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Changing times

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Post Options Post Options   Quote offgrid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Changing times
    Posted: 28 Jun 2022 at 7:16am
Distributed battery storage for grid support tests are expanding. Note the compensation and opt out incentives for the storage owners.

CA grid storage test

90+ percent of grid battery storage utilizes Li batteries, driven by volume and cost Li battery reduction from EV demand. 2.8 TWH Li battery annual production capacity is expected by 2025. All other battery options will be at best a tiny fraction of that figure.

For the US grid to be essentially 100% renewable we would need about 6TWH of storage capacity by 2050. Li is the only battery technology able to deliver the kind of scale needed soon enough, to think there will be any other alternative battery technology of sufficient scale in the next decade or longer is magical thinking. Investors have already placed their bets on Li.

To fill out the picture over 90% of grid storage is pumped hydro. Unfortunately, hydro sites are limited and dams and reservoirs suffer greatly from NIMBY so are hard to get approved and built. The DOE projects grid battery storage to become dominant by around the end of the decade.

If you think it's urgent to get battery grid storage in place at scale then you should strongly support dual use of EV batteries for grid storage, otherwise the environmental impacts will be significantly worse because battery capacity will be duplicated and far more batteries will be needed.    


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Post Options Post Options   Quote GlueGuy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 2022 at 10:13am
I don't disagree that currently the best storage option is Li. However, it is also my personal belief that the long-term solution will be a much more distributed storage and generation scheme. At present, most utilities are heavily invested in selling power, and not their distribution system. It is the primary reason that solar grid-tie is such a big issue all over the country. If they can change their mind set, and start charging for distribution in some fashion, they might be much more receptive to distributed storage and generation.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote offgrid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 2022 at 1:33pm
Having spent much of my career in solar fighting the utility companies' antiquated mindset, I completely agree. The traditional utilities are stuck with the idea that their revenue must come from power generation and so have usually viewed distributed renewables as competition and resisted them.

But that is different now in the open energy markets, PJM being the largest example. In those markets transmission, distribution and production of electricity have been separated, so it is very possible for an aggregator (for example Tesla) to sign up and sell distributed power and/or grid support services. That is likely going to be where the innovations happen first.

I also agree that while grid connected Li batteries can be deployed either distributed or centralized, it makes sense to distribute them. That way they can perform both a grid support function as well as provide their owners with autonomous operation when there are grid failures.

My point here is that if those batteries are also serving as EV storage, we have minimized the economic and environment impacts of deploying storage. The storage is needed so it's going to happen one way or another.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote offgrid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2022 at 5:49pm
Here's the answer we've been looking for.

Grid energy storage using elevators in skyscrapers, with robots storing wet sand ballast in the corridors. And the robots will be programmed to get out of the elevators if ppl need to use them.

Skyscraper energy storage.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote lostagain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2022 at 6:09am
Someone should talk to some elevator engineers about this.  The proponents don't seem to be clear on how elevators work, not to mention the complexities of moving their wet sand.  I assume this is satire.

For a good overview of new energy storage technology, there is a great series on YouTube, which I mentioned before, called Just Have a Think, that reviews emerging technologies for energy capture and storage.  https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=just+have+a+think
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Post Options Post Options   Quote offgrid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2022 at 7:26am
not satire, apparently. someone spent quite a lot of time looking at this.

Here is a link to the researchers published study

0

Lift energy storage

My thought is that post Covid everyone wants to work from home anyway. So why not just vacate the top half of all those high rise office buildings and use half of each building and half the elevators for energy storage? That still leaves half of each building for human use, let the robots and sand have the rest so nobody's feet need to be run over.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote lostagain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2022 at 8:27am
Like I say, the author proposing this approach best talk to some elevator engineers.  He's not quite clear on how elevators utilize energy.  The heavy lifting for elevators is in the down direction because the counterweights weigh 1.6 times the weight of the cabin, with a cargo/passenger load evening out the balance of the weight.  It also fails to account for the wear and tear, with the need for increased maintenance that would result from such heavy loads.  And we haven't even touched on the energy consumed by the robots moving back and forth with heavy loads of the wet sand, which will inevitably get spilled into the elevator are leading to extraordinarily expensive repairs.  This is a very complex "solution" that can be achieved by so many other simple means.  It is a violation of the KISS rule in spades.  When a quality elevator company, such as Otis, Schindler, Kone, Mitsubishi, or Thyssen buys into such a "solution."  It will have some credibility.  Until then, it's pretty much pie in the sky.

Here is a little more realistic approach:  schindler-solar-elevator-powered-exclusively-by-sunlight-1765
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Post Options Post Options   Quote offgrid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2022 at 4:55pm
From what you describe as the energy profile of conventional cable based counterweighted elevators, it sounds like the skyscraper storage concept would work much better with the cable-less Thyssen maglev elevator technology the article refers to. The only problem I guess is it costs 5x what a normal elevator costs. But it can go sideways as well as up and down.   Willy Wonka anyone?

As for a solar elevator, it's going to be better to just grid tie the solar instead. That way none of the energy is wasted when the batteries get full and elevator usage is low, it can get used elsewhere in the building or by other grid customers.
Same problem happens with solar powered EVs, better to put the solar on the roof and grid tie it rather than on the car itself.   

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Post Options Post Options   Quote lostagain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2022 at 5:37pm
The Thyssen mag-lev system has been an unmitigated disaster.  It is phenomenally expensive to maintain, breaks more often than an R-Pod, is a true Rub Goldberg of moving parts that fails frequently.  I've been away from the elevator business for a bit, but the hourly rates for a weekend call back is about $1,500 an hour for a repair team of 2 mechanics, portal to portal.  I don't have any information on the energy consumption, but I doubt it is more efficient than a modern traction elevator with a VFVV drive ac gearless machine.  

Another thing that is being missed is the fact that the busy time for elevators is mostly during daylight hours.  So the sun doesn't shine very well when they want to spill the sand in the doorway.  At night is the time when the elevators in most places are quiet.  Not much direct solar is available at 2 am. 

Robots are another thing that is complication.  I worked with a number of jobs where hospitals used robotic drug dispensaries.  They drove all over the hospital and rode the elevators.  It was wonderful.  At least a couple times a month, usually on weekend nights, they'd crash into the hatch doors and knock them off the tracks so they couldn't close.  Elevators don't run with open doors in ideal circumstances.  The callback for the emergency repair team was usually around $8K or $9K.  Helped pay for my friends boats and motorcycles, not to mention their very reasonable dues to IUEC Local 8. 

As for solar elevators, the left over electrons from the day's running are usually stored in batteries and used at night during times of low usage.  Code limitations also restrict mixing elevator operation with other building systems.  It may not be permitted to share the battery storage with other building systems.  Solar power for solar elevators is roof mounted.  Schindler has been one of the leaders of solar vertical transportation research.  That was one of the reasons they were one of the sponsors of the Solar Impulse project.  They learned a great deal of technical information they were able to transfer to vertical transportation systems.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote offgrid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2022 at 4:05am
I was kidding about the Thyssen Wonavator.

It's not a day/night problem, batteries do take care of that. It's a summer/winter problem. Trust me I designed these systems for a living for 40 years.

Off grid solar is never anywhere near as efficient as grid tied because of seasonal solar insolation variation. If you size the PV array for winter operation when the available insolation is low you will waste the excess energy production in summer to avoid battery overcharging. There is no way around that unless there is another place for the excess production to go, eg the grid. To do it with batteries you would need to install enough battery capacity to carry the load for smany months, which is totally cost and resource prohibitive.

This is especially true in a northern climate like Europe where ppl tend to be most interested in this kind of thing. In northern Germany there is more than a 5x difference between June and December for example.

So the Schindler solar elevator is going to appeal to architects and building owners who want to appear to be green more than they actually are green. If they really want to be green they'll install a conventional grid tied solar array and a conventional grid connected elevator system. As with Thyssen's Wonkavator, Schindler's off grid solar elevator sounds really cool but makes no practical sense.



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