R-pod Owners Forum Homepage

This site is free to use.
Donations benefit a non-profit Girls Softball organization

Forum Home Forum Home > R-pod Discussion Forums > Podmods, Maintenance, Tips and Tricks
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Vampires and multimeters
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Calendar   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedVampires and multimeters

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 3456>
Author
Message
GLBCamper View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 30 Jun 2015
Location: Oregon
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 274
Direct Link To This Post Topic: Vampires and multimeters
    Posted: 10 Aug 2017 at 4:28pm
Weirder and weirder...

I wanted to see how long it would stay at 6A+ and what would happen if I left the pump switch on with no demand (all faucets closed.)

After just 45 minutes the water pump was too hot to touch. I turned on a faucet and the LPGD beeped once and then the green power light came on. Draw at batteries 0.31 (baseline) BUT (of course) the pump would not run. I suspect if overheated and tripped and when it did the LPGD came back online.

I'll let it cool and see if it comes back or if it is fried.

How do I check it at the pump? As you noticed, if you are very specific I can do it, but vague instructions like "check it at the pump" are lost on me. Sorry.
Old: 2014 177 HRE
2015 Tacoma V6 4x4 Double Cab
New: 2016 EVO ATS 200rd
2016 F150 4x4 Sport
Back to Top
CharlieM View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 23 Nov 2012
Location: N. Colorado
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1797
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2017 at 5:42pm
Sounds like we're making progress. Definitely seems like a pump problem. The pump will draw current proportional to the pressure it is pumping against. With a faucet open the pump should be running but the pressure is something less than the cutoff pressure. When you close the faucet the pump should continue to run, increasing the system pressure until the upper trip point is reached. The current will increase as the pressure builds until the upper trip point is reached and the pump is disconnected. If the pump is unable to reach that upper trip pressure it will continue to run forever. SO, in your 45 minute experiment did the pump continue to run or just stop, sit, and heat up? It sounds like the latter, in which case it will get hot and maybe seize up. The upper trip point may be set too high or the pump may be defective. The trip pressure is adjustable with an Allen wrench. In either case the 6A load you see will definitely drain your battery as you observed. Six Amps for 24 hours is 144 AH which is more than 50% of the rated battery capacity. It should lower the measured voltage to less than 12.0V. Truth is beginning to emerge from the smoke and clouds. Wink

The action of the LP detector sounds like low voltage. This could be a combination of weak/discharged battery and marginal wiring. We'll work that after we deal with the pump.
Charlie
Northern Colorado
OLD: 2013 RP-172, 2010 Honda Pilot 3.5L 4WD
PRESENT: 2014 Camplite 21RBS, 2013 Supercharged Tacoma 4L V6 4WD
Back to Top
GLBCamper View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 30 Jun 2015
Location: Oregon
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 274
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2017 at 6:20pm
The pump did not make any noise during the 45 minute test period when the switch was on with all faucets closed. It just sat there quietly and got hot until I turned on a faucet and it tripped. Once it cooled down it functioned "as normal" that is to say it sounded and operated normally, but drawing 3.6A with demand and 6A with faucets shut. A smoking gun??

The LPGD is definitely getting power, even when the WP switch is on, because the green light will blink indicating "warm up" mode, regardless of the switch position. (It blinks for several minutes every time I disconnect and reconnect the battery cutoff.) But if it is solid green, it goes off if I turn on the WP switch.
Old: 2014 177 HRE
2015 Tacoma V6 4x4 Double Cab
New: 2016 EVO ATS 200rd
2016 F150 4x4 Sport
Back to Top
CharlieM View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 23 Nov 2012
Location: N. Colorado
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1797
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2017 at 7:43pm
It does seem you have zeroed in on the problem. For some reason the pump cannot reach the upper trip setting of the pressure switch. I assume you get adequate flow when the faucet is open, indicating no obstructions in the intake such as the strainer. Either the pump itself is weak or defective or the cutout switch is set too high or defective. Determining which requires a pressure gauge on a faucet. The pressure switch, usually on top of the pump next to the power connection, is adjustable with an Allen wrench. Backing out the screw (CCW from the top) will decrease the cutoff pressure. Not knowing your exact camper I cannot help you much more. If the camper is still in warranty a dealer visit is in order. If not you might still take it by a dealer and have him test the pump assembly. Worst case a new pump a less than $100. 
Charlie
Northern Colorado
OLD: 2013 RP-172, 2010 Honda Pilot 3.5L 4WD
PRESENT: 2014 Camplite 21RBS, 2013 Supercharged Tacoma 4L V6 4WD
Back to Top
pgoelz View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: 22 Jul 2016
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 70
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2017 at 9:42pm
Originally posted by CharlieM

It does seem you have zeroed in on the problem. For some reason the pump cannot reach the upper trip setting of the pressure switch. I assume you get adequate flow when the faucet is open, indicating no obstructions in the intake such as the strainer. Either the pump itself is weak or defective or the cutout switch is set too high or defective.  
While all that is quite true (and probably the most likely cause) DO NOT overlook the possibility that the batteries are weak and the draw from the pump causes the battery voltage to sag to the point the pump cannot reach the cutoff pressure.  Dead easy to diagnose.... measure the battery voltage with the pump off, running and then stalled.  It should not change much.  

As for measuring the voltage at the pump, the easiest method is to use meter probes that pierce the wiring insulation.  Failing that, you need to find a place where you can expose the wires as close to the pump as possible.  

If the batteries are OK (the voltage remains nearly constant with the pump stalled) and you do not have the means to troubleshoot the pump, a trip to a dealer is in order.  You have most likely identified the excessive drain.... now it should be a simple matter to fix it.  

Paul
Back to Top
GLBCamper View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 30 Jun 2015
Location: Oregon
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 274
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2017 at 9:47pm
The manual for my pump says adjusting the pressure switch should only be done by a qualified technician, so I think I have reached the limit of my capabilities (or at least my desire.) I made a service appointment with the dealer. The soonest they can get me in is three weeks away, but that's OK. At least they won't have to start at square one with only the symptom of "something's draining my battery" and for that I thank everyone on this board. I'll post an update when I find out what they had to do. THANKS to all for not giving up on me! I learned a ton and hopefully others will, too.
Old: 2014 177 HRE
2015 Tacoma V6 4x4 Double Cab
New: 2016 EVO ATS 200rd
2016 F150 4x4 Sport
Back to Top
GLBCamper View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 30 Jun 2015
Location: Oregon
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 274
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2017 at 9:54pm
Originally posted by pgoelz

While all that is quite true (and probably the most likely cause) DO NOT overlook the possibility that the batteries are weak and the draw from the pump causes the battery voltage to sag to the point the pump cannot reach the cutoff pressure.  Dead easy to diagnose.... measure the battery voltage with the pump off, running and then stalled.  It should not change much.  
Paul

I'm going to do this tomorrow, just to be sure. I'll let you know.
Old: 2014 177 HRE
2015 Tacoma V6 4x4 Double Cab
New: 2016 EVO ATS 200rd
2016 F150 4x4 Sport
Back to Top
CharlieM View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 23 Nov 2012
Location: N. Colorado
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1797
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2017 at 7:50am
My guess is the pump is defective. Many RV pumps, like the ShurFlo series, are thermally protected. That means they will disconnect from the 12V source when they get too hot. When this occurs the input current will drop to zero. Until then the pump will continue to turn even if they can't reach the cutoff pressure. They should not seize up and not run. You should be able to hear and feel the pump running.

Be aware that dealers don't really know much but they want you to think they do. Their usual response is that everything is OK and please go away. Don't let them get away with that answer. You know there is something wrong with the pump and it probably needs replacing. Also be aware that, even though your camper may be out of warranty, many of the components carry longer manufacturer's warranties. Check it out in your manuals or on line.

Good luck and keep us informed. Your feedback helps us too Smile
Charlie
Northern Colorado
OLD: 2013 RP-172, 2010 Honda Pilot 3.5L 4WD
PRESENT: 2014 Camplite 21RBS, 2013 Supercharged Tacoma 4L V6 4WD
Back to Top
GLBCamper View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 30 Jun 2015
Location: Oregon
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 274
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2017 at 1:24pm
Final(?) battery vs. pump tests.

I charged the batteries overnight and started this morning (after an hour for decay) @ 12.90.

First test per Paul, check voltage at all pump stages:
Switch on, no demand = 12.89
Faucet on it ticked down about 1/100th every few seconds to 12.78 until I shut off faucet, with the switch still on ("stalled?") it ticked back up at about the same rate, landing back at 12.90.

I double checked the amp draw this morning and got the same results. Demand = 3.5, No demand = 6+.

Also, even with a fully charged battery the LPGD light goes out when pump switch goes on. BUT does NOT when connected to shore power.
Old: 2014 177 HRE
2015 Tacoma V6 4x4 Double Cab
New: 2016 EVO ATS 200rd
2016 F150 4x4 Sport
Back to Top
pgoelz View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: 22 Jul 2016
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 70
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2017 at 1:54pm
Originally posted by GLBCamper

Final(?) battery vs. pump tests.

I charged the batteries overnight and started this morning (after an hour for decay) @ 12.90.

First test per Paul, check voltage at all pump stages:
Switch on, no demand = 12.89
Faucet on it ticked down about 1/100th every few seconds to 12.78 until I shut off faucet, with the switch still on ("stalled?") it ticked back up at about the same rate, landing back at 12.90.

I double checked the amp draw this morning and got the same results. Demand = 3.5, No demand = 6+.

Also, even with a fully charged battery the LPGD light goes out when pump switch goes on. BUT does NOT when connected to shore power.
OK, not making sense again.  If the pump running current is less than the pump stalled current, the battery voltage would not have risen in the stalled condition.  So either we are missing something or the pump was NOT stalled.  Hard to tell for sure unless you can measure current and voltage at the same time.  

FACT:  A stalled pump at 6A WILL discharge your batteries much faster than expected and COULD explain your overnight discharge issue.  If the batteries have been discharged below 12V and held there by the water pump for some time, they could be damaged.  

QUESTION:  What is causing the pump to stall?  So far we don't have enough information to know so all we can do is keep guessing.  

DIAGNOSIS:  Measure the current with the pump stalled (make sure it IS stalled) and then measure the battery voltage with the pump known to be still stalled.  If the pump is stalled and the battery voltage is above 12V, either the pump or pressure switch are bad, or the pressure switch is mis-adjusted.  

If you have a battery cutoff switch, place your ammeter across it and open the switch.  This enables current measurement.  With the pump stalled and drawing 6A, close the cutoff switch (bypassing the ammeter) and remove the ammeter.  The pump will still be stalled since you did not interrupt power.  Now switch the meter to DC volts and measure the battery voltage at the battery terminals.  If above 12V, the problem is the pump or pressure switch.  If below 12V, it is probably the battery.  

Because your LPG detector LED goes off when the pump stalls, there is an outside chance the problem is due to insufficient wire size or a loose connection.  To further troubleshoot that (after eliminating the pump and switch itself) will require measuring voltage at the pump and at the LPG detector.  

Take it step by step and don't assume anything including battery health.  The answer is in there and it should be simple to find it.  

OOPS.... just read your post above more closely..... are you saying the LPG LED goes out when the pump switch is ON and the pump is NOT running and NOT stalled?  If so, we have another mystery.  

Paul
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 3456>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.64
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz