R-pod Owners Forum Homepage

This site is free to use.
Donations benefit a non-profit Girls Softball organization

Forum Home Forum Home > R-pod Discussion Forums > I need HELP!!!
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Trailer Brake Adjustment?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Calendar   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedTrailer Brake Adjustment?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 2345>
Author
Message
offgrid View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 23 Jul 2018
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5290
Direct Link To This Post Topic: Trailer Brake Adjustment?
    Posted: 15 Oct 2018 at 5:50pm
mcarter, that is a very good point.Good troubleshooters use what works for them.

Troubleshooting is really the same thing as good experimental design. I've had some some great troubleshooters work for me the past, and the very best ones all have multiple ways to get at solving the problem at hand. Worth their weight in gold, and in my opinion, one of the things that made American science and engineering the best in the world but is now being lost with overspecialization and the separation occurring between hands on technical and scientific training. How many young engineers do you know these days who have ever rebuilt an engine? 

For me, physics rules, so all energy release winds up as waste heat in the end.  Brakes can't stop something without getting hot in the process...

The other clue I got was the buzzing. A dc electromagnet really shouldn't buzz, the current and voltage doesn't oscillate. So my theory is that it must be shorting to the brake drum momentarily. Higher current flows through it when off the drum, causes it to pull against the drum, shorting it, resulting in lower current, causing it to release, and so it goes, cycling and buzzing. We'll see...
1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold
Back to Top
mcarter View Drop Down
podders Helping podders - pHp
podders Helping podders - pHp
Avatar

Joined: 07 Apr 2016
Location: Greenbrier, TN
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3419
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2018 at 6:27pm
I'm tracking, I had great scientists work for me and some really whacky ones too. End of the day lets fix it.
Mike Carter
2015 178
" I had the right to remain silent, I just didn't have the ability."
Back to Top
GlueGuy View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 15 May 2017
Location: N. California
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2628
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2018 at 7:56pm
If you still have the magnets from the ones you swapped out, one of those may still be good? I presume they are the same left & right.
bp
2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River
2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost
Back to Top
offgrid View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 23 Jul 2018
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5290
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2018 at 4:44am
Yeah, good question GlueGuy. I was thinking about that too. I'll take a look at them today, but I had a lot of wear and heat on the old brakes so I really have my doubts about keeping any of the old parts. Of course if the new ones are such crappy quality that I only have a 50/50 chance of getting a good one...
1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold
Back to Top
offgrid View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 23 Jul 2018
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5290
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct 2018 at 5:16am
Well I had an interesting time yesterday sorting through my brake system and learning all kinds of things about electric trailer brakes that I never thought I wanted to know.

First, I did pull off and inspect my old magnets, way too worn to consider reusing. I did test them both electrically though and they are actually ok.  In the process I found that my theory that buzzing indicates a bad magnet was dead wrong. Its normal when they are connected to the brake controller, which must be putting out a pulse width modulated voltage to do its control thing. Buzzing disappears when connected directly to a 12V dc source.

Next I found that the magnetic fields generated by the magnets themselves were sometimes confusing the readings on my dc clamp on meter.  DC clamp ons use hall effect sensors which are pretty sensitive. So, I cut the wires and went back to using an old fashioned current shunt to do those measurements.

End result is that both the new magnets are likely within specs and don't exhibit ground faults. The passenger side one has about 5-7% higher resistance than the drivers side (hard to measure exactly because they heat up a lot when on and copper resistance increases with temp so the current goes down). I also have about another 2-3 percent loss in the longer wiring going over to the pass side. So overall the current through the pass side magnet is about 8-10% lower than the driver's side.   

Nest I reconnected the pass side brake, left the driver's side disconnected, and attempted to burnish/burn in the pass side brake. My thought was that I had never really been able to get the pass side heated up and burnished before because aggressive trailer braking resulted in the drivers side getting plenty hot while the pass side was barely warm. 

That seems to have improved braking action on the pass side so I reconnected both sides and did a few test stops to measured brake temps. I'm still quite a lot hotter (say 200 vs 140 degrees F) on the driver's side but its better than before. 

So my conclusion now is that the 8-10%-ish side to side magnetic force difference must have been enough to keep me from being able to properly burnish the passenger side brakes. It surprises me that 10% would make that much difference so there certainly could be something else still going on. 

Since most of the difference is in the magnets themselves not the wiring, I'm thinking just rewiring as the etrailer tech suggested won't in itself correct things. So I'm thinking of going with one of GlueGuy's suggestions and adding a dropping resistor to the drivers side circuit to see if balancing the currents between the two sides balances the braking action. 

BTW, back on the original question on this thread, the etrailer tech also told me that the p2 max braking level adjustment should be near to the high end for a travel trailer and not to expect a TT to lock up brakes when setting the controller. He said that was more for a utility or car trailer in an lightly loaded condition. 

He also said that the boost setting does not effect the max voltage output of the p2 but it does increase the output during light to medium range braking. He thought I should be at least at a boost level of b1 for my rig, and that would help a lot to keep the rear brakes of the TV from overheating on grades, and that b2 might be a better selection for long fairly shallow grades. b3 is reserved for rigs where the trailer weighs more than the TV. 




 
1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold
Back to Top
offgrid View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 23 Jul 2018
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5290
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct 2018 at 5:38am
After thinking about the magnet variation for another few minutes I think I'll try the following just for fun. GlueGuy will like it. I'll just connect the two magnets in series rather than parallel, duh. Real easy to do with the existing wires. Guaranteed to be the same current that way. Half the voltage on each magnet but I can turn up the p2 to max which would be the equivalent of about a 6-6.5 voltage setting with the two in parallel. 
1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold
Back to Top
offgrid View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 23 Jul 2018
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5290
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct 2018 at 9:09am
Well the series connected magnets test worked perfectly. 

I now get smooth even braking and drum temps are within 10-20 degrees of each other side to side even after a series of aggressive stops using the trailer brakes only. So I have to conclude that the seemingly minor 10% difference in magnet current side to side was my problem and kept me from even getting the passenger side brake burnished in originally.  

Based on what I'm getting I would happily leave the brakes connected in series permanently and call it good but the Prodigy controller doesn't recognize that the brakes are connected, the current which maxes out at about 2 amps must be below its threshold setting. I know the manual slide works as it should but I don't know if not thinking its connected messes up any of its other functions. 

So, I guess before I can call it quits on this I still have to go back and try to balance the two sides so I can put the magnets back in parallel.....
1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold
Back to Top
offgrid View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 23 Jul 2018
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5290
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct 2018 at 11:30am
Turns out that putting the Prodigy P2 in electric over hydraulic mode reduces the threshold for it thinking the brakes are connected, so I did that. Everything else on the controller seems to function and display correctly. I'm getting plenty of stopping action, at max voltage the trailer brakes stop the rig from 20 mph in about 5-6 seconds. 

Brake temp on the drivers side is still a little higher but much better than before. Likely no one would notice it at this point and I wouldn't either if I hadn't become attuned to it.   Lippert's manual suggests "reburnishing or replacing" brake linings if you have problem where things never got seated correctly, but I guess I've "reburnished" already.  

So, unless someone has another suggestion for me, I'm thinking to leave things like they are for awhile and keep an eye on it. 
1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold
Back to Top
offgrid View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 23 Jul 2018
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5290
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 2018 at 3:42pm
Just to wrap up this thread in case anyone is ever patient enough to follow it this far.

I read in some of the Lippert documentation that it could take as many as 50 hard stops to fully burnish/seat/burn in a set of new brakes. So, I temporarily disconnected the drivers side brake and did 20 stops (with cooldown in between) using the pass side only. Then I reconnected both and did a couple of stops and things seem to now be very close between the two sides.

I called tech service at the manufacturer of the Prodigy controllers who confirmed to me that there are no operational differences between the electro/hydraulic mode and the normal electric mode in their controllers. The only differences are in fault testing, mostly that the "not connected" resistance mode threshold is at a lower resistance and the inductance test is eliminated. They also confirmed that the brake buzzing is due to their PWM controller. 

So, I cleaned up and dressed down my trailer brake wiring and am at this point planning to leave my brakes in series rather than putting them back in parallel and call this fixed.

Now, back to my original question which was why my rear TV brakes are getting hotter than my front brakes. The reason is apparently because Highlanders like many other modern vehicles have a subsystem of ABS called electronic brakeforce distribution (EBD). This basically acts as an electronic version of an old school front/rear hydraulic proportioning valve, sending more brakeforce to the wheels with higher weight loading. So, initially under panic stop braking before the weight distribution shifts forward, the rear wheels can carry more brake force before lockup and they get that via the EBD system. The problem is that under light braking when towing the system apparently misinterprets the higher rear loading from the trailer as a sign that it should send more force to the rear brakes than it really ought to. Nothing to do about it I guess because the programming can't really be modified so I just have to live with more wear on the rear brakes and try to keep brake usage low on downhill grades so I don't overheat the rear brakes. At least now I can get both the trailer brakes to do some of the work which they weren't before. This also explains mcarter's observation that rear brakes sometimes wear out faster than normal when towing. 




1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold
Back to Top
GlueGuy View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 15 May 2017
Location: N. California
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2628
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 2018 at 3:58pm
Originally posted by offgrid

So, I cleaned up and dressed down my trailer brake wiring and am at this point planning to leave my brakes in series rather than putting them back in parallel and call this fixed.
The only issue I would have with this option would be if one or the other of the magnets develops an open, you would lose both brakes. I would probably rather put the junction between left & right up close to the hitch, such that you could run equal lengths of wire to each side.
bp
2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River
2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 2345>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.64
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz