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Changing times

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offgrid View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote offgrid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Changing times
    Posted: 13 Jan 2022 at 5:30am
Originally posted by StephenH

Until I can recharge in the same time it takes to refill, an EV will not be practical for when we are towing and traveling out to see our daughters. It takes 5 days to get there already since my wife does not drive and I do all the driving. Adding charging time onto that would mean another day or two to get there. Also one thing not mentioned is that most charging stations are set up for nose-in charging. Unhitching to charge and then re-hitching to continue the trip is not a viable option.


I think "not practical" is the incorrect term. What you are saying is "unless I can add range as fast as I can with gasoline then I don't want an EV". That's ok as a personal choice but it doesnt make EVs impractical if it takes a little longer. It's not going to add another day or two to a 5 day trip.

Gas pumps run at about 8 gallons per minute so with a 15 mpg rig with a 20 gallon tank you can add range at the rate or about 240 miles in 2 minutes or about 120 miles a minute while keeping a 20% (60 mile) reserve. Those were about the numbers I got towing my 179 with my Highlander at 60 mph.

That will never happen in an EV, but you can get close enough I think.

A gallon of gasoline contains 33.7 kwh of energy. A good modern ICE is about 30% efficient fuel to wheels (just the way heat engines-all heat engines- are) so 1 gallon of gas can deliver 10kwh of energy and 15 mpg is the equivalent of 670 watt hours per mile, assuming no increase in rig efficiency with an EV, which is probably wrong but it's conservative.

The new crop of EVs with 800V battery architecture and 200kwh batteries can charge at around 250kw for about 60% of battery capacity (to 80% while leaving the same 20%/60 mile reserve) above which they taper the charge rate. With a 200kwh battery (equivalent to a 20 gallon fuel tank at 10 kwh per gallon) you can get a 120kwh recharge in just under 30 minutes. 120kwh divided by 670 wh per mile is 180 miles of range towing, or about 6 miles a minute compared to 120 miles per minute with gas. Not even close? Well maybe it is.

Look at it as 180 miles in 30 minutes. Good enough? For me yes. I would start out fully charged with 200kwh, drive 4 hours or 240 miles (I like to start early), just like in a gasser. Then I would stop and recharge for 30 minutes while making and eating breakfast and taking a break Then I would drive another 3 hours or 180 miles, and recharge for another 30 minutes while making and eating lunch and taking another break. Then another 3 hours/180 miles, total 600 miles. I'm done for the day, just as I would be driving a gasser. Stop and recharge overnight at a campground with 50A receptacles.

I am normally in much less if a hurry so I would just do the one breakfast fuel stop and go 420 miles, stop at lunch for the day, get a campsite, also just as I do with the gasser. Easy peasey.

I agree on the pull through chargers, there are only a few now but that will change, it's not a technical hurdle. Those have been solved.

And when I consider that I go on long trips no more than 10% at most of the miles I drive my vehicle I'm waaay ahead with an EV I can charge at home with no time spent going to a fuel station ever, and refueling costs about 1/3 of gasoline. Not to mention all the other ev benefits like very low maintenance, high performance, better stability, ability to maintain power to your house in an emergency, low or no (with residential solar) greenhouse gas emissions, etc.

BTW if I want to go to visit west coast friends and relatives in a hurry I'll fly my airplane. I'll get there in an easy 2 days at about 200 mph with 3 or 4 refuelings burning about 120 gallons (roughly equivalent to about 25 mpg driving). Now that's fun traveling, and no airport lines, sardine can seating, and hassles.



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Post Options Post Options   Quote lostagain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2022 at 6:57am
It looks like electric vehicles are going to eventually take the place of internal combustion engine vehicles.  That is almost a given until someone comes up with a better idea.  But, it's going to take a long time for electric vehicles to become practical for many vehicle uses.  The infrastructure for generating the electricity and distributing it in a non-CO2 producing way is in its infancy and has a long way to go before it will be truly functional.

According to the US Energy Information Agency, 66.6% of our electricity is from fossil fuel.  To that one must add another 1.4% of biomass that is burned and generates CO2 as a byproduct, so we really have 68% of our electricity coming from burning stuff.  Until we have electricity mostly coming from non-CO2 producing sources, we're really just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.  

We also have to deal with the environmental damage of battery production.  Lithium extraction has very significant environmental challenges, in addition to the fact that it is a finite mineral and may not be available in sufficient quantities to supply meet demand for batteries.  Recycling lithium is a good idea but it urgently needs to be implemented or that lithium will be forever lost in landfills.  In the long run, lithium battery storage is a bandaid on on the electron storage problem; another form of storage is needed.  

None of these issues should stop us from urgently moving toward the elimination of fossil fuels, but we'll have to contend with human nature to take the easy way out, and the easy way doesn't always work out.  Fossil fuel is easy and the interests promoting its use are powerful.  It is going to be a big challenge to get people to switch to developing and using other sources of energy and by the time we get people to do it, it may be well past the tipping point.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote StephenH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2022 at 9:26am
I had hoped that fuel cells would become a more viable option. The down side is hydrogen storage. I have read of some storage techniques for storing hydrogen on a disc that can be easily changed and the depleted one can be refilled. However, what was not mentioned is how much hydrogen could be stored. Cryogenic storage or high-pressure storage is not practical as driving a rolling Dewar flask is probably unsafe (what happens in a crash when the Dewar flask is punctured or otherwise compromised) or the weight of a very high pressure tank that also has risks if a crash happens). Also, the hydrogen would be generated by natural gas reforming or electrolysis. The one is still using fossil fuels and the second takes energy that has to be generated, again using fossil fuels.

Battery technology needs to move away from Lithium but there is as of now, no alternative that has developed enough to take its place. There are some prospects, but they are not ready for the market yet.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote lostagain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2022 at 10:26am
Once again, we have to keep in mind that "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch."

Another issue in these changing times is the consequence of not adequately funding the state and federal forest and park services to maintain and develop new camping camping facilities.  Existing campgrounds are often over used and far too crowded, making the camping experience less pleasant and damaging the environment that we all want to enjoy.  Campgrounds need better maintenance and we need more of them.  So many date back to old WPA projects and they're just pain worn out.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote StephenH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2022 at 1:10pm
+1
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Post Options Post Options   Quote David and Danette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2022 at 5:23pm
  I think a middle ground producing less pollution camping would be smaller lighter weight campers and smaller tow vehicles or just buy a tent. I agree with Federal campgrounds in need of repair we just left one that several structures and boardwalks were closed to the public because they were unsafe to use. The daily camping rates just went up $7.00 a night hopefully that extra money will go to repairs and maintaining the campgrounds. It's sad I just could only imagine what the campground looked like 40 years ago in that it would have been a more enjoyable place to camp. We were camping in the Ocala National Forest in central Florida the oldest National Park east of the Mississippi River the campgrounds were built back in the thirties approaching a hundred years old.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote StephenH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2022 at 8:44pm
For some of us, a tent is no longer viable. We gave up tent camping when I fell on my wife trying to get up and put a bruise on her leg that lasted a really long time. I can't argue though that these behemoth RVs are a bit much. If one wants to have all the comforts of home, then stay home. The RP179 is the right size for the two of us.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rpod-Couple Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2022 at 10:19pm
An EV for around town is fine. But not all of us are retired and can afford to wait 30+ minutes to fill up every 90 minutes. And that assumes you don’t have to wait for someone else at the fast charger who just plugged in and has 30 minutes to go. The Ford Lightning is only going to get about 150 miles towing a TT and you don’t want to drive it more than 70% charge (105 miles) to prolonged battery life. The other problem is the fast chargers aren’t always where you need them. You may have to stop early or drive out of the way to get to one. 

I know of EV panel trucks that some days got stuck because they ran into big head winds and couldn’t finish their routes and had to be towed back to their depot.

I really, really want a Ford Lightning but range anxiety towing my TT is a real concern.

My BIG dream is mini-nuclear plant to fit in a pickup truck so you can drive for years, power, heat, and cool your TT. The ultimate boondocking TV. 😉


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Post Options Post Options   Quote lostagain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2022 at 6:29am
Though I am not opposed to the responsible development and construction of nuclear power plants, I am a hesitant to put such a potentially poisonous system into the hands of individuals who may or may not comply with maintenance and safety guidelines.  In addition, what happens in a crash if radioactive material is spilled onto the roadway?  

We have taken the step to substitute electric powered vehicles, now we have to urgently develop adequate infrastructure for rapid charging and for better battery technology.  Lithium is a temporary fix and is not sustainable.  Heck, who knows maybe we'll figure out how to make charging pads like those charging pads for cell phones, where you just set the phone on top of the little pad thingy and viola, your phone is charged in no time.  

But we still have to deal with the adequate funding of state and federal camping facilities.  The fad back in the 70's was to cut all funding for that sort of expenditure and raise user fees to the point where they'd pay for all of the facilities expenses and any new development that might come along.  Unfortunately, that philosophy persists and we are looking at campground fees that are prohibitive for many, especially those on fixed incomes.

I saw in the internet, so it must be true, that we will soon develop a perpetual motion machine to provide energy for all our needs, so our troubles will soon be over.  Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Quote offgrid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2022 at 7:26am
I would not expect expect another technology to replace Lithium batteries anytime soon. That is magical thinking. Time-frames in energy technology changes are my h much longer than in IT tech. They are not comparable. The typical time duration of core energy tech is a century or two. It took well over 100 years for coal/steam to replace water power. And another century for oil to become dominant over coal. Cual is still around now although it's on life support. Oil has peaked and is beginning it's decline. Solar and wind have been with us well over half a century and are just now becoming dominant.

lsolar cells are basically the same as they were 50 years ago. It and wind are not at all in their infancy, they are very well understood mature technologies.

Why does energy technology take so much longer to change than in other fields? It's the scale required. Enormous investment, which won't happen unless the technology has been proven.

For this reason it is a grave mistake to simply say we need to move away from Li batteries. Instead we need to continue to optimize what we have and increase investment in it. Otherwise it just becomes another excuse to do nothing.

And you can ignore all the announcements of new battery or solar technologies. These fall into one of two categories. Startups trying to pump up their company value with pie in the sky claims or academics announcing some lab "breakthrough". Very few academics have the first clue how to efficiently manufacture anything much less how to achieve the enormous scale required to have a measurable impact on the energy economy. We can safely ignore all that stuff till you actually sée someone build a "giga scale" plant to produce it.

As for Li manufacture, it is far less damaging than oil and gas extraction. The materials can either be recycled or disposed of safely unlike lead and other battery types. The biggest problem with Li is water usage, but it's a localized problem. Nothing has zero impact, and it never will. Nuclear falls in the same category, as does hydro. Right now we need to decarbonize, that is the biggest threat. We just need to do our best for the folks bring impacted and move forward with what we can scale and implement now.




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