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Topic ClosedShould I adjust my towing setup?

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lostagain View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Should I adjust my towing setup?
    Posted: 01 Sep 2018 at 10:18am
Offgrid raises some very valid concerns about the design and use of trailers, hitches, and receivers.  Presumably the designers of the trailers, receivers, and WHD hitches take these important stresses into account.  If not, they run the risk receiving an invitation to justify their design calculations in the presence of a jury in a product liability case.  

All of these forces are foreseeable for the designers of each component and each component designer must anticipate the use of the other's product.  Thus, they have to take the twisting and bending loads into account and adequately design for them and/or advise the users of the load limits and dangers.  In most states, product liability rules require designers to factor in not only foreseeable uses but also misuses that pose a risk of injury.  In other words, if a receiver, such as the one in the pictured Toyota Highlander that appears to have been damaged by torsional loading of a WDH, is not capable of sustaining such loads, Toyota has the duty to warn of the load limits or advise against the use of a WDH.

For example, I bought our Pod from a dealer who sold us both the trailer and a WDH and installed the hitch to our Dakota receiver.  That dealer, is responsible for making sure that the receiver, the trailer, and the WDH all are within design limits and if I got killed as a result of the incompatibility of the three components, he's got to pay the fair market value of my continued existence on this planet to my survivors.  Though it wouldn't do me much good, my survivors would relish in receiving the $7.99 of value my life had, less, of course, attorneys fees and costs of litigation.  
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poston View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2018 at 11:56pm
Originally posted by BVK

 I just remind myself that, if I'm going the speed limit, I'm not a slow vehicle.

I would say that if you're driving the speed limit with vehicles following you, you might not be speeding, but you are a slow vehicle.

Washington law defines a slow vehicle as one "... which is proceeding at a rate of speed less than the normal flow of traffic at the particular time and place."  It doesn't say less than the speed limit.

Aside from the law though, I think it's uncommon courtesy to just pull over and let people by, whether you're pulling your Pod or driving your Maserati.


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Jim
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 2018 at 6:26am
GlueGuy,

First, its really very easy to get a tongue weight of 600 plus lbs on a 179. Dual batteries, dual propane tanks, and a full fresh water tank does it. Lots of folks on this forum have those mods. 

Consider that the WD hitch is effectively creating a bridge between the trailer axle and the TV front axle,so if you really wanted to you could lift the whole rear axle of the TV off the ground with a strong enough WD hitch. The relocated load is therefore not limited to the tongue weight, its limited by the moments (torques) you apply to the system by cranking tension on the wd hitch. 

When you crank on the tension you are creating two moments, both acting around the ball, one pushing the trailer axle down, and one lifting the TV rear axle and pushing the TV front axle down. Basic statics analysis tells us that these are equal and opposite moments because otherwise the whole rig would continue to rotate.

These moments act around the ball so the load moved to the trailer axle is easy to calculate. Its just the ratio of the distance from the ball to the chains divided by the distance from the ball to the trailer axle, multiplied by the hitch tension applied. For a 179 with 30 inch wd bars this is about 0.2 so about 20% of whatever you tension the hitch to goes to the trailer axle. So you are correct that the difference in the two moment arms limits the load moved to the rear axle. But  note that this is independent of the tongue weight. So a 1000 lb wd tension gives you a moment of 2500 ft-lbs which results in about an extra 200 lbs at the trailer axle. 

The load moved to the TV axles is a little harder to calculate (junior high algebra required!) because you have to balance both the weight being moved from the TV axles to the trailer axle (the 200 lbs in the case above) as well as the 2500 ft-lbs moment acting around the ball. The link I provided to the wd hitch calculator earlier does this for you and also gives cute little dials showing how much reserve you have for each item. 

BTW I confirmed the calcs by running my rig through the public scales axle by axle with and without a (very high) wd hitch tension and sure enough, the calcs and real world loads agreed. Ain't science wonderful?

I had deliberately over tensioned the hitch to achieve a level TV. Turns out I had about 1200 lbs tension on my hitch, which is right at its rated capacity.  Would I drive around like that other than to do the experiment? Heck no. Bad for the trailer axle, bad for the trailer frame, bad for the wd hitch, bad for the receiver, and unnecessary for the TV, which can handle more rear axle load than front axle load.  

So the practical  point here is you should not try to use your wd hitch to level your TV. Follow the directions, which suggest using it to bring back the height of the TV at the front axle to what it was prior to connecting the trailer.  That should get the front axle load back to about its original unloaded level. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 2018 at 9:59am
Moral of the story, use a WHD that is sized for the TV and trailer, read and follow the directions for the WHD hitch and don't overload the tension bars, and don't exceed the towing weight capacity of the TV or the GVW of the trailer.  We have small trailers with limited capacity, so if you want to bring along your recliner and a 60" television buy a bigger trailer.  rPods are designed for relatively minimalist and simple camping, but we can enjoy many beautiful campgrounds that the big guys can only drive by and admire.  

As for the slightly off topic issue about pulling over for faster traffic, as a matter of common courtesy (referred to as "uncommon courtesy" by poston, likely because not enough people do it) pull over and let people pass no matter what your speed is relative to the speed limit.  It lessens the tension in your neck muscles (that have the same principles of physics that offgrid so eloquently explained) and you'll feel a lot better not to mention will reduce your chances of being involved in a road-rage incident.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2019 at 8:45am
I am a newbie just got our 179 in August of 2018 and we live in Michigan and have set up the trailer the way we want too.  We are planning on getting out of this snow to warmer climates (Florida and New Mexico).  With all that said I finally got around to having the rig weighted yesterday and have a question even after reading most the posts on the forum concerning tongue weight.  I am pulling the r-pod with a 03 Jeep Grand Cherokee no problem there with the gross weight of the rig.  I am not using a wdh and have a tongue weight of 450 lbs, finding that weight by weighing the tv without anything hooked up to it then attaching the tt to the tv and weighing just the tv axels (2) and the difference is the tongue weight.  Got that.  Then I pulled the tv and tt on the scale (all 3 axels) and found out when I subtracted the tv's weight from the total rig I found out that I was just over the axel rating of 3500 lbs.  Also impacting the weight is when I weighted the rig I had snow load on top of the r-pod, guessing that load to be about 200 lbs and taking that load away from the gross weight of the rig gives me a little breathing room.  And yes we treat our r-pod very poorly in Michigan, allowing the snow to accumulate on the roof.

Here's my question to calculate the tt axel load do you subtract the tongue weight and tv weight from the gross rig weight to determine the load on the axel of the tt??  That would seem to be logical to me, but what do I know.  That's the reason for the question.  Any help would be appreciated and I have load range D tires so that should not be a problem.

Thanks in advance
Jay

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2019 at 10:08am
If you are not using a WDH, the axle weight is the axle weight. No calculations needed.

But it appears you didn't weigh the Pod axle. So, at this point, you can subtract the tongue weight you calculated from your gross weight, and the empty unhooked weight of your Jeep, and that will give you, if everything was straight and level, etc when the weights were done, a calculated axle weight. I don't see why you didn't weigh the TT axle, that sure would answer your question.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2019 at 10:35am
You are correct hind sight is very clear to me.  Just thought that I could use the calculations to come up with what I needed.  Thanks again.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2019 at 10:55am
Not to worry JR, furpod is right, just subtract the total rig weight from the weight of the TV with the trailer attached and that is your trailer axle weight. 

With no wdh the rig doesn't really need to be totally level. If you were using a wdh then if the rig wasn't on a completely flat surface the tension on the wdh would create some errors. But with no wdh the total error won't be more than 2x the scale accuracy, which is usually +-20 lbs or so. If you're worried about being off by at most 40 lbs then you're too close to the limits anywayWink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2019 at 11:59am
Thanks all the light bulb came on when I thought that I had to subtract the tongue weight with the tv's weight to get the trailer's axel weight.  Just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something.  I do have enough breathing room on the trailer's axel weight to enjoy our trip coming up next week.  Thanks again furpod and offgrid.
Jay

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