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Renewable propane |
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Pod People 
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Joined: 22 Sep 2011 Location: Chapel Hill,NC Online Status: Offline Posts: 1067 |
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 Topic: Renewable propanePosted: 30 Oct 2022 at 10:22am |
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We have been in our house since we built it in1975. The insulation at that time was not great, but adequate. We have gone through several heating system configurations since the beginning--all electric heat pumps, hydronic system, propane furnace and wood stove has been used. We currently have a good combination that serves us well. We live in a rural area with no natural gas available. So, we use a combination of electric, propane and wood for our heating needs. We have a Trane high efficiency dual fuel heat pump system (electric/propane) that is augmented by a jacketed woodstove with blower. Being in central NC, we use the heat pump(electric) most of the time. Once the outside temps get to around 40-42 degrees, the propane furnace kicks in. We have five acres of woods, so we augment the heat with our woodstove. In the depths of winter, we will use the woodstove almost every day during the daytime and it will usually die out around 3-4am. We use about 2 cords per winter that we cut and split. Our combined electric/propane bills are reasonable for our square footage. However, as we both are approaching our middle 70’s, our wood usage will probably be declining in the future. We have a small tractor to move the logs, a hydraulic splitter for the wood and 5 acres of trees for wood supply. The only issue is labor and energy in this case. So we have to assume that our actual cash heating costs will be increasing as we age. Travel often and safe Vann |
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Vann & Laura 2015 RPod 179 
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StephenH
podders Helping podders - pHp
Joined: 29 Nov 2015 Location: Wake Forest, NC Online Status: Offline Posts: 6289 |
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Posted: 30 Oct 2022 at 8:51am |
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Part of the problem is the frost level. I saw two types. One used a run that was bigger, buried so that the ground loop was wide and shallow. The other was deep and the loops were installed vertically. Those would likely work in the really cold climates. The need to dig deep for a horizontal loop would likely not be too much more than drilling for a vertical loop.
What makes the air source so much less attractive is that when the heat just isn't there to extract, pure resistance electric elements are used. This is why my heating bills were very high. I admit the newer, high efficiency ones would be better and not use resistance heat as much, but that is not to say that there are not situations where they would not be used. Also, the air source ones need to run a defrost cycle periodically to make sure the outside coil does not get an ice build-up. If one lives in an area where there is a lot of snow, then one would need to have a way to keep the outside unit sheltered from snow build-up so the snow does not block the airflow. Ground loops don't have those problems. In some areas, solar modules would work great. In others, subject to many days of overcast skies, solar might not provide much assistance. I grew up in western New York. We had plenty of cold, cloudy, snowy (lake effect snow belt) days where solar would not have contributed much. If these days were followed by sunny ones, then one would have had to go and clear the snow off the panels for them to do much good. I would say that if the situation is such that air source would work, then go for it. If not, then ground source is a great option. It is also good for those scorcher days when the air temperature is hot since the heat pump would have a much cooler place to dump the heat from the house. That is the other half of the heating/cooling problem which has not been addressed so far in this topic. Another option is a water-jacket wood burning furnace. It could be teamed with different backup sources for heating water to circulate in a hydronic heating system (radiators) or a water to air heat exchanger for a forced air system. I know people who have had such systems. Some use indoor water jacket wood burning stoves. Others have a system that is outdoors and so keeps the indoor air clean and free from smoke and the possibility of CO poisoning. |
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StephenH
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS |
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David and Danette
podders Helping podders - pHp
Joined: 24 Nov 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1215 |
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Posted: 30 Oct 2022 at 7:12am |
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I think when we replace our Carrier package heat pump we will replace it with the better design Carrier package heat pump the Performance 15 50VR it has a more efficient heat pump I think like what offgrid had mentioned with a two stage compressor. By the past posts wood is a popular option for heat and watching the national news it mentioned someone installing a wood burning stove to replace an oil burning furnace to save money from the high price of oil.
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2018 Vista Cruiser 19BFD (2018-
2012 Vibe 6503 (2014-2019) 2009 r-pod 171 (2009-2014) Middle Tn 2014 Ram 1500 Quad cab |
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offgrid
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Joined: 23 Jul 2018 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5290 |
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Posted: 29 Oct 2022 at 5:14am |
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That company is trying to sell geothermal so they're not comparing themselves with up to date air source heat pump technology.
That being said, of course a geothermal heat pump will always be more efficient when it's cold, because the ground heat source will be warmer than the air. But would that difference in efficiency ever pay back the much higher installation cost? Its cheaper most places just to add some solar modules to make up the difference in electricity usage.
In a very cold climate where even a new high performance air source heat pump won't work then sure a homeowner should consider ground source. But in those climates ground source gets very expensive because the frost depth and ground temps require a very large deep geothermal loop or it can freeze up since it is continuously extracting heat from the ground all winter. I'd like to be wrong but I don't really see a cost effective alternative to combustion in those climates. Keep those wood stoves going! |
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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
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StephenH
podders Helping podders - pHp
Joined: 29 Nov 2015 Location: Wake Forest, NC Online Status: Offline Posts: 6289 |
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Posted: 28 Oct 2022 at 4:30pm |
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https://evolvedthermal.com/ground-source-vs-air-source-heat-pump/
Ground loop will still be more efficient than air source.
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StephenH
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS |
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offgrid
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Joined: 23 Jul 2018 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5290 |
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Posted: 28 Oct 2022 at 4:00pm |
That is no longer true. The old style heat pumps quit being effective around the low to mid thirties. Below that all they do is blow cool air so the resistive heat strips have to operate and that is where your costs skyrocket. The new cold temp temp heat pumps are much improved, and work well down to around 15 degrees or even lower.The Japanese have led the way in this tech, with their inverter based minisplits. Look at the Mitsubishi hyper heat for example. That is the way to go nowadays. It will be significantly cheaper and cleaner than gas heat going forward and as more and more cities ban new gas installations it will become a bad investment to have one of those systems. It also makes ground loop heat pumps less attractive financially because the benefit of a ground loop heat pump is that the ground heat source is warmer than the air so the heat pump is both more effective and efficient. But if a similar benefit can be achieved without resisting to digging up your yard by using a better air to air heat pump why do it? If you look at the btu content of wood on a per pound basis rather than a per cord basis it really doesn't matter what kind of wood you burn as long as it's seasoned properly. Oven dry hardwood holds about 8600 btu/lb. Resinous softwoods are slightly higher at around 9000 btu/lb. Basically, a pound of cellulose is cellulose. Ppl like to burn hardwood because it's denser so if they're buying a cord they get more btus. But if you're harvesting your own wood it doesnt really matter. So I just burn whatever I have available. If it's wood and it's dry I burn it. If it's green I don't even try. You're just wasting most of the chemical energy in the wood vaporizing water.
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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
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furpod
Moderator Group - pHp 
Joined: 25 Jul 2011 Location: Central KY Online Status: Offline Posts: 6128 |
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Posted: 27 Oct 2022 at 11:22am |
That's a good link, and covers it pretty well.. In our case, actual measurements can be a bit tricky, because we don't buck our rounds to 16 inches, but 22. That's how long of a split I can reliably load into the firebox, east/west. And that gets me my best bTu load, for longer burns, less loading. Until it gets below about 10F outside, we can usually go on 2 loads a day, but extra windy days or highs in the low teens to single digits will mean 3 loads a day. Thankfully our winters are mild enough that this only happens a few times a year, at most. And our high efficiency heat pump allows us to not be bankrupt if we let it run some, so I usually don't build a fire until it's below 40F outside..
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StephenH
podders Helping podders - pHp
Joined: 29 Nov 2015 Location: Wake Forest, NC Online Status: Offline Posts: 6289 |
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Posted: 27 Oct 2022 at 10:07am |
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Here is more information that will define the various types of cords:
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StephenH
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS |
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jato
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Joined: 23 Feb 2012 Location: Kewadin, MI Online Status: Offline Posts: 3227 |
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Posted: 27 Oct 2022 at 8:32am |
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"Cord" means differently in different parts of the country. In many areas the standard cord is the given which is 4' wide by 4' high x 8' long. In northern Michigan many refer to a "FACE" cord (and is sold this way) as 16" wide x 4' high x 8' long so in the case I gave above where I state we go through 12 cords during any given winter, using the standard cord as measurement I actually burn 4 cord/winter.
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God's pod
'11 model 177 '17 Ford F-150 4WD 3.5 Ecoboost Jim and Diane by beautiful Torch Lake "...and you will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free." |
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StephenH
podders Helping podders - pHp
Joined: 29 Nov 2015 Location: Wake Forest, NC Online Status: Offline Posts: 6289 |
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Posted: 26 Oct 2022 at 9:39pm |
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My sister and her husband installed a ground loop heat pump. It took some doing in the rocky soil of western NY. One part of their yard was solid rock so they had to route around that. It is more efficient, but I agree. There is nothing to see. A fireplace or wood stove with window is much more pleasant to look at.
We have a fireplace, but prefer to use the gas pack furnace/AC for heating and cooling. We used to live in a house with a heat pump. Our electric bills in winter were sky-high and that was keeping the heat turned down. We had a couple of oil-filled electric heaters to use at night in the bedroom since that was a more even heat than the heat pump could provide. I don't want to live in a house with a heat pump for heat again. Natural gas heat is much more affordable.
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StephenH
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS |
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