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lostagain View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Your thoughts? Part Trois
    Posted: 09 Nov 2018 at 7:31am
Having worked with a major international manufacturer in high level management, I can say with certainty that it's the management that sets the tone for quality.  Offgrid is exactly right, it's not the workers who are responsible for lousy quality.  They follow the leadership of management.  If management demands high quality from its employees and enforces it, they'll get it.  The may have to fire a few recalcitrant or unqualified employees along the way, but everyone else will get the message.

Quality requires focus on detail, adequate time to complete the task, discipline for poor performance, adequate training for employees, and adequate quality materials.  These are all, each and every one, management choices.  When a company pushes production speed over quality, doesn't demand quality of its employees, uses cheap materials and poor methodology, you get the typical travel trailer in today's market.  

Indeed, it would be interesting to see someone start a company producing simple high quality trailers using the concept of the Pod and its knockoffs.  It can probably be done without losing the competitive price point in the market.  Again, offgrid is correct in pointing out that's exactly what Toyota did.  Now nearly every car manufacturer does it and we have come to expect cars to last in the hundreds of thousands of miles instead of celebrating when and if it made it to 50K.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 2018 at 9:36am
+1 to lostagain.

There are several manufacturers who are more focussed on quality (nucamp and casita come to mind), but they achieve it by running smaller operations, training and treating their employees like craftsmen, and catering to those willing to shell out the $$ for their products.  That sort of business is hard to scale. 

I don't know if anyone in high volume RV manufacturing has implemented these concepts. A quick Google search shows that Winnebago has adopted LEAN manufacturing practices or at least is attempting to, not sure if they've been successful.  

Its quite difficult for a company to change an ingrained culture, there this an enormous resistance, a lot of it is even unconscious. The auto manufacturers, most of them, had no choice. Competitors like Toyota did it first and ultimately they had to follow or die. Bankruptcy is usually a pretty good motivator for behavioral change....

i expect that part or the reason the big RV manufacturers haven't changed much is their boom bust cycle. I read somewhere that Airstream is now building 8x as many trailers as they did at the bottom of the great recession in 2009. That's about a 30% annual growth rate year on year for 9 years, hard to sustain and maintain quality at the same time.  With that kind of cyclic business it is really difficult to change people's mindsets and to innovate your processes, you're always either laying off folks or hiring anyone you can to grow as fast as possible. 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 2018 at 9:52am


I'm going to move a post or two here as, I think what is being discussed deserves more discussion (some from me).



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 2018 at 9:57am
Originally posted by lostagain


Having worked with a major international manufacturer in high level management, I can say with certainty that it's the management that sets...  They follow the leadership of management.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 2018 at 10:06am
Originally posted by offgrid

+1 to lostagain.
  
Its quite difficult for a company to change an ingrained culture, there this an enormous resistance, a lot of it is even unconscious.  


lostagain, offgrid - it sounds to me that the managers at FR face a lot of the same issues that managers (admin/moderator) of Rpod Forums do!

Since none are jumping to the defense of said managers, I'll assume that position.

My first question is - How can we achieve "quality" when nearly everyone's definition and perception of "quality" is different? It strikes of being a very vague/fuzzy/moving target. In Rpod "quality" we range everywhere from "fine as is" to "some minor tweeks" to "significant improvement/processes".

I'll probably post more later - doing chores and getting ready for lunch.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 2018 at 10:52am
David, that is a very good question. In manufacturing, there are several aspects to this. Here is a little background from a web tutorial. 

First, Quality is "meeting the requirement, expectation, and needs of the customer, being free from defects, lacks and substantial variants." So Quality encompasses both the specifications and the elimination of defects associated with meeting those specifications. 

Quaility Assurance  "is provided by organization management, it means giving a positive declaration on a product which obtains confidence for the outcome. It gives a security that the product will work without any glitches as per the expectations or requests.  QA and focuses on preventing defect. It ensures that the approaches, techniques, methods and processes are designed for the projects are implemented correctly. Quality assurance activities monitor and verify that the processes used to manage and create the deliverables have been followed and are operative." So Quality Assurance is a management responsibility.

Then there is Quality Control. "QC focuses on identifying defect. QC ensures that the approaches, techniques, methods and processes are designed in the project are following correctly. QC activities monitor and verify that the project deliverables meet the defined quality standards. Quality Control is a reactive process and is detection in nature.. It recognizes the defects. Quality Control has to complete after Quality Assurance."

So as someone mentioned earlier in the thread, we have to distinguish between whether the specifications for a product are correct or not from whether the product is being manufactured to meet those specifications without defects. 

Since it seems to be clear that there are consistently problems with things like loose wires and leaky plumbing fittings, I think we can safely say that there are problems with FR's QA process which appear as QC failures. The trailers going out the door are frequently failing to meet the product specifications. Dealers and/or owners are fixing them after the fact. I can't see there's room for much debate on that point. 

Separate from that is whether the specifications for the product are correct, ie, is the product meeting customer needs and expectations, is it fit for purpose? That is certainly part of the overall Quality process and I think FR does a better job there. With the exception of a few arguable things like the undercounter sink and 12 vs 120V TV's it seems like most of us feel our trailers are more or less fit for purpose at the price point they are sold at.

The impression I have is that FR is a sales and marketing driven company. Understandable considering the boom/bust cycles. But that can leave the engineering, manufacturing, and service sectors in the company without enough voice in the process, drowned out by the noise from S&M. An example of this is the undercounter sink. I can just visualize the management meeting with sales saying "gotta have it", marketing saying "we project xx sales increase if we have it", and engineering and manufacturing saying "yeah but...." Been in those meetings myself, got the tee shirt. 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 2018 at 1:37pm
One other thing to factor in is that now FR has a dedicated R-Pod facility. Before it was alternating R-Pod and Surveyor construction. By concentrating on the R-Pod line, it should improve consistency in construction which should lead to higher overall quality.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 2018 at 2:02pm


Next comment –

Comparisons to the automotive industry….well…..kind of/sort of. Quality was an issue. Those of us that lived through those times may remember the American product quality was absolutely awful. Cars were rusting on the dealer lots, while waiting to be sold and if you got 50K miles out of one, that was good. However, I don’t think that was the only force acting upon that industry.

Not only were new cars crappy, their ever increasing price tag was making them ever more “out of reach” for many of us with modest wages. About the longest one could finance a car “back in the day” was 3 years. The payments were just too much to handle. Gone were the days when we bought a new car every 2-3 years. The practice of “planned obsolescence” would not work in this environment.

This is just speculation on my part but, there may have been discussions between the banking and automotive industries. Automotive to banks – “If you would extend the lengths of loans, thus lowering the monthly payments, more people could buy our cars.” Banks to automotive – “If you would make vehicles that still have some value, at 4-5 years old, we might consider."   Today, I think one can get a 6-7 year vehicle loan.

With the oil shortage of the 70’s fresh in our minds, there were government and societal pressures to increase the fuel economy of vehicles. Consumers were demanding something way different than, say, a 59 Cadillac.

Then came the Chrysler bailout.   Though unthinkable before, one of the “Big 3” was down for the count. All the while, the imports (Honda, Toyota, Datsun, etc.) were supplying what we wanted – a smaller, more efficient car of reasonable quality and price.

I’ve gotten wordy so, I’ll sum up and say that I believe that change came about, not just due to (even very bad) quality. I believe there were several “forces” at work to cause the American automotive industry to change or become extinct. I don’t see the entire mass RV industry making this sort of dramatic shift due to some sawdust, an occasional broken pipe hanger, or broken converter.   
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 2018 at 3:35pm
I don't see the RV industry becoming quality focused similarly to the automotive industry because there is no competitive imperative to do so in the current market.  Many of the quality innovations of the Japanese cars were not just being more careful in the assembly, but were the results of standardizing wiring; reducing option this making parts inventories more manageable; making interchangeable parts between models; etc.

For the trailer industry, we've seen a big improvement in the structural integrity of the trailers the more they've moved to welded aluminum frames.  This could be carried over to the roof structure and some of the interior walls.  Wiring is a mess in most trailers.  The development of simple wiring harnesses would eliminate the bowl of spaghetti behind the electric distribution panel.  [In the elevator industry, for example, I've seen the control cabling go from spools and spools of individually connected wires to the controller to a plug and harness system.]  There are only so many configurations of trailers in any production line and simple wiring harnesses could be developed for each.  

The same is true for plumbing.  Simple pre-manufactured plumbing systems could be fabricated to reduce field assembly along with the probability of faulty assembly.  A careful examination of the process would yield, in my view, many opportunities for pre-fabrication and a corresponding reduction in sloppy field assembly.  

To me, it's a question of the RV manufacturer's engineers and field assembly folks analyzing the construction process and focusing on standardization of process and the elimination of weak points, such as structural staples.

Will they do it?  Not until they're forced to by a competitive market.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 2018 at 3:38pm
The auto industry was only the first. Most manufacturing industries have now adopted Tps (Toyota production system), lean and six sigma, or are at least attempting to. Winnebago is as well. The processes, procedures, and business culture are transferable and beneficial to across pretty much any manufacturing business. This is generally accepted in manufacturing nowadays, RV manufacturing seems to be a holdout.

Here are some of the top companies in the world to adopt lean. 

https://www.manufacturingglobal.com/top-10/top-10-lean-manufacturing-companies-world
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