weight distribution...again! - R-pod Owners Forum

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offgrid

Senior Member

Joined: 23 Jul 2018
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5290

Calendar Event: weight distribution...again!
Posted: 23 Jan 2019 at 2:00pm

Yah zen2b1 I think for your rig 600/6000 will be just fine, you won't have nearly the tongue weight I have and so you won't be needing nearly as much spring bar tension as I do in my 179. You may end up with the opposite problem, too little tongue weight, you'll want to be at least 10-11% under all loading conditions to reduce the possibility of sway.

1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold

michaeln

Groupie

Joined: 08 Dec 2018
Location: Avery, CA
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 40

Posted: 23 Jan 2019 at 1:43pm

I couldn't get the e2 600/6000 trunnion setup to work correctly with my '18 Tacoma and Rpod 171.

After lots of back and forth with e2 support and my sending them pictures, they determined that the hitch head was defective... either welded together wrong or holes drilled wrong.

In any case they are sending me a new hitch head and a pickup slip for the one I have now so they can inspect it. Hope I am able to get the new one working right. They reiterated this is the correct hitch for my setup.

---
Avery, CA

zen2b1

Newbie

Joined: 11 Sep 2018
Location: Santa Fe jnm
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 11

Posted: 23 Jan 2019 at 1:14pm

Thanks Offgrid, I need to get out and do some measurements ... sounds like a 600/6000 for my 171/4 runner setup...input appreciated.

offgrid

Senior Member

Joined: 23 Jul 2018
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5290

Posted: 23 Jan 2019 at 6:58am

I've been looking into the weight distribution hitch rating question a little further.

My Reese Pro hitch (rated at 1200 lbs) is stated to have a spring bar rating before bending of 1200 lbs each or 2400 lbs for the two bars. I interpret that to be the max tension the bars can take before bending. Similarly I would assume that 600 lb bars would max out at 1200 lbs total tension. Or an 800 lb system would be 1600 lbs max on the bars. Not sure if similar limits would apply to other wdh systems or not.

So, what kind of max tension loading will the wdh spring bars see? 3g's is a number I've seen stated multiple places as a minimum vehicle frame and suspension design limit. If you ever experienced anything like a 3g bump load driving your rig you'd definitely notice. For example it looks like both the rPod trailer axle and frame will reach yield and fail at about 2.75-3 g's. Probably the tow vehicle design limits are higher as there seem to be way more trailer axle/frame failures than TV suspension failures. The actual numbers the manufacturers use are proprietary.

So, imagine that a giant hand picks up your rig and drops it so that it experiences 3g's when it hits the pavement. Assuming a similar level of spring stiffness in all 3 axles you should see every load in the system go up by a factor of about 3. So, if your spring tension was 400 lbs to start with then you would be at 1200 lbs spring tension, the presumed upper limit for 600 lb bars. If your spring tension was 800 lbs to start with then you would be at 2400 lbs, the max for my 1200 rated wd system.

What this means is I think you want to pick your wdh rating based on your spring bar tension not directly on your tongue weight (or more accurately not based on your combined tongue weight plus the load behind your TV rear axle.

How to know what your bar tension is? its pretty easy, the objective is to get the TV front axle weight back to where it was without the trailer. You can determine that using the towing calculator by first putting in all your numbers, then setting the trailer wt to 1 lb (it won't accept zero trailer wt), recording the front axle load, then putting the trailer wt back to your expected max trailer weight and adjusting the spring tension to give the same front axle load as in step 1.

When I did this I came up with about 750 lbs wd tension, which would work out to about 2250 lbs bar tension at 3g, or 3.2g's at the point of spring bar failure for my current setup. If I dropped back to 800 lb bars I'd only be good for about 2.1 g's. A 1000 lb hitch rating would give me about 2.7g's. That would probably be perfect as the bars would fail before the trailer and TV frames and suspensions, but not way before. But I'm not way off with my 1200 lb rated system.

The other thing to look for is a bouncy ride due to too stiff spring bars, but my ride feels pretty good and is well damped so I'm going to stay put for now.

Everyone is going to have a different spring bar tension. If your bar tension is low and works out to say 450 lbs or less than a 600 lb rated wdh would be a better choice for you.

https://www.ajdesigner.com/apptrailertow/weightdistributionhitch.php

1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold

StephenH

podders Helping podders - pHp

Joined: 29 Nov 2015
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6418

Posted: 21 Jan 2019 at 7:29pm

Only factory built-in controllers had the problem so the recall was to fix that. The problem was that the factory controller might decide that the trailer was not connected and thus not apply brakes as needed. The recall was to address that. The Tekonsha Prodigy P2 is an aftermarket item and therefore was not affected by the problem. You are good to go. Still though, you may want to contact Hayes to see if it needs to have the recall applied. If so, the upgrade is done at no cost. http://www.hayesbc.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Sway-Master-NHTSA-Recall-18E-045.pdf

StephenH
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,...

ouR escaPOD mods
Former RPod 179
Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS

Motor7

Senior Member

Joined: 09 Jan 2019
Location: E. TN
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 196

Posted: 21 Jan 2019 at 7:04pm

Well I picked up a Hayes on CL today for $150....I'll let y'all know my thoughts in a few weeks.

I know it's over a year old, and I am running a Tekonsha Prodigy P2...was that in the recall?

2016 R-Pod 176T

StephenH

podders Helping podders - pHp

Joined: 29 Nov 2015
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6418

Posted: 21 Jan 2019 at 6:46pm

Yes. Mine was one of the ones recalled because it was not compatible with the built-in trailer brake controller in some vehicles. The upgrade was to fix that. The upgraded unit no longer specifies that it is incompatible with built-in brake controllers.

The Tuson controller can apply each side independently instead of together so it is more sophisticated. However, I had purchased the Hayes before I ever heard of the Tuson unit. The Hayes is a simple install. The Tuson specifies that it should be installed by a technician, not the end user.

StephenH
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,...

ouR escaPOD mods
Former RPod 179
Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS

offgrid

Senior Member

Joined: 23 Jul 2018
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5290

Posted: 21 Jan 2019 at 4:59pm

Electronic stability control is standard equipment now on many vehicles. It combines individual wheel speed sensors, accelerometer(s), and steering wheel position sensors with independent brake force actuators to send the appropriate brake force to each wheel as required for conditions. So there's nothing wrong with the concept of controlling sway electronically.

The Hayes system appears to be a relatively crude version of the same concept, crude because its using GPS rather than directly measuring wheel speed, and because its not controlling each wheel separately. That's not to say that the system can't provide benefits, I'd just proceed cautiously and would want to know more about how it operates. The devil is in the details.

Personally, I'd be concerned about the way the system uses the GPS signal as there are many conditions where GPS fails to operate accurately. I also note that the system was recalled last summer for an upgrade because it wasn't compatible with some electronic trailer brake controllers.

1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold

StephenH

podders Helping podders - pHp

Joined: 29 Nov 2015
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6418

Posted: 21 Jan 2019 at 4:24pm

My thoughts too. The mechanical can control only so much. If it gets to the point that the mechanical is insufficient, then the electronic can potentially prevent a disaster.The videos I have seen indicate that it does make towing much more stable even if the sway is not to the point of a near-accident.

StephenH
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,...

ouR escaPOD mods
Former RPod 179
Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS

TheBum

Senior Member

Joined: 26 Feb 2016
Location: Texas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1407

Posted: 21 Jan 2019 at 2:56pm

I'd still be a little leery of electronic sway control. It can only compensate for sway after the trailer starts swaying. Conventional mechanical sway control prevents most sway from happening in the first place. A combination would be nice.

Alan
2022 R-Pod 196 "RaptoRPod"
2022 Ram 1500 Lone Star 4x4
Three cats

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offgrid Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 23 Jul 2018 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5290	Calendar Event: weight distribution...again! Posted: 23 Jan 2019 at 2:00pm
	Yah zen2b1 I think for your rig 600/6000 will be just fine, you won't have nearly the tongue weight I have and so you won't be needing nearly as much spring bar tension as I do in my 179. You may end up with the opposite problem, too little tongue weight, you'll want to be at least 10-11% under all loading conditions to reduce the possibility of sway.
	1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold

michaeln Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Groupie Joined: 08 Dec 2018 Location: Avery, CA Online Status: Offline Posts: 40	Posted: 23 Jan 2019 at 1:43pm
	I couldn't get the e2 600/6000 trunnion setup to work correctly with my '18 Tacoma and Rpod 171. After lots of back and forth with e2 support and my sending them pictures, they determined that the hitch head was defective... either welded together wrong or holes drilled wrong. In any case they are sending me a new hitch head and a pickup slip for the one I have now so they can inspect it. Hope I am able to get the new one working right. They reiterated this is the correct hitch for my setup.
	--- Avery, CA

zen2b1 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: 11 Sep 2018 Location: Santa Fe jnm Online Status: Offline Posts: 11	Posted: 23 Jan 2019 at 1:14pm
	Thanks Offgrid, I need to get out and do some measurements ... sounds like a 600/6000 for my 171/4 runner setup...input appreciated.

offgrid Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 23 Jul 2018 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5290	Posted: 23 Jan 2019 at 6:58am
	I've been looking into the weight distribution hitch rating question a little further. My Reese Pro hitch (rated at 1200 lbs) is stated to have a spring bar rating before bending of 1200 lbs each or 2400 lbs for the two bars. I interpret that to be the max tension the bars can take before bending. Similarly I would assume that 600 lb bars would max out at 1200 lbs total tension. Or an 800 lb system would be 1600 lbs max on the bars. Not sure if similar limits would apply to other wdh systems or not. So, what kind of max tension loading will the wdh spring bars see? 3g's is a number I've seen stated multiple places as a minimum vehicle frame and suspension design limit. If you ever experienced anything like a 3g bump load driving your rig you'd definitely notice. For example it looks like both the rPod trailer axle and frame will reach yield and fail at about 2.75-3 g's. Probably the tow vehicle design limits are higher as there seem to be way more trailer axle/frame failures than TV suspension failures. The actual numbers the manufacturers use are proprietary. So, imagine that a giant hand picks up your rig and drops it so that it experiences 3g's when it hits the pavement. Assuming a similar level of spring stiffness in all 3 axles you should see every load in the system go up by a factor of about 3. So, if your spring tension was 400 lbs to start with then you would be at 1200 lbs spring tension, the presumed upper limit for 600 lb bars. If your spring tension was 800 lbs to start with then you would be at 2400 lbs, the max for my 1200 rated wd system. What this means is I think you want to pick your wdh rating based on your spring bar tension not directly on your tongue weight (or more accurately not based on your combined tongue weight plus the load behind your TV rear axle. How to know what your bar tension is? its pretty easy, the objective is to get the TV front axle weight back to where it was without the trailer. You can determine that using the towing calculator by first putting in all your numbers, then setting the trailer wt to 1 lb (it won't accept zero trailer wt), recording the front axle load, then putting the trailer wt back to your expected max trailer weight and adjusting the spring tension to give the same front axle load as in step 1. When I did this I came up with about 750 lbs wd tension, which would work out to about 2250 lbs bar tension at 3g, or 3.2g's at the point of spring bar failure for my current setup. If I dropped back to 800 lb bars I'd only be good for about 2.1 g's. A 1000 lb hitch rating would give me about 2.7g's. That would probably be perfect as the bars would fail before the trailer and TV frames and suspensions, but not way before. But I'm not way off with my 1200 lb rated system. The other thing to look for is a bouncy ride due to too stiff spring bars, but my ride feels pretty good and is well damped so I'm going to stay put for now. Everyone is going to have a different spring bar tension. If your bar tension is low and works out to say 450 lbs or less than a 600 lb rated wdh would be a better choice for you. https://www.ajdesigner.com/apptrailertow/weightdistributionhitch.php
	1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold

StephenH Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List podders Helping podders - pHp Joined: 29 Nov 2015 Location: Wake Forest, NC Online Status: Offline Posts: 6418	Posted: 21 Jan 2019 at 7:29pm
	Only factory built-in controllers had the problem so the recall was to fix that. The problem was that the factory controller might decide that the trailer was not connected and thus not apply brakes as needed. The recall was to address that. The Tekonsha Prodigy P2 is an aftermarket item and therefore was not affected by the problem. You are good to go. Still though, you may want to contact Hayes to see if it needs to have the recall applied. If so, the upgrade is done at no cost. http://www.hayesbc.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Sway-Master-NHTSA-Recall-18E-045.pdf
	StephenH Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS

Motor7 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 09 Jan 2019 Location: E. TN Online Status: Offline Posts: 196	Posted: 21 Jan 2019 at 7:04pm
	Well I picked up a Hayes on CL today for $150....I'll let y'all know my thoughts in a few weeks. I know it's over a year old, and I am running a Tekonsha Prodigy P2...was that in the recall?
	2016 R-Pod 176T

StephenH Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List podders Helping podders - pHp Joined: 29 Nov 2015 Location: Wake Forest, NC Online Status: Offline Posts: 6418	Posted: 21 Jan 2019 at 6:46pm
	Yes. Mine was one of the ones recalled because it was not compatible with the built-in trailer brake controller in some vehicles. The upgrade was to fix that. The upgraded unit no longer specifies that it is incompatible with built-in brake controllers. The Tuson controller can apply each side independently instead of together so it is more sophisticated. However, I had purchased the Hayes before I ever heard of the Tuson unit. The Hayes is a simple install. The Tuson specifies that it should be installed by a technician, not the end user.
	StephenH Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS

offgrid Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 23 Jul 2018 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5290	Posted: 21 Jan 2019 at 4:59pm
	Electronic stability control is standard equipment now on many vehicles. It combines individual wheel speed sensors, accelerometer(s), and steering wheel position sensors with independent brake force actuators to send the appropriate brake force to each wheel as required for conditions. So there's nothing wrong with the concept of controlling sway electronically. The Hayes system appears to be a relatively crude version of the same concept, crude because its using GPS rather than directly measuring wheel speed, and because its not controlling each wheel separately. That's not to say that the system can't provide benefits, I'd just proceed cautiously and would want to know more about how it operates. The devil is in the details. Personally, I'd be concerned about the way the system uses the GPS signal as there are many conditions where GPS fails to operate accurately. I also note that the system was recalled last summer for an upgrade because it wasn't compatible with some electronic trailer brake controllers.
	1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold

StephenH Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List podders Helping podders - pHp Joined: 29 Nov 2015 Location: Wake Forest, NC Online Status: Offline Posts: 6418	Posted: 21 Jan 2019 at 4:24pm
	My thoughts too. The mechanical can control only so much. If it gets to the point that the mechanical is insufficient, then the electronic can potentially prevent a disaster.The videos I have seen indicate that it does make towing much more stable even if the sway is not to the point of a near-accident.
	StephenH Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS

TheBum Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 26 Feb 2016 Location: Texas Online Status: Offline Posts: 1407	Posted: 21 Jan 2019 at 2:56pm
	I'd still be a little leery of electronic sway control. It can only compensate for sway after the trailer starts swaying. Conventional mechanical sway control prevents most sway from happening in the first place. A combination would be nice.
	Alan 2022 R-Pod 196 "RaptoRPod" 2022 Ram 1500 Lone Star 4x4 Three cats

weight distribution...again! - Event Date: 15 Jan 2019 - 15 Feb 2019