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Tars Tarkas View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Your thoughts? Part Trois
    Posted: 09 Nov 2018 at 7:28pm
I think market pressure is the only thing that's going to cause the changes you all are talking about.  And I don't see that happening as long as FR is selling about as many rPods as they can.  We all pay lip service to to quality concerns but enough of us keep buying. 

It's probably going to be market forces that change the equation, and that may come through some manufacturer(s) eventually offering quality at a competitive price. 

I want quality as much as anyone.  My Pod has had some issues but none that I'd pay thousands of dollars more to avoid.  Maybe I would, I don't know, but if I think I might have to put a strap under the black tank or even replace the converter, probably not.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 2018 at 9:04pm
Fred (lostagain) and David make some very good points and counterpoints in this discussion. Yet Tars Tarkas, and something that lostagain also said in his posts nailed it and makes sense. That in the end sadly it will only be market forces that make FR change. When FR starts to see profits drop because consumers take their hard earned dollars else where they will be forced to change or the R-Pod will die plain and simple. I'm sure you have all seen this in many different industries and I've seen this even in the RV industry. I'd hate to see the R-Pod and its concept die but lostagain is absolutely right that unless FR adopts a QC attitude they will see their profits slip until its not variable to manufacture the R-Pod. I also agree that it seems to often in the RV industry the sales and marketing team control the show which to an extent is dictated by the boom and bust cycles of this industry. Yet, those companies in this industry that have succeeded long term have adopted much of the quality attitude and process that lostagain points out.

To make this really simple for anyone to understand it's either FR up's it's "game" and continually strives towards a quality commitment on their R-Pod. Or some other manufacture will come into the market and clean their clock to the point there will be no R-Pod model manufactured and sold. Doubt me, just look a Jayco, Starcraft, and all these other manufactures who are jumping into the lightweight camper trailer game and tell me they wouldn't just love to bury FR and the R-Pod. Sooner or later as Tar Tarkas say's there always someone circling the water the R-Pod is swimming in and just waiting to take a big bite! It's either adopt and continually strive towards quality or the sales and marketing team will all be looking for a job!

David I remember and was aghast when car loans went to three and then OMG four year loans and I thought are you crazy! LOL!

Fred your totally onto it and I have no explanation as to why FR hasn't standardized into a modular system with the wiring and plumbing systems in the campers they build. I'm not sure any or which RV manufactures do but it seems like a such a simple win, win, idea for the manufacture in profits and consumer in quality. But hey what do anyone of us here know? Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 2018 at 9:58pm
+1

Just like in the auto and many other industries it will be the market that drives the changes.

Sadly, FR would save actual $ as well has have more satisfied customers if they just took it upon themselves to change their Quality system but as we've said, it takes a seismic shift in management culture and that usually doesn't come without some significant pain from the market and competitors forcing it. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 2018 at 10:16pm
Years ago, I worked for Uniflite (no longer in existence) making cabin cruisers. It was a long process. The hulls were laid up of fiberglass, stringers were added, and the inside was painted. Then it was pulled out of the mold and placed in a cradle. The carpenters would then start fitting bulkheads in the hull. Large pieces like engines  were lowered in and installed. Then a molded fiberglass deck was lowered into place. These all had to be fastened into place by a person (me) going around them and fiberglassing them into place so they would be held firmly and not move. If you think the R-Pod is a rolling earthquake, add to that the pounding of moving on water at high speeds. Then a deck which was molded separately was lowered over the hull and fastened into place with pop rivets and then we had to glass it in place to seal. Initially, we had pretty easy access as some bulkheads were not placed until the deck was fiberglassed in.

This all changed when they hired some "experts" who wanted to make it more efficient by building modules that they could drop in. Once they started doing that, quality went downhill as no matter how much they kept trying to tweak the modules, they never did fit quite right and sometimes, I was trying to put fiberglass over three and four inch wide gaps where before, things fit pretty tightly to the hull. In addition, by having the modules made, there was extremely limited access to some places and the ventilation was terrible. The fumes burned my eyes and I was trying to crawl through small holes to stretch and put fiberglass where it needed to be.

Wiring was no easier for being done up ahead of time. Wires wound up being in the way of construction and instead of saving time, it seemed to take so much longer to get anything done. What was supposed to increase standardization and quality ended up doing neither. Uniflite got bought out by ChrisCraft and then eventually disappeared. The point of this story is that modular systems don't always mean an improvement in quality.

Quality needs to be improved, and by having a dedicated plant, this should be easier to achieve. Changing materials (Azdel, for example) will make for a better product. The R-Pods that are being built now have changed materials (aluminum double steps instead of steel single steps, power awnings as an option, etc. I do believe Forest River intends to compete and survive.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2018 at 5:10am
Originally posted by StephenH

Years ago, I worked for Uniflite (no longer in existence) making cabin cruisers. It was a long process. The hulls were laid up of fiberglass, stringers were added, and the inside was painted. Then it was pulled out of the mold and placed in a cradle. The carpenters would then start fitting bulkheads in the hull. Large pieces like enginesĀ  were lowered in and installed. Then a molded fiberglass deck was lowered into place. These all had to be fastened into place by a person (me) going around them and fiberglassing them into place so they would be held firmly and not move. If you think the R-Pod is a rolling earthquake, add to that the pounding of moving on water at high speeds. Then a deck which was molded separately was lowered over the hull and fastened into place with pop rivets and then we had to glass it in place to seal. Initially, we had pretty easy access as some bulkheads were not placed until the deck was fiberglassed in.
This all changed when they hired some "experts" who wanted to make it more efficient by building modules that they could drop in. Once they started doing that, quality went downhill as no matter how much they kept trying to tweak the modules, they never did fit quite right and sometimes, I was trying to put fiberglass over three and four inch wide gaps where before, things fit pretty tightly to the hull. In addition, by having the modules made, there was extremely limited access to some places and the ventilation was terrible. The fumes burned my eyes and I was trying to crawl through small holes to stretch and put fiberglass where it needed to be.
Wiring was no easier for being done up ahead of time. Wires wound up being in the way of construction and instead of saving time, it seemed to take so much longer to get anything done. What was supposed to increase standardization and quality ended up doing neither. Uniflite got bought out by ChrisCraft and then eventually disappeared. The point of this story is that modular systems don't always mean an improvement in quality.
Quality needs to be improved, and by having a dedicated plant, this should be easier to achieve. Changing materials (Azdel, for example) will make for a better product. The R-Pods that are being built now have changed materials (aluminum double steps instead of steel single steps, power awnings as an option, etc. I do believe Forest River intends to compete and survive.




I think I'll relinquish my role of "pretend defense person of the manufacturers" to you and Tars. I think you would a better job.

The comments made are good but, I'm not sure that processes that work well in other industries would work well in the RV industry. It is kind of a different animal.

As mentioned, if FR is dedicating a facility to only Pods, that tells me that they selling well/no anticipation of slowing down. If I were "King" of FR, I would not be eager to make radical changes, in the situation.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2018 at 8:21am
FR can't sit on its laurels though. There has to be continual improvement. I am glad that there is competition. It will make the products better as manufacturers, not just FR, will need to improve to compete effectively.

I have been to the old factory that was shared with Surveyor. I saw how the R-Pods are built. To a certain extent, there is modular construction in that cabinets are made and then set in place. Then the walls are added and finally the roof is installed. There are only so many places through which wires and pipes (both water and gas) can be run.

The biggest thing is attention to detail. There should never be a check valve installed backwards. There should never be pipe joints not properly tightened. There should never be wiring installed incorrectly. There should be cleaning done as the work progresses so there is not piles of trash to rattle out as the trailer goes down the road.

FR needs to insist that the suppliers also clean up their work. There should not be debris in the fresh water tank (plastic shavings that plug up check valves and faucets). Converters should not be failing. Refrigerators should be reliable. If there is an issue, FR needs to insist that parts suppliers improve their products. After all, it is FR that gets the blame when these parts fail, even if it is not FR's fault.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2018 at 8:38am
Originally posted by StephenH

FR can't sit on its laurels though. There has to be continual improvement. I am glad that there is competition.

After all, it is FR that gets the blame when these parts fail, even if it is not FR's fault.



Agreed on both counts. I suspect they are very closely monitoring the "clones".

Something I think we are forgetting is that the Rpod was/is the game changer. Like the import cars of old, it was/is the smaller, lighter, affordable camper that we all were wanting. It is the one that the competition is copying and trying to chase down. Could they be better - perhaps some. That said, most everything on the planet could stand some improvement...except me!   

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2018 at 11:49am
Let's not confuse Quality processes with manufacturing processes. Manufacturing processes vary from product to product, for sure. I personally am not at all convinced that modular construction would be a good fit for RV manufacturing. 

But one thing for sure, Tps, lean and six sigma Quality processes help reduce cost and improve quality in every industry where they have been adopted. They are not manufacturing or industry specific processes. This has been demonstrated time and again. Otherwise all these diverse companies wouldn't be doing it. Even entities like nonprofit homeless aid organizations have benefitted. 

So the RV industry is not "special" or somehow "exempt" from benefitting from better Quality processes.  There are far to many defects reported in newly delivered RVs to think that the RV manufacturers have their houses in order. There is no doubt in my mind that the RV industry could benefit  from making these changes, and is at risk of disruption if it doesn't.  Just my $0.02


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