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Frames and axels

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lostagain View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote lostagain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Frames and axels
    Posted: 24 Nov 2022 at 7:11am
The axle problem seems to be very curious.  Presumably, Lippert sells chassis and axles to trailer manufacturers based on the performance and dimension specifications provided by the trailer manufacturer.  To our more knowledgable board members:  Is this a correct assumption, or does Lippert (and other chassis manufactures) build them as a more fungible product that the trailer builder just picks from a list of chassis and axles that are manufactured generically and sold based on weight capacity, length, and width?

If the axle they provide does not meet the dimensional and performance specifications either specified by the trailer builder or as listed in the Lippert specifications, then ultimately they bear responsibility for the failure.  If the chassis and axle are built to the trailer builder's specifications and it fails when the trailer is used in a manner that is reasonably foreseeable for a vacation trailer, then it is the trailer manufacturer's responsibility if a failure occurs within the warranty period.  If the use of the trailer is unreasonable or constitutes an abuse, then the warranty is void.

The real question are what constitutes reasonable and foreseeable use, and what is a "subtantial" defect.  [The pre-June, 30,2021, warranty language is pretty much irrelevant as the warranty period has already expired, except to the extent the Lippert axle warranty may apply.  The Lippert frame warranty, according to their web site, is 1 year.]  Under the current "warranty," Forrest River is not responsible for much.  https://www.forestriverinc.com/downloads/TowableWarranty2021.pdf  If the defect is not "substantial," then it's not covered. "Substantial Defects are those defects which prevent the RV from performing its intended use for short term recreational camping." [Emphasis added.] Dealer representations about what is covered or not covered by the warranty are specifically disowned by FR.  The warranty only applies to the first retail sale of the trailer by an authorized dealer.  It is not transferable.  If you purchase a trailer that is not the current "model year" then the warranty is 90 days, not 1 year.  Also, little stuff, such as door or window adjustments, are only covered for 90 days.  Specifically excluded from the warranty:  "The chassis including without limitation, any mechanical parts or systems of the chassis, frame, axles, tires, tubes, batteries, gauges, or optional generators."  [Emphasis added.]  Also excluded are road hazard damage and damage from "off road" use.  So if you hit a pothole on I-20 in Louisiana, which I am told there are some huge ones, tough luck.  The warranty limitations can vary from state to state, but in most states where there is little in the way of consumer protection law, you're screwed unless FR or the dealer feels like being nice to you.

The warranty overrides the Uniform Commercial Code protections in most states, so the implied warranty of fitness for the intended use doesn't help you.  A failure of the product which damages the product leaves you with essentially no remedy, except as specifically stated in the warranty.  If there is a design defect in the trailer, such an axle or chassis failure, that leads to an accident, then different rules apply and the manufacturer is responsible for compensation for the injury, but not consequential damages to the trailer.

If you have a warranty claim, the best you can hope for is that FR wants you to buy another trailer from them someday and might be nice to you.  If they deny your warranty claim, even if you are right and they are giving you the proverbial middle finger, there is really not much you can do.  Of course, you can sue them, but the attorneys fees would very quickly exceed the value of the trailer.  Also, you have to go to Indiana to sue.  They chose the forum in their warranty and you can count on Indiana law not being very favorable to consumers with travel trailer warranty disputes.

Speaking for myself, I would never, ever, buy a new FR travel trailer product again.  The warranty is illusory and it isn't worth the extra money you'd spend on a new trailer.  If I were to be in the travel trailer market again, I would buy a used one that has been used enough to reveal any structural or other defects.  If you can't fully inspect the used trailer for defects yourself, then it's worth hiring an independent trailer mechanic to do a thorough pre-purchase inspection.  Also, buying a trailer that is out of warranty and your not being in "privity" [having a contractual relationship] with FR means that the limitations for legal remedies, such as having to sue in Indiana, would not apply in the event someone got hurt using the trailer.  As for fixing or replacing the trailer itself, you are on your own.

Never leave footprints behind.
Fred & Maria Kearney
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offgrid View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote offgrid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2022 at 4:20am
Since the dealer is responsible for the lift kit he will be  your ally, he wont want FR to blame the lift. He probably got the lift kit from FR or Lippert anyhow. FR needs happy dealers so I don't think you need to worry about the lift part of it. Good luck!
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Scuba Steve View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Scuba Steve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2022 at 9:19pm
Thank you for the response. 

The knowledge you have to offer is appreciated. The Axel lifts was installed by the dealer I purchased the trailer from. I hope someone covers the damage. The trailers being 2 years old. 

I will keep you informed as to how FR chooses to handle this.
Steve
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David and Danette View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote David and Danette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2022 at 9:58am
  Thank you offgrid for your explanation, I think you could have been an engineering professor! I think I will be cautious in driving to avoid big bumps driving fast and be very careful not to overload our camper. I did take it to a scale once when loaded to get an idea where our camper weight was loaded.
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offgrid View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote offgrid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2022 at 3:16am
There is DOT oversight in the trailer load rating system, just not formal engineering standards for what safety factors need to be assumed when designing the trailer axle and structure  

As I understand it the DOT requires the manufacturer to post a max trailer weight (dry plus cargo) not to exceed the axle weight rating plus tongue weight (or lowest tongue weight if there is a range). The DOT  doesn't mandate what constitutes a reasonable axle or frame weight rating as far as I can tell. 

When I looked into the safety factors (expressed as g forces) engineers use when designing vehicle structures and suspensions I found numbers in the range of 2.5-3 g's for heavy trucks and more like 3-3.5 gs for lighter passenger vehicles, which get thrown around more. I could find general ranges only, the actual numbers used by each vehicle manufacturer are proprietary. 

When I analysed the axle and frame of my 179 I came up with yield points (loads there you'd expect the steel structural members to begin to fail in bending) at around 2gs or a bit less on a fully loaded trailer.

 2gs isnt normal but also isn't all that uncommon when hitting a pothole or curb, for example. You'd  notice it when it happened, but you might also think it wasn't that serious an event.  If you want you can download  an app on your smartphone and use it to record g forces as youre diving around. 

So it isn't very surprising to me that some folks end up with bent franes and axles, while most folks can go through their whole trailer ownership and not have any problems. You likely have to be pretty heavily loaded and then also hit a pothole or curb fairly hard, but perhaps not so hard that you'd expect to have bent something.

In contrast, 2.5 gs on a heavy truck or 3  on a passenger vehicle would be really quite an extreme event. As the driver you would probably expect to have broken something under those conditions. 

 I think what's going on is since there isn't a formal  standard the RV industry, in the interest of light weight and low price the RV engineers are selecting structural members that provide that 2g ish safely factor, just high enough to prevent a flood of complaints. That's good engineering actually, no engineer anywhere, not even at NASA, will design something to survive all possible conditions, he or she would be quickly looking for alternative employment. 

Engineers without external regulatory requirements design stuff with the safety factors the company has established internally. They also all sign NDAs as a condition of employment so they can't talk about it. They do know what they're doing for sure  the engineering involved isn't rocket science by any means. 

So because of the limited DOT oversight, to be able to call out the manufacturers on this issue you would need to show that a reasonable engineer would not select structural members with such low factors of safety. That would be quite difficult because the designs arent wildly out of expectations.

 So what to do as an owner? I think there are 5 choices, listed below in rough order of effectiveness at preventing damage. YMMV.

Buy a motorized RV built on a truck chassis by a global vehicle manufacturer. You're more likely to get something designed to the 2.5 plus g range that way  

Buy a trailer from a high end long established coachbuilder with a reputation to protect.

Buy a cheap trailer and reinforce it yourself. Drive carefully. 

Buy a cheap trailer, keep it lightly loaded, and be very diligent about curbs and potholes.

Buy a cheap trailer, load it up and go banging down bad Forest Service roads at 50 mph. At the end of each season  rather than winterize, drop it off at the landfill and buy another one in the spring.







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Post Options Post Options   Quote Scuba Steve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2022 at 7:04pm
I guess without much oversight the frame manufacturers can put whatever axel they like.
Steve
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David and Danette View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote David and Danette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2022 at 6:57pm
  Camper specifications are strange to me they make no sense. Our Gulf Stream 19BFD Vista Cruiser Has a dry weight of 3,410 lbs. hitch weight 480 lbs. Net caring capacity 1,550 lbs and it has a 4,000 lb axle that is on the label of the axle. If you do the math it makes no sense and when I called the manufacturer they said the wheel hubs can carry more weight. I was concerned about it but I never found anything on the internet of the Vista Cruiser's or Vintage Cruiser's having an axle failure so i just hope and trust the axle never breaks.
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2012 Vibe 6503 (2014-2019)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Scuba Steve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2022 at 4:00pm
From your words to you know whos ear.

Thanks for the well worded and engineering point in which you looked at it. I never thought of the r pod as a cheap way of camping as being cheaply manufactured.
Steve
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gpokluda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2022 at 2:45pm
Agreed, OG. Our 6 year old 179 with 60K+ miles is still in great shape, but with longer trips for us on the horizon, we knew we would be pushing our luck with the Rpod. This is why we decided to order an Escape 5.0TA late last summer. This week will be our final outing with the 179 for our traditional Thanksgiving camping trip to the warm, southern deserts of New Mexico. The day after Christmas, we leave for Chilliwack, B.C. to pickup the 5.0. 
As a short haul camper, you can't beat the Rpod for it small size and towability by just about anything with a motor. It is a great choice for the entry level RVer.  As a long haul traveler, however, we felt we were rolling the dice on any trip over 300 miles. 
Gpokluda
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offgrid View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote offgrid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2022 at 1:48am
To clarify, the 195 has a 4400 lb rated axle. That was what was put on it to begin with and that's what you'll have when you get it back.  IOW your axle and gross trailer weight ratings wont change. What FR is really saying is that Lippert's original axle wasn't really capable of handling 4400 lbs, and now they will (hopefully) be replacing it with one that is.

However, from the way you are describing the damage I don't believe that the failure was in the axle itself. The damage was quite obviously a frame failure. That could well be related to the design of the frame to axle attachment, but I doubt that the axle itself is to blame, or it would be bent. That typically shows up either as one side of the trailer being lower than the other, or one both wheels being de-cambered (wheel tilted inward at the top). 

I suppose it could be that the torsion axle is weak and bottoming out, which in turn is applying a high stress the frame. But that would still be indicative of a marginal frame design. Since Lippert manufactures both the frame and the axle it doesn't really matter, they hold the warranty responsibility either way. 

I just wish FR was more forthcoming regarding these issues, they have a  history not only of these types of problems but also of responding to them in this way. They obviously have their customer service folks trained to release the  minimum information possible and are treating each incident on a case by case basis, doubtless to avoid  broader recalls and lawsuits.

If you search the history on this forum you'll find many threads on axle, frame, and axle to frame attachment problems and failures. There are no formal engineering standards for design of these systems in travel trailers. Ive analysed the design for my (former) 179 and it would be generous to call it  marginal. I reinforced mine as have several other members here. FRs responses have been quite varied as well, ranging from too bad it's your problem to yessir we'll fix it for you right away, sir. 

BTW I don't think any of the major budget trailer manufacturers are going to be any different, this seems to be general industry practice. For this reason I won't own another budget travel trailer. My next RV, if I get another one, will be a class B or C unit built on a motor vehicle chassis. Those are generally  built to higher design standards than travel trailers. And I'll get one built by a high quality low volume  coachbuilder using a single or 2 piece fiberglass shell, in an attempt to minimize the other two major complaints folks have with their RVs (poor workmanship and water leaks). Those high quality coaches are really spendy so I will buy used, I'd rather have a well cared for high quality used RV than a brand shiny new piece of junk. Of course no matter what  RVs are high maintenance  

Sorry if my this offends anyone but I've now owned 6 RVs, all types, looked at many others, and spoken with many owners. That is my opinion of the the RV industry at this point. Rant over....
1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
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