
Furpod, shows how much I have to learn, I will see if they will sell it without the battery and take the one out of our MG to pick it up.
Thanks


Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2017 at 1:59pm
What I did was purchase the two 6V batteries plus the cable needed to connect them together and took them with me when I went to pick up our 179. Because I did not take the 12V battery, the dealer did give me a credit which I used in the store to purchase some of the accessories we needed.

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StephenH
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,...

http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods
Former RPod 179
Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS


Posted By: NAP1947
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2017 at 8:14pm
Stephen, thanks for your informative responses.
We are in Canada and hope to close this week, we plan to store at the dealer until April.
I will p/u Duracells at Batteries plus Bulbs from their outlet on Glenwood Ave in Raleigh as it is only a couple miles from our daughters home.
I did some digging into our ResMed units and there is a humidifier off setting, in addition we can use the main unit without the humidifier attached which should really help the draw.  From what we read with night time humidity in the R-Pod with 2 people sleeping we should not need the extra moisture.
Experience will tell but I feel much better about the dual golf cart batteries than any other option.
Cheers


Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2017 at 10:52am
It's funny. We went out on a hike yesterday, and because we were traveling to an area where we don't often go, we turned on the local news/weather/traffic station while going there. Coincidentally, they were advertising a Transcend mini-CPAP, and promoting the low power/DC operation.

It got me to wondering, and it appears that this is a new market segment for people that need to travel with a CPAP. In the little bit that I looked around this morning, I found several different makers of mini-CPAP machines; and many of them operate on DC power from a cigarette lighter plug and/or a small (separate) battery pack. In addition, many of them operate at less than 30 dbA (meaning really quiet).

Several of the ones that I looked at consume less than 20 watts; which would be ~~ 1.7 amps at 12 volts. It seems one of these would be an ideal solution for someone looking to boondock with their CPAP. These are some that I've found:
  • Transcend Auto
  • Z1 Auto
  • Dreamstation Auto
  • ResMed AirMini


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bp
2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River
2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost


Posted By: TheBum
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2017 at 12:02pm
I also have a Respironics System One with dual GC2 batteries, except that mine are 230Ah. The AC power supply is rated at 65W, so I figure I could run my CPAP for 21 hours (115Ah * 12V = 1380WA / 65W) with the humidifier on if that's the only load on the batteries, so the batteries will easily handle a single night of the CPAP with humidifier and all other loads.


Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2017 at 12:51pm
Originally posted by TheBum

I also have a Respironics System One with dual GC2 batteries, except that mine are 230Ah. The AC power supply is rated at 65W, so I figure I could run my CPAP for 21 hours (115Ah * 12V = 1380WA / 65W) with the humidifier on if that's the only load on the batteries, so the batteries will easily handle a single night of the CPAP with humidifier and all other loads.
Using two of those batteries (230 ah @ 6V), each battery has a total of 1380 WH, for a total of 2760 WH to full depletion. Assuming they are wet batteries, they can safely be depleted to ~~ 50%, for a total of 1380 WH. If they are AGM batteries, they could be depleted (typically) to ~~ 75% depletion, so that would give you ~~ 2070 WH.

My estimate for the wet batteries would be ~~ 1380/65 = 21 hours (what you figured)
My estimate for AGM batteries would be ~~ 2070/65 = 31 hours

Of course, that's assuming that nothing else is drawing from your batteries (unlikely).

If you were using a mini-CPAP that was running at ~~ 20 watts would get 69 hours or 103 hours respectively.


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bp
2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River
2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost


Posted By: NAP1947
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2017 at 4:46pm
We have been watching the arrival of the mini/portable units.
When It is time for new ones we will definitely consider them.
Until then the dual GC batteries should do us fine.


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Susan and Norm
2016 Venza, V6 factory tow
2018 RP179



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