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StephenH View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Siberian Icebox
    Posted: 10 Dec 2017 at 5:54pm
I'm not sure why the source you quote would insist that catalytic heaters do not produce carbon monoxide. Propane consists of 3 carbon atoms and 8 hydrogen atoms with the structure of CH3-CH2-CH3. Whether in a flame type unit like the Mr. Heater or a catalytic heater, the carbon and hydrogen "burn" to produce heat. The catalyst ensures it does so at a lower temperature, but be sure that the carbon also "burns." Otherwise, you would end up with the catalyst plugged with a block of carbon.

Because both "burn" the carbon as well as the hydrogen, both can create carbon monoxide if there is insufficient oxygen to allow for complete combustion. Both require ventilation and both will need an oxygen depletion sensor to cut off the fuel supply if oxygen levels drop below the point where safe combustion can be assured. Since both also generate water as a byproduct of combustion, the ventilation is also needed to eliminate the moisture build-up that occurs.

Product descriptions for product efficiency:
Camco Olympian RV Wave-3: 99.98% efficient
Mr. Buddy Portable: 99.9% efficient (I could not find any other description except "near 100% efficient).
Both are highly efficient. Both will not produce carbon monoxide if sufficient ventilation is provided but both present a risk if used in a closed area with insufficient ventilation.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2017 at 5:47am
i do have a mr heater, so one more question.  don't you think the pod has enough air breaches (like around the slide along the bottom when open) as to not need to crack a window?  just curious.  hogone
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2017 at 6:02am
I think you would be okay. I have used my buddy heater in my ice fishing shanty for years an never had a problem. it does have a few drafts in it. Can keep it warm inside 70 ish, when it is 5 to -5 outside.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2017 at 7:32am
I think you should crack a window or the vent for O, CO, and to help prevent moisture buildup.  And I don't think it's wise to run any kind of ventless heater overnight while you sleep.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2017 at 8:46am
When we were in the very cold (4 degree) weather, I set the regular furnace at a low temp (55-60 degrees) at night and ran the Buddy while we were awake. That helped conserve propane and kept us from getting too cold.I had the bathroom vent slightly open. There was some air infiltration under the slide-out. I also had the window in the door open just a tiny bit. Since I had installed a window that could open in the door of our 179, I could do that.

I also agree that it is not wise to run a ventless heater unattended, either while sleeping or away.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2017 at 10:54am
Originally posted by StephenH

I'm not sure why the source you quote would insist that catalytic heaters do not produce carbon monoxide. Propane consists of 3 carbon atoms and 8 hydrogen atoms with the structure of CH3-CH2-CH3. Whether in a flame type unit like the Mr. Heater or a catalytic heater, the carbon and hydrogen "burn" to produce heat. The catalyst ensures it does so at a lower temperature, but be sure that the carbon also "burns." Otherwise, you would end up with the catalyst plugged with a block of carbon.

Because both "burn" the carbon as well as the hydrogen, both can create carbon monoxide if there is insufficient oxygen to allow for complete combustion. Both require ventilation and both will need an oxygen depletion sensor to cut off the fuel supply if oxygen levels drop below the point where safe combustion can be assured. Since both also generate water as a byproduct of combustion, the ventilation is also needed to eliminate the moisture build-up that occurs.

Until recently, I thought the same.  But the chemical reaction occurring in a catalytic conversion is not exactly the same as that of 'normal' combustion.  I'm not a chemist, so don't ask me about the specific chemical reactions occurring.

Here's another source indicating properly functioning catalytic heaters produce virtually no carbon monoxide.
https://catalyticovens.com/catalytic-heater-emissions/

At any rate, even a catalytic heater still needs an adequate oxygen supply to function.  If it becomes oxygen starved, the catalytic reaction may stop and normal combustion can occur, leading to the production of carbon monoxide.  So ventilation is still necessary.  And as I said before, you still need a carbon monoxide detector in the space, and I wouldn't recommend that anyone go to sleep with any type of heater running.

Regarding the efficiency, I agree that both non-vented heaters like the Mr. Buddy and catalytic heaters like the Olympian Wave are virtually 100% efficient.  But that doesn't mean that they are both producing the same type of heat.  Recall that there are three types of heat: conduction (warming an object directly), convection (warming an object indirectly via air), and radiant (infrared, radiant heat).  At least 80% of the heat produced by a catalytic heater is radiant, whereas the majority of the heat produced by regular propane heaters is by convection.  The problem with warmed air is that it rises to the ceiling in an enclosed space, making the top of the space warm while the bottom is still cool or even cold (i.e. stratified air).  Radiant heat, however, can be literally pointed at what you want heated (e.g. yourself).  Consequently, it is very possible for you to use less propane to achieve the goal of keeping yourself warm, which is precisely what many of those who have used both types of heaters report.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2017 at 12:17pm
The Mr. Buddy heaters produce radiant heat primarily with some convective (as do the catalytic heaters). The glowing ceramic plates in the Mr. Buddy heater perform much as the catalytic mat in the catalytic heaters to ensure virtually 100% efficient combustion. Regardless of the exact means, both combine hydrogen and oxygen to produce water and carbon and oxygen to produce carbon dioxide when there is sufficient oxygen to support proper combustion. When there is too little oxygen, both will not be able to support this process and produce carbon monoxide. That is why the Buddy heaters include an oxygen depletion sensor. I do not know if the catalytic heaters include an ODS or not. The ODS will cut off the fuel supply if the oxygen level drops to 18% or less from the normal 20.95%. This is above the level where carbon monoxide would likely be produced.

The chart on the linked page specifies the type of heat produced by the Buddy heater is Radiant.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2017 at 1:35pm
Originally posted by StephenH

The Mr. Buddy heaters produce radiant heat primarily with some convective (as do the catalytic heaters). The glowing ceramic plates in the Mr. Buddy heater perform much as the catalytic mat in the catalytic heaters to ensure virtually 100% efficient combustion. Regardless of the exact means, both combine hydrogen and oxygen to produce water and carbon and oxygen to produce carbon dioxide when there is sufficient oxygen to support proper combustion. When there is too little oxygen, both will not be able to support this process and produce carbon monoxide. That is why the Buddy heaters include an oxygen depletion sensor. I do not know if the catalytic heaters include an ODS or not. The ODS will cut off the fuel supply if the oxygen level drops to 18% or less from the normal 20.95%. This is above the level where carbon monoxide would likely be produced.

The chart on the linked page specifies the type of heat produced by the Buddy heater is Radiant.

You seem to be trying to say that there is no meaningful difference between a Mr. Buddy and a catalytic heater.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2017 at 7:46pm
When it comes to safety, there is no essential difference between the two. Which one to get is a personal preference.

From the Olympian Wave manual:
The heater consumes air from the space in which it is used.
Sufficient fresh air must be provided to assure complete
combustion of the fuel gas. Improper combustion can result
in the production of poisonous carbon monoxide, causing
danger of asphyxiation and death. Carbon monoxide is an
odorless, colorless gas. Early signs of carbon monoxide
poisoning resemble the flu, with headache, dizziness and/
or nausea. If you have these signs, heater may not be
working properly. Get fresh air at once! Have heater serviced.
Symptoms of carbon monoxide poisoning often cannot be
recognized before losing consciousnes.

From the Buddy manual:
Asphyxiation Hazard
­ •­ Do­ not­ use­ in­ unventilated­ areas.
­ •­ The­ flow­ of­ combustion­ and­ ventilation­ air­ must­­
­ not­ be­ obstructed.
­ •­ Proper­ ventilation­ air­ must­ be­ provided­ to­­ ­
­ support­ the­ combustion­ air­ requirements­ of­ the­­
­ heater­ being­ used.
­ •­ Refer­ to­ the­ specification­ section­ of­ the­ heater’s­­
­ manual,­ heater­ data plate,­ or­ contact­ the­ factory­­
­ to­­ determine­ combustion­ air­ ventilation­­ ­
­ requirements­ of­ the­ heater.
­ •­ Lack­of­ proper­ ventilation­ air­ will­ lead­ to­­ ­
­ improper­ combustion.
­ •­ Improper­ combustion­ can­ lead­ to­ carbon­­ ­
­ monoxide­ poisoning­ leading­ to­ serious­ injury­ or­­
­ death.­ Symptoms­ of­ carbon­ monoxide­ poisoning­­
­ can­ include­ headaches,­ dizziness­ and­ difficulty­­
­ in­ breathing.

The warnings are essentially the same for both heaters.
StephenH
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2017 at 5:26am
so hopefully it will get below zero here over the next couple of days (4 is the low so far).  so my pod furnace will work say at 2 below, correct?  hogone
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