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Topic ClosedVampires and multimeters

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CharlieM View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Vampires and multimeters
    Posted: 10 Aug 2017 at 7:43pm
It does seem you have zeroed in on the problem. For some reason the pump cannot reach the upper trip setting of the pressure switch. I assume you get adequate flow when the faucet is open, indicating no obstructions in the intake such as the strainer. Either the pump itself is weak or defective or the cutout switch is set too high or defective. Determining which requires a pressure gauge on a faucet. The pressure switch, usually on top of the pump next to the power connection, is adjustable with an Allen wrench. Backing out the screw (CCW from the top) will decrease the cutoff pressure. Not knowing your exact camper I cannot help you much more. If the camper is still in warranty a dealer visit is in order. If not you might still take it by a dealer and have him test the pump assembly. Worst case a new pump a less than $100. 
Charlie
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2017 at 6:20pm
The pump did not make any noise during the 45 minute test period when the switch was on with all faucets closed. It just sat there quietly and got hot until I turned on a faucet and it tripped. Once it cooled down it functioned "as normal" that is to say it sounded and operated normally, but drawing 3.6A with demand and 6A with faucets shut. A smoking gun??

The LPGD is definitely getting power, even when the WP switch is on, because the green light will blink indicating "warm up" mode, regardless of the switch position. (It blinks for several minutes every time I disconnect and reconnect the battery cutoff.) But if it is solid green, it goes off if I turn on the WP switch.
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CharlieM View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2017 at 5:42pm
Sounds like we're making progress. Definitely seems like a pump problem. The pump will draw current proportional to the pressure it is pumping against. With a faucet open the pump should be running but the pressure is something less than the cutoff pressure. When you close the faucet the pump should continue to run, increasing the system pressure until the upper trip point is reached. The current will increase as the pressure builds until the upper trip point is reached and the pump is disconnected. If the pump is unable to reach that upper trip pressure it will continue to run forever. SO, in your 45 minute experiment did the pump continue to run or just stop, sit, and heat up? It sounds like the latter, in which case it will get hot and maybe seize up. The upper trip point may be set too high or the pump may be defective. The trip pressure is adjustable with an Allen wrench. In either case the 6A load you see will definitely drain your battery as you observed. Six Amps for 24 hours is 144 AH which is more than 50% of the rated battery capacity. It should lower the measured voltage to less than 12.0V. Truth is beginning to emerge from the smoke and clouds. Wink

The action of the LP detector sounds like low voltage. This could be a combination of weak/discharged battery and marginal wiring. We'll work that after we deal with the pump.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2017 at 4:28pm
Weirder and weirder...

I wanted to see how long it would stay at 6A+ and what would happen if I left the pump switch on with no demand (all faucets closed.)

After just 45 minutes the water pump was too hot to touch. I turned on a faucet and the LPGD beeped once and then the green power light came on. Draw at batteries 0.31 (baseline) BUT (of course) the pump would not run. I suspect if overheated and tripped and when it did the LPGD came back online.

I'll let it cool and see if it comes back or if it is fried.

How do I check it at the pump? As you noticed, if you are very specific I can do it, but vague instructions like "check it at the pump" are lost on me. Sorry.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2017 at 3:26pm
Originally posted by GLBCamper

Now the INTERESTING thing: The water pump. First, switch on but no demand 0.31 (the baseline.) Then with demand 3.45. BUT after I turned off the faucet with the switch still on it jumped to 6.45 and stayed there. When camping, I try to remember to turn off the switch when not in use, but if I forget that could really add up. The pump is cool to the touch, even with demand.

But even MORE INTERESTING is that I noticed that when the water pump switch is on, the green light power indicator on the LP Gas detector goes out. On/off. Off/on. They are connected?!?

Whoa, that IS interesting indeed!  I would highly suspect something wrong with your water pump..... it should draw current when it is pumping but as soon as you close the tap and the pressure switch opens, it should stop altogether.  My best guess is that your pressure switch is not opening when the tap is closed and the water pump either runs continuously or stalls against the pressure.  Put the ammeter in series with just the pump and confirm.... the drain should be ZERO before AND AFTER it runs.  

As for the LPG LED, can't say for sure.  I wonder if it goes out if the voltage sags below some voltage.  If it is tapped into the same feed as the water pump, I would look for under sized wiring or perhaps a loose connection.  

Another possibility is that there is bad or undersized wiring somewhere between the battery and the water pump.... or the batteries themselves are bad.  It may be that there is insufficient voltage to the pump and that it cannot pump the water system up far enough once a tap is closed to activate the pressure  shutoff, so it keeps trying forever.  

Go step by step.....  measure the battery voltage at the battery terminals with the pump "stuck" drawing 6A.... does the voltage sag more than a couple tenths of a volt?  If so, bad batteries.  If not, check the voltage at the pump itself.  If it more than (say) half a volt below the battery voltage with the pump "stuck" look for bad or undersized wiring somewhere.  

Does the LPG LED go out when the pump runs when you are on shore power?  That would tend to implicate your batteries.  

We're getting somewhere.... 

Paul
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2017 at 1:29pm
I'm definitely not connected to shore power.

It stabilized at 0.31 which, if you look at my original post is very close to the parasitic loads I already identified, so I'm not surprised. Here is my log from today:

Baseline 0.31 stable
+ fridge 0.86
- fridge + ALL interior LED lights 1.45 (When camping, I rarely use more than 1 for more than half hour)
- lights + furnace 3.29. (I couldn't get it to come on for long, hot today)

Now the INTERESTING thing: The water pump. First, switch on but no demand 0.31 (the baseline.) Then with demand 3.45. BUT after I turned off the faucet with the switch still on it jumped to 6.45 and stayed there. When camping, I try to remember to turn off the switch when not in use, but if I forget that could really add up. The pump is cool to the touch, even with demand.

But even MORE INTERESTING is that I noticed that when the water pump switch is on, the green light power indicator on the LP Gas detector goes out. On/off. Off/on. They are connected?!?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2017 at 12:47pm
That degree of fluctuation is unusual but could have several causes. Common LP detectors typically draw ~0.1. Electronic thermostats have some draw and control boards in fridges will draw something even if "off". If the fluctuation is rapid and random I'd suspect the meter itself. Inexpensive meters can be flaky at the low end of their ranges. If the fluctuation appears more regular it might really be in the trailer.

We are assuming shore power is disconnected but that's a good thought.

The meter in use has no AC current capability.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2017 at 11:32am
Originally posted by GLBCamper

With battery bypass OUT reading 0.00 (as expected)
With battery bypass IN and all systems except LPGD off, reading fluctuated wildly between 0.30 & 0.80 (again, I believe as expected. But is it normal to have it bounce around wildly?)

I will now start adding things beginning with the fridge and will update later.

Like I said, even my passive "leave it on for 3 days and see what happens to the voltage" hasn't replicated the rapid draw down that I experienced while camping, so hopefully this will produce results.
Without knowing exactly what is connected to the battery (including any loads you don't know about), I can't comment on whether a variable load of 300-800 mA is normal or not.  Off the top of my head, I don't think so.  But I don't know how your LPGD works.... it might be heating a small sensor element.  

Were you by chance connected to shore power?  Any chance the charge controller was providing a float charge?  It is also remotely possible that if you were connected to shore power, there was some AC leakage into the battery circuit that was confusing your ammeter.  Switch your meter from DC to to AC amps and see if you see anything.... should be zero.  If it is non-zero, that could explain the fluctuation.  

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2017 at 11:06am
OK. Finally, we are getting somewhere! No thanks to me and ALL thanks to you.

I followed the above instructions exactly. Here are my results.

With battery bypass OUT reading 0.00 (as expected)
With battery bypass IN and all systems except LPGD off, reading fluctuated wildly between 0.30 & 0.80 (again, I believe as expected. But is it normal to have it bounce around wildly?)

I will now start adding things beginning with the fridge and will update later.

Like I said, even my passive "leave it on for 3 days and see what happens to the voltage" hasn't replicated the rapid draw down that I experienced while camping, so hopefully this will produce results.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2017 at 8:04am
Originally posted by GLBCamper

I am using a CenTech multimeter model 98025. I have it set to DCV 20 and am touching the red lead to the positive on the battery with the positive line connected to it and the negative lead to the negative terminal on the other battery with the ground wire attached. Wrong? Here is my log: I'm not seeing a smoking gun yet.

Perhaps because there is none to find?  It looks to me like your voltages imply (note that I said "imply") a fairly slow discharge after you burned off the surface charge.  According to the discharge table I have, 12.65V is 100% charge.  Assuming your meter is correctly calibrated, your batteries spent several days ABOVE that voltage.  That would not be the case if there was any appreciable discharge current.  And your voltages certainly do not show a full discharge overnight like I thought you initially were describing????  

ONE MORE TIME..... merely measuring battery voltage DOES NOT help diagnose rapid battery discharge since we have no idea how healthy your batteries are.  Too many variables in the equation.  If you want to figure out what (if anything) is discharging your batteries MEASURE THE BATTERY CURRENT.  At the batteries, and preferably between them, to eliminate any unexpected connections.  Without that, all we can do is speculate.  And speculation is not definitive.  

Paul
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