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Topic ClosedVampires and multimeters

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pgoelz View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Vampires and multimeters
    Posted: 11 Aug 2017 at 8:33pm
Originally posted by GLBCamper

I agree that I'm not seeing the mechanical correlation, but I've double checked my amp draw results and continue to get 2.4A on demand and no additional draw on standby. Sooo...?? Remember, the pump was making NO noise in standby mode before. It just sucked amps, overheated and tripped.
Yeah, and that is a problem because you have no visual or audible indication anything is wrong except possibly for noticing that the LPG LED is off.  

As I recall, the pump in my 171 takes maybe 1-2 seconds to trip the pressure switch after I close the tap.  If yours takes a lot longer, there might still be a problem.  The only way I can think of to make sure it is fixed would be to dial the pressure up somewhat and make sure the pump still shuts off.  Then dial it back down.  

Paul
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2017 at 3:34pm
Originally posted by pgoelz

Hmmmm.... while that could certainly affect the overall flow, I'm not sure I can see how it would cause the pump to actually stall when you close the faucet.  It might take a bit longer to build up pressure, but unless there was some weird way that increasing pressure moved the pump and kinked the line further, I'm not quite convinced.  Yet ;)  

Paul

I agree that I'm not seeing the mechanical correlation, but I've double checked my amp draw results and continue to get 2.4A on demand and no additional draw on standby. Sooo...?? Remember, the pump was making NO noise in standby mode before. It just sucked amps, overheated and tripped.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2017 at 3:23pm
Hmmmm.... while that could certainly affect the overall flow, I'm not sure I can see how it would cause the pump to actually stall when you close the faucet.  It might take a bit longer to build up pressure, but unless there was some weird way that increasing pressure moved the pump and kinked the line further, I'm not quite convinced.  Yet ;)  

Paul
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2017 at 2:50pm
SOLVED!!

I was looking around the pump to see how hard it would be to replace and saw a big kink in the inlet (?) (strainer side) hose. Frankly, I can't believe I got any water pressure through that thing BUT now my amp draw on demand = 2.4 (over an amp less then before!) and no demand but switch on = 0.31 (my baseline!)

After an hour in standby mode the pump is cool to the touch, operates normally AND the LPGD light is no longer influenced by the pump switch.

(Surprisingly, my water pressure didn't improve, but it seems about what I expect from an RV system. Adequate.)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2017 at 1:54pm
Originally posted by GLBCamper

Final(?) battery vs. pump tests.

I charged the batteries overnight and started this morning (after an hour for decay) @ 12.90.

First test per Paul, check voltage at all pump stages:
Switch on, no demand = 12.89
Faucet on it ticked down about 1/100th every few seconds to 12.78 until I shut off faucet, with the switch still on ("stalled?") it ticked back up at about the same rate, landing back at 12.90.

I double checked the amp draw this morning and got the same results. Demand = 3.5, No demand = 6+.

Also, even with a fully charged battery the LPGD light goes out when pump switch goes on. BUT does NOT when connected to shore power.
OK, not making sense again.  If the pump running current is less than the pump stalled current, the battery voltage would not have risen in the stalled condition.  So either we are missing something or the pump was NOT stalled.  Hard to tell for sure unless you can measure current and voltage at the same time.  

FACT:  A stalled pump at 6A WILL discharge your batteries much faster than expected and COULD explain your overnight discharge issue.  If the batteries have been discharged below 12V and held there by the water pump for some time, they could be damaged.  

QUESTION:  What is causing the pump to stall?  So far we don't have enough information to know so all we can do is keep guessing.  

DIAGNOSIS:  Measure the current with the pump stalled (make sure it IS stalled) and then measure the battery voltage with the pump known to be still stalled.  If the pump is stalled and the battery voltage is above 12V, either the pump or pressure switch are bad, or the pressure switch is mis-adjusted.  

If you have a battery cutoff switch, place your ammeter across it and open the switch.  This enables current measurement.  With the pump stalled and drawing 6A, close the cutoff switch (bypassing the ammeter) and remove the ammeter.  The pump will still be stalled since you did not interrupt power.  Now switch the meter to DC volts and measure the battery voltage at the battery terminals.  If above 12V, the problem is the pump or pressure switch.  If below 12V, it is probably the battery.  

Because your LPG detector LED goes off when the pump stalls, there is an outside chance the problem is due to insufficient wire size or a loose connection.  To further troubleshoot that (after eliminating the pump and switch itself) will require measuring voltage at the pump and at the LPG detector.  

Take it step by step and don't assume anything including battery health.  The answer is in there and it should be simple to find it.  

OOPS.... just read your post above more closely..... are you saying the LPG LED goes out when the pump switch is ON and the pump is NOT running and NOT stalled?  If so, we have another mystery.  

Paul
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2017 at 1:24pm
Final(?) battery vs. pump tests.

I charged the batteries overnight and started this morning (after an hour for decay) @ 12.90.

First test per Paul, check voltage at all pump stages:
Switch on, no demand = 12.89
Faucet on it ticked down about 1/100th every few seconds to 12.78 until I shut off faucet, with the switch still on ("stalled?") it ticked back up at about the same rate, landing back at 12.90.

I double checked the amp draw this morning and got the same results. Demand = 3.5, No demand = 6+.

Also, even with a fully charged battery the LPGD light goes out when pump switch goes on. BUT does NOT when connected to shore power.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2017 at 7:50am
My guess is the pump is defective. Many RV pumps, like the ShurFlo series, are thermally protected. That means they will disconnect from the 12V source when they get too hot. When this occurs the input current will drop to zero. Until then the pump will continue to turn even if they can't reach the cutoff pressure. They should not seize up and not run. You should be able to hear and feel the pump running.

Be aware that dealers don't really know much but they want you to think they do. Their usual response is that everything is OK and please go away. Don't let them get away with that answer. You know there is something wrong with the pump and it probably needs replacing. Also be aware that, even though your camper may be out of warranty, many of the components carry longer manufacturer's warranties. Check it out in your manuals or on line.

Good luck and keep us informed. Your feedback helps us too Smile
Charlie
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2017 at 9:54pm
Originally posted by pgoelz

While all that is quite true (and probably the most likely cause) DO NOT overlook the possibility that the batteries are weak and the draw from the pump causes the battery voltage to sag to the point the pump cannot reach the cutoff pressure.  Dead easy to diagnose.... measure the battery voltage with the pump off, running and then stalled.  It should not change much.  
Paul

I'm going to do this tomorrow, just to be sure. I'll let you know.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2017 at 9:47pm
The manual for my pump says adjusting the pressure switch should only be done by a qualified technician, so I think I have reached the limit of my capabilities (or at least my desire.) I made a service appointment with the dealer. The soonest they can get me in is three weeks away, but that's OK. At least they won't have to start at square one with only the symptom of "something's draining my battery" and for that I thank everyone on this board. I'll post an update when I find out what they had to do. THANKS to all for not giving up on me! I learned a ton and hopefully others will, too.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2017 at 9:42pm
Originally posted by CharlieM

It does seem you have zeroed in on the problem. For some reason the pump cannot reach the upper trip setting of the pressure switch. I assume you get adequate flow when the faucet is open, indicating no obstructions in the intake such as the strainer. Either the pump itself is weak or defective or the cutout switch is set too high or defective.  
While all that is quite true (and probably the most likely cause) DO NOT overlook the possibility that the batteries are weak and the draw from the pump causes the battery voltage to sag to the point the pump cannot reach the cutoff pressure.  Dead easy to diagnose.... measure the battery voltage with the pump off, running and then stalled.  It should not change much.  

As for measuring the voltage at the pump, the easiest method is to use meter probes that pierce the wiring insulation.  Failing that, you need to find a place where you can expose the wires as close to the pump as possible.  

If the batteries are OK (the voltage remains nearly constant with the pump stalled) and you do not have the means to troubleshoot the pump, a trip to a dealer is in order.  You have most likely identified the excessive drain.... now it should be a simple matter to fix it.  

Paul
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